Interview: Talking with Canon about the EOS R system and its future
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Canon and Sony approached autofocus from two completely different points of view. It will take Canon's route longer to pay off, but it is the future.
Sony doubled the amount of processing power their sensors could handle, allowing for faster data output and faster autofocus. Their hybrid AF is essentially pulling twice the data from focus points using a stacked sensor with double the output. This is why the A9 is a beast at continual AF and FPS shots.
Canon created a new AF system called Dual Pixel Auto Focus. It essentially doubles the amount of data but outputs at the same speed to the sensor. This is one of the big reasons DPAF sensors have a data and heat limitation for video and high FPS shots. However, the advantage to using a split pixel detecting distance in parallax is the ability to detect the range of out-of-focus objects while focusing on an object. By being able to detect the range of objects in a shot, Canon is able to smoothly move between points. This is the biggest advantage of DPAF and it is helping their Cine EOS line by giving filmmakers the ability rack focus smoothly using autofocus.
When Sony or Nikon racks focus it has to hunt for a moment to find the depth of objects as it goes from one in-focus point to the next. This is a different scenario than capturing a moving object and tracking. This is moving from one extreme foreground element to a background element. Hybrid AF does not have the ability to know the depth between objects until it switches focal points. DPAF is able to see ranges within the shot which is why is glides effortlessly between points.
They're different approaches and they speak to the different strengths for each company. As production teams get smaller and smaller, systems like DPAF will be helping filmmakers and journalists capture cinematic quality moments without the need for additional equipment in the field. Sony will be hitting a wall for speed of glass soon that both Nikon and Canon have leapt past with their wider flange size. Perhaps they'll go the route and create a full professional medium format mirrorless to compete with Hasselblad and Phase One. Either way, we are close to another revolutionary leap forward in photography technology.
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So DPAF is great for sports! If you’re Tony Northrup...
(Not really a comment on your post, just that your statement put me in mind of a TN ‘infotainment/commercial’ —the first...and last...TN video I ever watched— where he compared the ‘sports performance’ of the D800 and 5DIII and concluded that the D800 was much better for sports; sports in his contex was his subject/wife walking towards him.)
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I can see the in-VF histogram, etc., being a big deal. But removing a couple stops of vignetting? Doesn’t seem impactful, unless the problem is severely magnified by the VF being compressed to 8-bit, but I doubt that’s the case.
It's more along the lines of, you can see the full completed photo live. The Digic 8 processor renders out a live image for you to look through and compose. This opens the door to other creative additions, like live HDR viewing, live double exposure composing (I don't mean just a gimmicky overlay), and live image preset view. It has the ability to expand functionality going forward while also removing one more step from your workflow. This feature could have huge implications in a studio setting where a client sees a near complete and color adjusted image live on a tethered display all done on the camera.
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I don't think that anyone will disagree with this. Canon selling video cameras with low mp count most likely explain why they invested in DPAF even at the opportunity cost of not investing elsewhere. In that application it's just better.
That said, the idea that cameras using masked PDAF point necessarily hunt in video just no longer stack up to reality. Smooth AF pulls are possible with other cameras than Canon.
A more direct negative consequence of masked pixels is the phenomenon that's been called "pixel stripping", but even it can vary widely depending on implementation.
And finally issues with interpolation - again most likely what drove Canon towards DPAF as video sensors with low mp counts may suffer more from this.
I'm wondering if 8K may or may not produce a convergence of technologies, as we'll need both for video and photo a lot of pixels, quickly read.
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Yes, all that is interesting and potentially feasible. But all of that is implied...none of that explains how, “Pulling the vignetting out from F/1.2 or F/2 lenses live in the EVF is a big deal.” Probably you chose not to address that because you realize that it’s not really a big deal at all.
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The ability to output this information is a few years away. The difference between cine bodies and stills bodies will have more to do with the amount of color information, not just the density of the sensor data. Look at the RED Monster which is getting 17+ steps of dynamic range while shooting insane color depth at 8K between 60--75fps. I don't expect stills cameras to reach that level, but a lower color data output of 8bit at 29.97 is possible in the next 5 years at 6-8K.
The thing I am constantly reminding people about is that 4K is overkill 99% of hobby shooters. It requires much larger file storage, faster computing, faster editing, and time demands to render. It's a royal pain in my ass when most of the content viewed on the web or tv is still in 1080p. Even to get the advantages of full 4K 10bit output, you need an external recording device with SSD blades. That setup can easily cost more than the camera.
It is a big deal dependent on the application and the shooter. It's probably not a big deal for the point-and-shoot hobbyist. It is a big deal when composing landscape shots for fine art and in a studio, especially when working with clients. We are getting to a point where the workflow will be achieved in camera, allowing us to cut down our post-work. If this happens live, even better. No more looking at the viewfinder on the back to see how the shot came out AND no more battery loss to having that damn preview screen on when I can do nearly everything in the EVF.
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EOS R, is it positively an EOS 5D class camera?
Mr. Kiyota : I believe so. (Google Translated)
This is like a Rorschach test. Note that the question referred to "5D class". Not 5DIV or anything else. Depending on your psychological state, you could interpret this to mean that a Canon spokesman considers the R to be a 5DIV equivalent camera (which is ridiculous, because it is not), or an enthusiast level FF camera, or something else altogether. Trying to divine what features Canon will include in future EOS R cameras is a fun exercise, but Canon is not telling us anything that will be helpful to getting that guess right. The same goes for trying to predict lens releases from a presentation slide that is absolutely devoid of any real information. Canon does not do roadmaps.
Mr. Kiyota : I believe so. (Google Translated)
This is like a Rorschach test. Note that the question referred to "5D class". Not 5DIV or anything else. Depending on your psychological state, you could interpret this to mean that a Canon spokesman considers the R to be a 5DIV equivalent camera (which is ridiculous, because it is not), or an enthusiast level FF camera, or something else altogether. Trying to divine what features Canon will include in future EOS R cameras is a fun exercise, but Canon is not telling us anything that will be helpful to getting that guess right. The same goes for trying to predict lens releases from a presentation slide that is absolutely devoid of any real information. Canon does not do roadmaps.
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That interview comes across as very marketing orientated - so the language should perhaps be taken with a pinch of salt.
When the features, build and price of the R are taken into account - the camera fits right into that '6D' market segment.
However, given the 5D4 sensor - it not surprising that the marketing department are selling the R as 'like a 5D4'
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In one of the Canon's promo videos there are several RF-looking lenses. They may very well be dummies (and probably are!), but they kind of make sense and match the mentioned f/2.8 and rumored f/2 zooms as well as some expected primes.
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they need to stop bitching about 8K, I mean first get 4K right. This interview is all BS, just giving us hopes about future and nothing to deliver at the present.
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Agreed. But this isn't just about 4K. It's about fps with AF. It's about bit depth in continuous mode. It's about getting a liveview feed in between frames. It's about getting a silent shutter with a sufficiently fast scan time. Readout speed isn't just to provide FF 4K. With mirrorless cameras, it's also an operational benefit.
Personally I couldn't care less for 4K video at the moment. But I do care when I don't get a liveview feed in continuous mode (I find that far more problematic than 1fps more or less or a slightly dodgy AF), and I find silent shutters with a fast enough scan time awfully tempting.
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My implication was that the EOS R was a 5DIV-equivalent in the form of mirrorless, and therefore, would be expected to have dual card slots as the 5D IV currently possesses.
Very true - my mistake
That must be the case. But given the level of disdain many Canikon DSLR users dished out to Sony users prior to the release of the A7R III, A9, and A7 III regarding single card slots, my expectation is that Canon could have anticipated the backlash. The feedback in western media is relatively universal - a single card slot in a camera, whether entry-level or professional-level, is a design flaw at this point. I've heard many reviewers and photographers say a single card slot isn't the end of the world, but none of them said it was a good idea - two us always better than one.
Cameras for many years have come equipped with WiFi and bluetooth. Many of them can stream JPEGs to a smartphone wirelessly via an app, but I haven't heard of one that streams them automatically after the shutter button is pressed, and sends the RAW image files in the process. Maybe one exists, but Canon Camera Connect only sends JPEG as far as I know. A camera doesn't need a cellular antenna to achieve cloud redundancy, it just needs an option to allow for a constant synchronous connection to a close smartphone that can in turn perform those operations once the transfer to the phone is complete.
So you have a choice - quality photos with single back-up or phone with 5 back-ups. Care to photograph a wedding with a phone and tell the bride 'don;t worry, I have got 5 copies'?
FYI - you have named 4 levels of redundancy, not 5
Or more accurately... Quality photos with another camera brand offering a similar product, at a similar price, with redundant backup capabilities. My phone analogy was exactly that, an analogy. Good catch on the redundancy levels though.
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as long as we dont vehemently demand them. and as long as stupid journalists do not explicitly ask for real information in every interview with Canon exec muppets.
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I don't follow your logic on it being a 'serious setback'. Whether Canon are calling this an equivalent to their 5DIV (are they?) then that still does not say they will not have dual card slots in the higher model.
And Panasonic, and Olympus....
It would be interesting to find out what feedback Canon/Nikon have received for them to omit dual cards - Thom Hogan wrote that the obsession with dual-card is very much a Western Europe/US thing and it is nowhere near the same deal in Asia. My guess is that they intend the EOS R to be a second camera rather than a pro's main camera.
That is because phones have a connectivity that no (repeat NO) camera manufacture has built in yet - which suggests there are serious technical issues to overcome. So being 'disturbed' about something that apparently is not possible seems rather....over-sensitive to me.
So you have a choice - quality photos with single back-up or phone with 5 back-ups. Care to photograph a wedding with a phone and tell the bride 'don;t worry, I have got 5 copies'
FYI - you have named 4 levels of redundancy, not 5
It isn’t so much technical issues as financial ones. It costs $130 to add both GPS and LTE to an iPad. Likely, something like that would be true for a camera. And where to put the antenna in an all metal body? But the biggest problem is that carriers would charge a monthly fee for LTE service, just as they do for my iPad, and Watch. How many people are willing to pay for the extra circuitry AND a monthly fee for something they won’t use all that much?
Not very many.
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If only for the codecs / new Digic / C-log without paying an extra / new features such as focus assist, it's better actually. That said things have moved on and the 5DIV's level of video capability may not cut it for everyone at the R's price.
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