Interview: Understanding the Canon EOS R

[neuroanatomist]

No forward thinking at Canon? Really?

I'm looking for higher dynamic range and better high iso performance, IBIS or IS in EVERY lens, 1080p 120fps, 4k with minimal crop.

in·no·va·tion ˌinəˈvāSH(ə)n/ noun
1. things that I personally want

Said no dictionary...ever.

 

[Roy Hunte]

No forward thinking at Canon? Really? These may not ALL be Canon inventions but:

air sphere coatings

fluorine coatings

blue spectrum refractive optics

UD glass, Super UD glass

sub-wavelength structure coating

an 11-24 mm zoom

A fish-eye zoom lens!!!

A 28-70 f2.0 for crying out loud!!!

What are you looking for? IBIS? Is that it? They put 5 stops of IS in lenses and that ain't enough? Sure they don't ALL do that, but for every omission of great ILIS they offer a version WITH.

Sorry to un-load on you, nothing personal, but I read ad nauseam the mass perception that Canon is just sitting on their hands, raking in the cash with no regard for their customers. I use their cameras to make my living because there is NO ONE ELSE making what I need (excellent TS lenses) and backing their dependable-like-no-one-else's technology with the very best support. I shudder to think what I'd do if Canon abandoned rock-solid usable hardware to chase after every techno-feature the blog-o-sphere fancies this week.

Rant over. Apologies in advance.

You missed one item of forward thinking on Canon's part, the Speedlite 470EX-AI. The first ever external flash with a powered head. I own one and it works beautifully.

 

[gmon750]

None of that is at all surprising. They used existing/old technology and therefore have all of the limitations of their current camera systems now present in their brand new mirrorless.

I know many people will defend anything Canon does, but there is no question that Canon offers much less for the money vs. their competitors. And with the EOS R, they have clearly committed to continuing this.

I've only ever used Canon. I like my Canon cameras. But I also like the benefits of new technology and forward thinking. I unfortunately have to take a loss on my glass collection as I transition to a competing brand. EOS R is not a bad camera, it's just not a great camera. And at it's price point, it offers poor value. :/

Yeah... because your current Canon camera is suddenly useless and no longer able to take great shots. Of course it’s the camera, and not the photographer.

Whatever. I’m invested in Canon as well and will happily continue using mine until a proper Mirrorless version arrives. I don’t understand the rush with people like you.

 

[ecpu]

in·no·va·tion ˌinəˈvāSH(ə)n/ noun
1. things that I personally want

Said no dictionary...ever.

Yes, they are innovative features that I happen to want/need.

Defend Canon all you want. They are behind the competition in many aspects regarding modern mirrorless features and performance. It's quite clear at this point.

 

[sebasan]

Stop feeding the trolls...

 

[Dantana]

If they gave me faster glass with IS I would be happy to forego the lack of IBIS. I need a 35mm f1.4 IS, 16-35 f2.8 IS, 24-70 f2.8 IS.
For me, the IS is more for video work.

Speaking of video, one of the most difficult things to accept with the EOS R is the lack of 1080p 120fps. Give this thing 1080p 120 fps and release a bunch of IS glass and I think it would be a real competitor when you consider Canon's ergonomics and colors. Lower DR and ISO performance would be easier to accept if those other features were there.

I'm curious what it is that you're shooting that these are your requirements.

 

[Roy Hunte]

Speaking of video, one of the most difficult things to accept with the EOS R is the lack of 1080p 120fps. Give this thing 1080p 120 fps and release a bunch of IS glass and I think it would be a real competitor when you consider Canon's ergonomics and colors. Lower DR and ISO performance would be easier to accept if those other features were there.

1080p 120fps may come with a firmware update sometime in the future.

 

[Roy Hunte]

As much as I like to praise the competitions bodies, I can't say the same for glass. I love my Canon L glass. I think Canon makes the best lenses on the market. But given the lack of IBIS with EOS R, if I have to start buying a bunch of new RF lenses to get IS (assuming Canon will offer these lenses), then I might as well consider other bodies that have better features.

Remember this is Canon's first foray into FF Mirrorless, give them a chance.

 

[ecpu]

1080p 120fps may come with a firmware update sometime in the future.

That would be interesting. Hopefully they are able to do that.

 

[Roy Hunte]

That would be interesting. Hopefully they are able to do that.

They say the first firmware update is coming November, apparently opening up silent shot and continuous AF in Burst Mode and 'some tweaks to video' will have to see what those 'tweaks' are.
BTW I have preordered one to replace my highly inadequate Rebel T6/1300D so whatever it is will be an upgrade for me.

 

[Buck]

I think this is consistent with Canon, introduce some new technology but include old technology to keep it reliable. Had they come out with a new camera with a bunch of totally new, unproven technology and it failed in the field they didn't want the pr hit. Put a new body and mount into the market, prove that the results are good, maybe even better and the camera is reliable, continue to work on new technology to move the new platform forward.
Take for example the overheating issues, the actual users who experienced overheating woud be all over Canon for releasing a camera with a known design flaw.

 

[Mikehit]

Yes, they are innovative features that I happen to want/need.

Defend Canon all you want. They are behind the competition in many aspects regarding modern mirrorless features and performance. It's quite clear at this point.

And Sony are behind in others regards taking pictures - you say it is the output that mattes, well Canon gear will get you images that the Sony has a reduced chance of getting and in that respect, Sony is behind the competition in many aspects. The question is what are your preferred balance of attributes?

And who is defending Canon?

 

[jhpeterson]

Much less? That depends on your perspective. Sony being unable or unwilling to weather seal their bodies is Sony offering "much less for the money" in my book. You date a body but marry a lens collection. Since I can't trust Sony weather sealing claims on their bodies why should I trust them when it comes to their lenses? Is that a long term investment I would ever want to make?

Weather sealing, or rather the lack of it, is a dealbreaker for me. Until a manufacturer comes up with something better than the 1D series bodies I'm using, I'll be content with my outdated sensors.
It doesn't matter how many pixels or stops of dynamic range the camera delivers if it stops working in the middle of a shoot. What counts for me is the images I can show the client.

 

[MayaTlab]

1080p 120fps may come with a firmware update sometime in the future.

Highly unlikely given what is the most likely cause of that limitation (sensor readout speed).

 

[FramerMCB]

I think it's just a matter of curiosity. But I Agree. Canon is likely going to be behind for quite some time. If we want/need modern features and performance, we have to face the fact that we must move on.

I think part of Canon's "issues" with this whole mirrorless 'phenomenon' is that they treated it more like a novelty - something that only the younger, and new'ish' to photography, generation was interested in and that their other, smaller offerings would keep happy/meet-their-needs (hence the "M" series, and then the G7... and M50, M10, M100, and so forth).

Then, they began to wake up a little bit when Sony really went all-in on FF mirrorless and a little more when Sony went bonkers on fleshing out a comparable lens line-up to fill Pro needs - enough so that sales started to move and swing to Sony. And Sony didn't care (or seem to) about cannibalizing new/current model sales to introduce new bodies/products. Canon (and Nikon) has (had) one philosophy/approach and Sony has another approach. What will be super-interesting is what will happen to this FF mirrorless space when the RUMORED new Panasonic FF is announced and then released. I don't think that anyone who knows anything about 4K /Video in SLR type bodies would say that Sony is better than Panasonic when it comes to 4K/video know-how in a small yet competent form-factor.

As Canon users, many of us are hoping madly that Canon awoke in time to divvy up the proper amount of funding for further sensor development. And why they haven't figured out a way to offer more body options w/o the low-pass filter. I personally think it has something to do with a CMOS vs. Backlit sensor (like Sony, Panny, and Fuji have been using variants of... But I'm not very technically savvy in this area.

 

[Roy Hunte]

I think this is consistent with Canon, introduce some new technology but include old technology to keep it reliable. Had they come out with a new camera with a bunch of totally new, unproven technology and it failed in the field they didn't want the pr hit. Put a new body and mount into the market, prove that the results are good, maybe even better and the camera is reliable, continue to work on new technology to move the new platform forward.
Take for example the overheating issues, the actual users who experienced overheating woud be all over Canon for releasing a camera with a known design flaw.

Exactly, professionally cautious describes Canon.

 

[takesome1]

No need to apologize.

I'm looking for higher dynamic range and better high iso performance, IBIS or IS in EVERY lens, 1080p 120fps, 4k with minimal crop.

The point I am making is that EOS R is up against cameras that do this stuff for less money.

Here is the flaw you in your point. Camera bodies alone do not take pictures.

You can set the camera spec sheets side by side and compare what one has the other doesn't.
You have only made the comparison of the body.
For me those differences you named are inconsequential as each can be easily countered with skill and effort.

Without comparing the lens with components that you need to do what you want you only have a small slice of the picture. Whether the system is cheaper overall matters, not the few hundred dollars additional a body will cost you.
You then have to compare what the system as a whole does for you.
I know everyone has different needs and budgets, but for me that few hundred dollars difference is less than 1% of my outlay for gear.

Questions to answer.
What will I save in gear cost if I switch?
Will it cost me more?
What IQ can I expect with this other camera if I have to use different lenses?

 

[kkamena]

I cannot believe it is 2018 and Sony has not put out a DPAF camera yet. If their next camera does not have this then they are doomed and every one will switch back to canon.

Sony is 5 years behind Canon when it comes to sensor technology, Canon has had this since 2013.

Sony is such a ripoff trying to sell its a9 for over $4k without DPAF when canon has it in its rebel line for less than $800. It 2018 every camera should have this by now.

All real photographers know that autofocus is the only important thing, so if Sony cannot catchup to Canon in the very next release I am switching brands.
Don’t get me wrong, I have been shooting Sony for like 3 months and am sooooo loyal, but you know they are just behind.

Ps. I can not belive Sony crippeled its camera with less than 500 AF points.

 

[ecpu]

And Sony are behind in others regards taking pictures - you say it is the output that mattes, well Canon gear will get you images that the Sony has a reduced chance of getting and in that respect, Sony is behind the competition in many aspects. The question is what are your preferred balance of attributes?

And who is defending Canon?

You are defending canon along with others that bring up that same Sony argument over and over. I never once said Sony is a perfect camera. It too has issues. In fact my original post had nothing to do with Sony whatsoever. I have been pointing out the fact that Canon's sensor tech and feature set of the EOS R FF mirrorless is generally behind the competition. Are the ergonomics better on Canon? Yep. Are the colors better? Yep. Is the sensor and video performance better? Nope.

The sensor and video performance lack compared to the competition. It's a fact. Not an unjust attack on Canon and not a promotion for Sony or any other manufacturer.

 

[Talys]

Yes, they are innovative features that I happen to want/need.

Defend Canon all you want. They are behind the competition in many aspects regarding modern mirrorless features and performance. It's quite clear at this point.

It's fair for you to want those features, but at this point, they're just features. There's nothing innovative about adding a feature that someone else already put into their device. Like, if Apple released a smartphone with curved edges, or Samsung added a notch, or one of them added another camera with a different FL, none of that would be innovative, even though you might want it.

It's much more accurate to say that going into 2019, each camera manufacturer's offerings has distinct differentiators and a feature mix that the others don't. Mirrorless full frame cameras aren't same-y... yet... because the market is youthful. So, buy the one you want for today, or just wait a few years, and like DSLRs have become, they'll all be very similar (and you'll be able to get more for less money). Or don't.

Either way, it's only innovation if it's some new idea.

You are defending canon along with others that bring up that same Sony argument over and over. I never once said Sony is a perfect camera. It too has issues. In fact my original post had nothing to do with Sony whatsoever. I have been pointing out the fact that Canon's sensor tech and feature set of the EOS R FF mirrorless is generally behind the competition. Are the ergonomics better on Canon? Yep. Are the colors better? Yep. Is the sensor and video performance better? Nope.

The sensor and video performance lack compared to the competition. It's a fact. Not an unjust attack on Canon and not a promotion for Sony or any other manufacturer.

The 5D4 has a fine sensor, and if someone can't generate award-winning, amazing photographs from it, the problem is behind the viewfinder. Are Sony or Nikon sensors better? In some ways, yes, yet in other ways, it is clearly inferior. But we are at the point where flagship sensors are so good that for most photographers, professional or otherwise, they're all great sensors, and certainly good enough.

I can't speak to video, as I would much rather use a camcorder or smartphone to record video than any camera.