There will be no mirrorless camera body announced ahead of Photokina

[dtaylor]

Given that Nikon are generally a lot more generous with features compared to canon (take D850 vs 5D iv/5dsr for example),

The 5Ds bodies came out 3 years ago. Their competitor was the D810. They pretty much matched the D810 spec wise with the one obvious gain of 50 vs. 36 MP.

The D850 is also one year newer than the 5D IV. One could argue Nikon had to jump in hard with specs because the 5Ds/5Dsr/5DIV were doing so well.

 

[tamahome5555]

I think the reason Canon isn't announcing mirrorless on photokina is because they saw Nikon Z Series and Canon's are probably underwhelming compared to Nikon's offering. So they're taking their time to improve their FF mirrorless before they announce it.

 

[Don Haines]

I think the reason Canon isn't announcing mirrorless on photokina is because they saw Nikon Z Series and Canon's are probably underwhelming compared to Nikon's offering. So they're taking their time to improve their FF mirrorless before they announce it.

You realize that the specs for this camera were probably set three years ago? Also, Canon, Nikon, and Sony do industrial espionage on each other.... they probably know what is coming out several years ahead of release....

 

[neuroanatomist]

You realize that the specs for this camera were probably set three years ago? Also, Canon, Nikon, and Sony do industrial espionage on each other.... they probably know what is coming out several years ahead of release....

Most people have little to no understanding of how corporations operate.

 

[3kramd5]

Most people have little to no understanding of how corporations operate.

much less hardware development

 

[goldenhusky]

Yeah. Skin tones shouldn't be the priority. Neither should ergonomics or easy to navigate, logical, menu systems. Sony the gold standard? I guess # of paper specs make Sony the gold standard. Specs don't take photos. Specs don't make them good photos either. Good photos are your job. For all the "crippled" remarks about Canon, there's a reason Canon is #1... and it isn't because of the name label. It isn't "just because it's Canon."

I'm not defending Canon so much as expressing disdain and frustration with silly remarks and threads that seem to have had no thought behind them other than to %@#&* and moan. I am far from being a good photographer, but I don't sit around and hope that a camera "better" than what I have in my chosen system is going to somehow make me better. Apparently that is what most of the gearhead whiners must think.

Your opinion is that Sony is the "Gold Standard". My opinion is that nobody besides Sony (up to now) has had a FF camera in the FF mirrorless playground until now. It is easy to be the best screwdriver maker when nobody else is making screwdrivers. So, in my opinion, Sony and its FF mirrorless camera sucks. Without ever seeing one and without ever trying one I make that statement because, the truth is, that is the same experience of most people crying for a camera like the Sony. No first hand experience at all.

WilliamJ clearly said A73 is gold standard for specs never said Sony is gold standard for cameras. Sounds like you have issues with comprehension skills.

True, Specs don't don't take photos. Specs helps to get better pictures with ease and often saves time with post processing. e.g. instead of taking 3 shots and to process that in a software to get a picture with good dynamic range that can be achieved with one shot in a camera that has better dynamic range. Canon fan boys can never understand these things. So don't even try to understand that.

Skin tones, I have been using A9 and A7R3 for last 6 to 9 months and I have no complaints on the skin tones or colors on the Sony models I am using. I process pics to my liking using PS

Menu, unlike Canon and Nikon Sonys have more custom buttons and it is fairly easy to customize the buttons and menu . I have nothing to complain here either.

Yep from your dum post it is so clear you are not defending Canon. It it pretty foolish to assume that people who are not using Sony Cameras are commenting. Just because you have not used them. You fan boys have closed your eyes and swearing the world is dark. It is not dark just open your eyes.

His remarks are not silly it is your response that is silly and not thought out. IMO all fan boys (not just Canon, that applies for anything) are just dum heads which appears to be synonymous in your case.

Now before you say I am a troll, I have invested more in Canon than Sony. I did not buy a Sony out of excitement, I bought Sony with hesitation. In fact even today if Canon can release competitive cameras I would get rid of Sony. It was Canon's attitude of not even willing to compete forced me to buy a Sony mirroless camera with lots of hesitation but today I am happy with them I also bought a few E mount lenses to go with them. Today I grab the Sony Cameras more often than 5D4 because they are better tools for me and I enjoy using them. The only reason I still have Canon is 600 f/4. I have started to get rid of my Canon stuff at this point because I have no hope Canon will ever compete especially when they gain market share with lackluster cameras. It is just Canon' luck, marketing and their strategy of pretty giving away cameras works in their favor. I have explained Canon' strategy here

The Sony Cameras A9, A7r3, A73 are not just specs on paper as most Canon and Nikon fan things. They are serious tools. By no means I am Sony fan. Like I said above if Canon can deliver a camera that competes head on with a7r3 (5DsR is not that camera. Yes I have used that and felt thank God I did not buy this crap instead rented to see how it performs. Couldn't stand the noise and worst DR) I will buy in to that but there is no hope.

 

[Deleted member 380306]

Your opinion is that Sony is the "Gold Standard". My opinion is that nobody besides Sony (up to now) has had a FF camera in the FF mirrorless playground until now. It is easy to be the best screwdriver maker when nobody else is making screwdrivers. So, in my opinion, Sony and its FF mirrorless camera sucks. Without ever seeing one and without ever trying one I make that statement because, the truth is, that is the same experience of most people crying for a camera like the Sony. No first hand experience at all.

Apart from the Leica SL (Typ 601) was a FF mirrorless!

 

[Treyarnon]

I think the reason Canon isn't announcing mirrorless on photokina is because they saw Nikon Z Series and Canon's are probably underwhelming compared to Nikon's offering. So they're taking their time to improve their FF mirrorless before they announce it.

OR.... Canon were confident enough to let Nikon go first because they believe their camera will be better?

 

[rrcphoto]

The thing is, it’s not their first mirrorless..... the M series has been out for quite a while.... As a minimum, it’s just a case of using a larger sensor. The fact that they are taking a while to release it implies that it will be a significant improvement in features over the M... WiFi, articulated touchscreens, or any of the existing features are easy, they already have proven code for them.

My suspicions are either QPAF, or hybrid OIS/IBIS.... either of which would make this a force to be reckoned with...

Canon is into it's 5th generation of liveview, which is essentially the same as mirrorless from camera perspective sans EVF.

They are also in their 5th generation of EOS-M mirrorless and 3rd generation of EVF's, 3 generations of liveview in their full frame DSLR's as well.

The idea that they are starting from scratch with no prior experience is rather puzzling, but the negative narrative always seems to come from the same 2 or 3 people.

 

[rrcphoto]

e expect to see some lenses announced, but no camera bodies.
As we’ve mentioned previously, there is always a possibility of a “development announcement”.

This is rather dissappointing. it's is well time for a M5 Mark II to be released.

The DSLR's are probably held up waiting for DIGIC 8 to be designed into them and 4K h.264 added to the DSLR ecosystem. but there's no real reason why an M5 with updated AF, faster processor, 4K,etc isn't out the door yet, IMO.

 

[3kramd5]

Specs helps to get better pictures with ease and often saves time with post processing. e.g. instead of taking 3 shots and to process that in a software to get a picture with good dynamic range that can be achieved with one shot in a camera that has better dynamic range.

Which current camera has sufficient Dynamic Range to replace a 3-shot bracket of another current camera (same market, not like a MF digital versus an iPhone)?

Menu, unlike Canon and Nikon Sonys have more custom buttons and it is fairly easy to customize the buttons and menu . I have nothing to complain here either.

Agreed. I’m not fond of any camera menu system I’ve used, but with the 3rd gen Sony alpha cameras, the ability to map almost any function to almost any button is pretty powerful. Also, they added something akin to the MyMenu function which is the only place I ever go in my canon menus, so after the initial setup it’s basically square footing as far as I’m concerned.

The notion that sony’s interface sucks is as antiquated (refer to the 3G cameras: A9, A7iii, A7Riii) as the notion that canon can’t deliver near class-leading Dynamic Range (refer to DCRAW from the 5Div).

 

[Del Paso]

Yeah. Skin tones shouldn't be the priority. Neither should ergonomics or easy to navigate, logical, menu systems. Sony the gold standard? I guess # of paper specs make Sony the gold standard. Specs don't take photos. Specs don't make them good photos either. Good photos are your job. For all the "crippled" remarks about Canon, there's a reason Canon is #1... and it isn't because of the name label. It isn't "just because it's Canon."

I'm not defending Canon so much as expressing disdain and frustration with silly remarks and threads that seem to have had no thought behind them other than to %@#&* and moan. I am far from being a good photographer, but I don't sit around and hope that a camera "better" than what I have in my chosen system is going to somehow make me better. Apparently that is what most of the gearhead whiners must think.

Your opinion is that Sony is the "Gold Standard". My opinion is that nobody besides Sony (up to now) has had a FF camera in the FF mirrorless playground until now. It is easy to be the best screwdriver maker when nobody else is making screwdrivers. So, in my opinion, Sony and its FF mirrorless camera sucks. Without ever seeing one and without ever trying one I make that statement because, the truth is, that is the same experience of most people crying for a camera like the Sony. No first hand experience at all.

Sorry!
But Sony is in fact the Gold Standard since:
-Their handling is the worst
-Their menus are horrible
-They offer the poorest wheatherproofing of all "professional" FF cameras

I often get the feeling that Canon should stop producing reliability and excellent handling in favour of beautiful spec-sheets.
Spec-sheets really are a huge help in the wilderness...

 

[transpo1]

Most people have little to no understanding of how corporations operate.

Some product specs can be tweaked and changed in 6 months if need be. Most people don’t understand how Agile product development and iteration works

 

[Respinder]

I think Canon made the right move here. Nikon seemed to get everything right with the Z-series, but with the omission of a "minor" component that clearly has major implications; the second memory card slot. As a result, they are now facing an unprecedented backlash - the likes of which I've never seen applied to even the worst Canon releases, and that negative backlash has spilled over into other gripes concerning the camera (i.e. pre-production issues with AF, lack of eye-AF, and now the new thing being lack of buttons on the unreleased battery grip, meaning no vertical orientation). I feel pretty bad for Nikon right now. But at the same time, I think Canon needs to ingest all of this and realize that they cannot simply come to the market with another "just okay" mirrorless - they've got to be serious and put all their cards in.

I also feel that Nikon got a lot of backlash over their lenses - namely the lack of native ones, despite the fact that there is an adapter that works very well with F-mount lenses. So clearly, even with an adapter, people just looked at the native lenses. I think this further substantiates the argument that Canon must stick to a native EF mount for the mirrorless.

One suggestion I've seen around these forums is to make a mechanism that accepts two styles of EF lenses - one with the normal distance from lens to sensor (i.e. 44mm) and the other; a sharper form of EF lens for mirrorless, with a distance of 16mm or shorter between lens to sensor, and the mechanism would automatically adjust the flange focal distance depending on what lens is inserted into the camera. The question is how reliable would this mechanism be over time?

Unlike Nikon, who had a definitive need to move on from the F mount, due to a number of practical limitations, I do not think Canon needs to do the same with the EF mount, which is similar in diameter to Nikon's new Z mount. Canon needs to think carefully of their next move, and if it means more time before release, then thats what they should do. I'd rather have them put in the time/effort rather than release a rushed job, knowing that they too, like Nikon, will be getting one chance to get it right (first impressions clearly DO matter).

 

[nchoh]

I mean an overall superior product, and of course like everyone else here, it is of course my opinion. Canon's DPAF is already the best AF system, but Canon's video performance has been among the worst for years now (cinema line excepted). Some of Canon's omissions are perplexing, like no focus peaking in some cameras while it is added to others lower down the lineup (M6), adding C1 and C2 modes to the M but not to the 77D. A lot of us need an all around photo/video solution in a small package. Nikon's Z6 may be the ticket, but reviews will tell the story. If Canon can add the a full articulating screen, DPAF, video tools (zebra, peaking, 120p, 4K ... all should be considered standards today), color science to the Z6 that would be awesome.
When Canon gets it right, they can hit it out of the park, some of their lenses for instance are awesome, the 5D2 set a new standard at the time, but they appear to be dragging their heels on the FF mirrorless, even the M series doesn't appear to be a fully-committed effort so far but maybe the mark II rounds will tighten that up.
I will probably need a lightweight full frame package by the end of this year, and I had been hoping that Canon would be in the mix. I am not comfortable jumping in on the Z6 prior to full reviews, so that leave Sony A7 III, or a possible A7s III if it gets released really soon.
I'll buy the EF-M 32mm f/1.4 for sure, but the M series isn't that great in low light, which is important to me. But the M6 is handy has a cheap pocket camera that I don't worry about.
Anyways, rambling thoughts

The EF-M versions of the 28 f3.5 macro and one other lens came out before the EF-S version leads me to believe that Canon is serious about the M.

 

[transpo1]

Seems like there is still a lot of conflicting information out there- my guess is, anything can still happen.

https://www.canonwatch.com/some-new-canon-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-talk-28mp-1900-ibis/

 

[3kramd5]

Product specs can be tweaked and changed in 6 months if need be. Most people don’t understand how Agile product development and iteration works

Very few major corporations practice Agile for hardware. Bosch does with some of its product. Does canon?

 

[Kit.]

Product specs can be tweaked and changed in 6 months if need be. Most people don’t understand how Agile product development and iteration works

Product specs can change every day, if you product specs team is agile enough.

The product itself cannot, if it is an electronic hardware product.

 

[3kramd5]

Nikon seemed to get everything right with the Z-series, but ... negative backlash has spilled over into other gripes concerning the camera (i.e. pre-production issues with AF...

That their issues with AF (and the small buffer) are limited to pre-production is merely an assumption. Given that the Z7 is due to be available in September, it’s unlikely that the camera is not in production now. Software may still be in work, but how long do they have to wrap it up before they must get it loaded, QC the cameras, and ship them out?

It’s entirely possible that the AF and buffer nuances aren’t software-related and will exist on production cameras. They act much like the Sony 2G cameras (A7II, a7rii, a7sii), which isn’t bad for Nikon’s first attempt in the market.

 

[scyrene]

canon is surely going to cripple theirs in quite a few ways

Yawn.