APS-C Canon EOS R body likely [CR2]

Jul 31, 2018
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There is no upgrade path from M to R.

not needed.

there would also be no upgrade path from an APS-C sensored EOS R model with crop-only RF lenses to FF EOS R models and FF lenses. Buying FF lenses for crop cameras or using crop lenses on FF sensor cameras is no "upgrade path" it is a stop gap measure at best.

Reality is: going from crop to FF, requires buying new, different, larger, more expensive gear to utilize FF potential.

Personally i would rather want to upgrade from an inexpensive EOS M set to FF compared to 1. first sinking substantial money into "crop EOS R camera" plus "crop RF-S" lenses" and then 2. spend a lot more money again to buy into FF EOS R lineup.

Either crop gear for "small, inexpensive and somewhat limited photographic capabilities". or FF gear with "more photographic capabilities (depending on use case) , bigger size and bigger price.

Nobody would ask for an "upgrade path" from Fuji C (APS-C) to Fuji GFX or for Panasonic mFT to upcoming Panasonic FF gear (SR-1, SR-2). Only a few of the people who once bought Canon EF lenses for their crop cameras because "one day they might eventually switch to FF" (* have this strange notion of an "upgrade path".

(* i did that too. but i realized since that the "upgrade path" is not really one.
 
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Yeah, it’s weird, but I know nothing about marketing either.....

Another thing I would expect to eventually see are some pancakes...... that would make a light and compact package!

I'm sure smaller lenses are coming, but again I think Canon would argue if size is your limiting factor, go for the M series :)
 
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The upgrade path has always been there. XXXD/XXD/7D owners do often own a mix of EF-S and EF lenses or completely EF lenses. It makes taking that step to the 5D/6D easier and attractive if you want to go FF. However even if you don’t want to make that step you get to keep access to some superb EF lenses particularly on the telephoto end. EOS M would be a step down for many and as everything moves to RF you lose access to the future great lenses. An EOS M lens will never be as good as an RF lens and for me I wouldn’t be happy with an EOS M but I want to upgrade slowly over time with RF. This means keeping my Sigma 18-35, 70-300L etc. and as new lenses come out and my budget permits I can start picking up RF lenses.
 
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Jul 31, 2018
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... I want to upgrade slowly over time with RF. This means keeping my Sigma 18-35, 70-300L etc. and as new lenses come out and my budget permits I can start picking up RF lenses.

no problem. All it takes is purchase of an EOS R body. All EF lenses will keep working. All EF-S/crop glass and most 3rd party crop lenses - will also keep working ... in crop mode. One can keep the EOS DSLR as well. All those lenses work on all EOS DSLRs and R cameras. I also believe that using an EOS R with FF glass [EF or RF] and cropping in post/software to "APS-C size" will yield at least as good if not better IQ than using a 7D2.

And nobody is forced to "move down" to EOS M, as a matter of fact even the inexpensive, "entry level" M50 would be a clear upgrade for all EOS Rebel + EF-S owners. In terms of IQ, sensor, AF [eg Eye Tracking, AF points across entire frame, etc.], viewfinder, handling, size, weight, noise. And EF-M lenses are often superior to EF-S glass. Notably EF-M 11-22, 22/2, 28/3.5, 32/1.4, 18-55. :)

For most use cases I'd also rate an M50 "better" than an EOS 80D. I also hope, that upcoming Canon "EOS M5 II" or whatever the "top M model" may be called, will be fully on par with Fuji XT3. Then it will also blow 7D II out of the water. :)
 
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I sure would love to see a 7D equivalent in the R-lineup.

Currently I shoot a 6D and 7d (both first iteration) with a 24-70 F/4, 70-200 F/4 and 400 F/5.6, which when doing nature and wildlife shots, get mounted in different configurations.
Having an EOS R and a hypothetical M5 Mark II would mean that I could never upgrade to an RF 24-70 or RF 70-200, as I couldn't mount those on the M5 Mark II.

To me, having a single high MP camera that can do fast fps in crop mode isn't feasible, as it would be rather expensive and on safaris I prefer shooting with two bodies anyway. I would much rather by an EOS R and a 7D equivalent in the R-line than a single 1Dx equivalent body.
 
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no problem. All it takes is purchase of an EOS R body. All EF lenses will keep working. All EF-S/crop glass and most 3rd party crop lenses - will also keep working ... in crop mode. One can keep the EOS DSLR as well. All those lenses work on all EOS DSLRs and R cameras. I also believe that using an EOS R with FF glass [EF or RF] and cropping in post/software to "APS-C size" will yield at least as good if not better IQ than using a 7D2.

And nobody is forced to "move down" to EOS M, as a matter of fact even the inexpensive, "entry level" M50 would be a clear upgrade for all EOS Rebel + EF-S owners. In terms of IQ, sensor, AF [eg Eye Tracking, AF points across entire frame, etc.], viewfinder, handling, size, weight, noise. And EF-M lenses are often superior to EF-S glass. Notably EF-M 11-22, 22/2, 28/3.5, 32/1.4, 18-55. :)

For most use cases I'd also rate an M50 "better" than an EOS 80D. I also hope, that upcoming Canon "EOS M5 II" or whatever the "top M model" may be called, will be fully on par with Fuji XT3. Then it will also blow 7D II out of the water. :)
I definitely think that is a possibility. Currently the resolution is too low in crop mode. It needs to be in the mid 20s/early 30s.
 
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Apology gladly accepted and pardon my gruff reply. I do get a little put off by people making factual statements that are untrue. Ridiculous opinions, on the other hand, abound in mass quantities and must be endured. We have a local atmospheric disturbance with limitless "insights."
P.S. Welcome to CR :)
Thank you ;)
I've been following this site for some time, hoping to finally see a 7D3 trustable hint but never had anything to post before.
Back on topic, I don't know what Canon is up to, but after some years of disapointment in the field that I'm interested into (high end crop sensor for wildlife), it'd better be good because I don't have enough glass to feel married to the brand.
 
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Jul 30, 2010
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There is nothing wrong to run R (FF) and M (APS-C) parralllel. Just like the situation of EF and EF-M now. M system is cheap enough to be left alone when some one wants to up grade to R. Then the old M system becomes a back up and/or easy to carry travel system. Personally, I do not agree that going from xxxD and xxD to M is a step down.
 
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Although I'm a generation behind, that is certainly how I use my 7D. I don't even own an EF-S lens.

So why couldn't Canon introduce a 50MP, 9FPS FF camera that could also crop to a 19MP, 24FPS APS-C camera and bin pixels 2x2 to create a 12.5MP, 24FPS FF Lord of Darkness camera? Would that make a worthy replacement for the 1Dx2 at the 2020 Summer Olympics?

So why are you shooting on a 7D instead of buying a 5DSR and shooting it in crop mode? BTW having a high MP sensor and tossing most of the pixels will not make it a low light beast. It will be a worst of all worlds camera. High cost, poor low light, low image quality.

no problem. ...

I would disagree with every thing you said. The M is a tourist camera. It is not designed for the abuse of heavy users and if you look at the patents Canon keeps producing for future M lenses it will never be a platform for the people that have been shooting 7Ds and 80Ds. If I look at the M lens line up I see [email protected]+(5.6+ FF eq) , [email protected]+( 7.2+ FF eq), 1@F2( 3.2 FF eq) and [email protected](2.24FF eq) Sure it is an upgrade if you are shooting an SL2 with the kit lens but that's about it. I doubt many photographers shooting either a 7D or a 80D are shooting on the (runs to dig in the back of the closet) 18-35 F3.5 kit lens. The only reason I still have my kit lenses is in case a friend (or their kid) is starting out in photography I would just give them away. Now they aren't even fit for that purpose.
 
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snappy604

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Jan 25, 2017
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As stated earlier because your down to 11MP in crop mode on the R. I didn't buy lenses capable of 50MP resolution to then shoot 11MP images. I would probably be better off shooting with my cell phone and cropping instead of zooming at that point.

wasn't aware of any EF-S lenses capable of 50MP :)

the old 17-55mm 2.8IS is pretty decent (I use it all the time), but not sure it'd do well at 50MP crop.

anyways the point was it allows a gentle path to full frame. Many crop camera users (me being one) have a mix of EF-S and EF. I generally stopped buying crop lenses after that 17-55 2.8IS (which really should be refreshed if they continue crop, it's the workhorse for crop). I have EF lenses, but can't afford (yet) the cost of getting a 24-70 2.8 + a FF body. Anyways, really seems to me the game has changed a bit.. and it will be interesting to watch.
 
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snappy604

CR Pro
Jan 25, 2017
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The jackpot for me personally would be the two combined. High fps crop mode (20mp) and 50mp full frame. With a 1.3 crop in between! I love my 7dii but many times I had to switch to the 6dii (now replaced by the R) early morning or late afternoon when the light was bad. It is not an action camera! But I could still get some shots, better than none with the 7dii. The 6dii I used for astro, mackro, landscapes etc. The flippy screen I could not live without, hence the 6dii and not 5div (wich i tried for a while). So if I could have those two bodies in one...... win win win for me. Did not use the R much but already love it.


I... would love to see something like that. Being able to shoot crop for speed, or FF for detail.
 
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Danglin52

Wildlife Shooter
Aug 8, 2018
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Hopefully Canon brings a really excellent "flagship M" ... EOS M5 II or "M7" soon. It should be a "mirrorfree 7D III" and a veritable Fuji XT-3/Nikon D-500 II killer ... at around 1499. EOS "R6" entry level could then come at 1699. :)

That would sort things out nicely and end all speculation regarding future:
* EOS M = APS-C (from entry level to hi-end)
* EOS R = FF sensor (with crop mode)

I have the m5 and don't believe it is the correct form factor for a sports / wildlife 7dII replacement. I have used the m5 with a 70-200 f4 L IS II and it is surprisingly well balanced, but that falls apart when you throw on the 100-400 or something larger. I think even with the R form factor, you would want a battery grip to give you a better balance with longer lenses. That said, I would love a beefed up m5 II with fast, accurate AF and more robust capabilities.
 
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Bob Howland

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Mar 25, 2012
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So why are you shooting on a 7D instead of buying a 5DSR and shooting it in crop mode? BTW having a high MP sensor and tossing most of the pixels will not make it a low light beast. It will be a worst of all worlds camera. High cost, poor low light, low image quality.

"FPS" means Frames Per Second. Notice the differences between the first configuration and the latter two configurations. Also, 2X2 binning refers to treating a 2 by 2 matrix of pixels as a single much larger presumably more light sensitive pixel, which reduces the number of pixels by a factor of 4, although the entire sensor area is used. Whether Canon (or Nikon or Panasonic) can actually do it is another question entirely.
 
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Mar 2, 2012
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"FPS" means Frames Per Second. Notice the differences between the first configuration and the latter two configurations. Also, 2X2 binning refers to treating a 2 by 2 matrix of pixels as a single much larger presumably more light sensitive pixel, which reduces the number of pixels by a factor of 4, although the entire sensor area is used. Whether Canon (or Nikon or Panasonic) can actually do it is another question entirely.
I don’t see why canon or Panasonic couldn’t figure it out. Binning is a neat trick. The CMOSIS sensors which support it and have published datasheets advertise a 1:1 increase in well capacity (i.e. the binned readout of a 4 pixel block is 4 times that of an individual pixel).
 
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no problem. All it takes is purchase of an EOS R body. All EF lenses will keep working. All EF-S/crop glass and most 3rd party crop lenses - will also keep working ... in crop mode. One can keep the EOS DSLR as well. All those lenses work on all EOS DSLRs and R cameras. I also believe that using an EOS R with FF glass [EF or RF] and cropping in post/software to "APS-C size" will yield at least as good if not better IQ than using a 7D2.

And nobody is forced to "move down" to EOS M, as a matter of fact even the inexpensive, "entry level" M50 would be a clear upgrade for all EOS Rebel + EF-S owners. In terms of IQ, sensor, AF [eg Eye Tracking, AF points across entire frame, etc.], viewfinder, handling, size, weight, noise. And EF-M lenses are often superior to EF-S glass. Notably EF-M 11-22, 22/2, 28/3.5, 32/1.4, 18-55. :)

For most use cases I'd also rate an M50 "better" than an EOS 80D. I also hope, that upcoming Canon "EOS M5 II" or whatever the "top M model" may be called, will be fully on par with Fuji XT3. Then it will also blow 7D II out of the water. :)

It might be technical superior top 80D although I a, not convinced it is all around the case. i both loved and hated the size of the M50 when i tried it in the store. Love to have one as a walk around camera or as BACKUP.. but i feel it would be tedious when i put a large lens on it for birding.. For that I would like a cheap apc EOS R sized body without having to shell out 1dx 2 amounts of money because you keep on insisting the FF chip has to download to get the 20-24 MP i would like for birding.
You may not like an apc body, fine don't buy one, but don't be as hard headed to state other people would not need one and should just buy the extreme expensive high resolution version only to use it in apc mode. With your logic the 7D series was also not needed, a FF body size what a waste to put an apc sensor in it.
 
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Jul 30, 2010
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I would disagree with every thing you said. The M is a tourist camera. It is not designed for the abuse of heavy users and if you look at the patents Canon keeps producing for future M lenses it will never be a platform for the people that have been shooting 7Ds and 80Ds. If I look at the M lens line up I see [email protected]+(5.6+ FF eq) , [email protected]+( 7.2+ FF eq), 1@F2( 3.2 FF eq) and [email protected](2.24FF eq) Sure it is an upgrade if you are shooting an SL2 with the kit lens but that's about it. I doubt many photographers shooting either a 7D or a 80D are shooting on the (runs to dig in the back of the closet) 18-35 F3.5 kit lens. The only reason I still have my kit lenses is in case a friend (or their kid) is starting out in photography I would just give them away. Now they aren't even fit for that purpose.
The beauty of the M is that you can use ANY lens with the proper adapter. So the lens is not limited to EF-M. I have used various EF lenses on the M, the focusing speed did not suffer with the adapter. Therefore your lens limitation of EF-M can be overcome easily. I have also used a few Leica lenses ( MF) on the M50. I am having a ball with it. I moved from 40D to M and I have never looked back. In fact, I travel with EF-M, EF and Leica lenses
 
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