Lower end EOS R body to omit the touch bar

[Mikehit]

when will you realize eos R is not an Entry level camera ? my god, i don't get when people says that for real

It is entry level for FF. If your definition if to 'entry level' to photography, then surely that accolade belongs with smartphones and compacts.

 

[JonSnow]

Market share means nothing to me in terms of choosing a camera system. But when a member troll is claiming that Canon is ‘not in the game’ and is ‘not competitive’, the fact that more people who actually buy cameras are choosing Canon than those manufacturers that are ‘ahead’ is highly relevant. What photographers should care about, and what I believe they do care about, is what camera(s) they purchase, and the features offered by those cameras...and more photographers choose Canon than other manufacturers. So while Canon may not be competitive in your mind or in the personal realities of some CR trolls, out here in the real world, where people buy cameras to meet their needs, Canon dominates.

But you keep on blah blah blahing about your choice to ignore reality. YKNJS.

Some peope talk about specs some peope like you talk about marketshare.
The product with the best feature or usability is not always the bestselling.... you know there is a thing like MARKETING. Most customers are clueless. Like millions of rebel users who shoot in full auto mode 100% of the time.

Also canon has a lot of users who stick to canon since the 70s.... they will always buy canon no matter if it is an inferior product or not.

So much about your "REALITY".

 

[Mikehit]

Some peope talk about specs some peope like you talk about marketshare.
The product with the best feature or usability is not always the bestselling.... you know there is a thing like MARKETING. Most customers are clueless. Like millions of rebel users who shoot in full auto mode 100% of the time.

Also canon has a lot of users who stick to canon since the 70s.... they will always buy canon no matter if it is an inferior product or not.

So much about your "REALITY".

The aim of any company is to maximise sales. If a company can maximise sales by concentrating on things like ergonomics instead of high-spec functionality (which is the nub of the Canon vs Sony argument) then please explain why they should not do this.
If a company can confidently predict that they will sell more by adapting feature A instead of feature B, even though feature B looks better on internet forums please explain why they should not adapt feature A.

Canon have seen ergonomics as key to their success so it Sony had chosen to fight them 5 years ago on the ergonomics battleground they would have gone out of business. So Sony decided to use their experience and capability on the sensor front to produce functionally superior products but ones that lagged ergonomically (they have all but admitted this in interviews earlier this year). Sony have now created a solid foundation in their market and are now improving ergonomics to close the gap with Canon. It was a sound business decision and is bearing fruit. Just as Canon's business decision was also sound.

Two interesting points arise from this:
Firstly it shows how technological status does not seem to play as important a part in buying decisions as Canon-bashers seem to think.
Secondly, although I commented that Sony have created a solid foundation in the market place their market share is no greater now than it was before the A7 series were released - something that Canon's critics seem to be ignorant of and which does not play to their internal story of the status of the camera market.

 

[djack41]

Yes, more companies are offering FF mirrorless now...but APS-C ILCs still massively outsell FF models, and given the cost differential that’s not going to change anytime soon. Even so, Canon still sells more full frame cameras then Sony.


Yeah, they’re only ahead in sales, where they are crushing the competition. Sorry that you’re having such trouble grasping basic facts and reality.

Troll on, bub!

Nero, Since Canon is so dominant, it has no excuses....right. I own a 1DX2 that badly underperforms my comrades D5 in in critical areas for wildlife photography such as AF, ISO and dynamic range. They used to be Canon shooters. The venerable 5D4 doesn't compare with the D850 in AF, FR, ISO, or MP. My EOS R is a good first-try camera but lags badly to Sony's offerings like the A7R3, A73 or A9. Pick your spec.....where does the EOS R prevail.......well I do like the flip screen. Inferior products lose market share. Stop being Fanboy blind.

 

[JonSnow]

The aim of any company is to maximise sales.

most likely. i know a few who want to make the best product possible. even when that means selling less.
but these are mostly smaller companys in private hands. not big companys like canon.

If a company can maximise sales by concentrating on things like ergonomics instead of high-spec functionality (which is the nub of the Canon vs Sony argument) then please explain why they should not do this.

why should i do that? explain something that has nothing to do with what i am saying?

we talk about canon cameras lacking in features not ergonomics.

ergonomics don´t do a thing for me when i want/need (for example) uncropped 4K at 60FPS or great AF tracking at more than 3 fps. you do understand that?
in case the next sony a7s can do uncropped 4K at 60FPS and someone needs that feature.... ergonomics (may) come second.

you complain about sonys ergonomics (that IS a valid complain for you) but you won´t acknowledge canons shortcomings.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Inferior products lose market share. Stop being Fanboy blind.

Yes, inferior products generally result in a loss of market share. You claim Canon products are inferior. Over the past decade, Canon has gained market share. Stop ignoring reality, and at least make some attempt to grasp the fact that the features you apparently value are not the features that the majority of buyers value (or at least, not value highly enough to affect their buying decisions).

 

[Mikehit]

why should i do that? explain something that has nothing to do with what i am saying?

we talk about canon cameras lacking in features not ergonomics.

ergonomics don´t do a thing for me when i want/need (for example) uncropped 4K at 60FPS. you do understand that?

And that is the point that you (and too many others) miss. Canon have developed features you don't care about. All companies have different priorities and limited resources so they allocate limited resources in a way that makes best sense to their customer base. Sometimes that decision is affected by the technology they have available and the fact is that Canon's sensor is unable to deliver the data throughput that would enable them to match Sony's technological advantages. So my guess is they have developed their superior ergonomics to give them breathing space while they improve their game with the sensor.

You don't like what Canon are doing - fine. But you keep talking about this as if Canon made a business decision to deliberately produce an inferior camera although while having the ability to do it if they wanted to. If Canon were suffering in sales I am sure they would have allocated their resources differently.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Some peope talk about specs some peope like you talk about marketshare.
The product with the best feature or usability is not always the bestselling.... you know there is a thing like MARKETING. Most customers are clueless. Like millions of rebel users who shoot in full auto mode 100% of the time.

Also canon has a lot of users who stick to canon since the 70s.... they will always buy canon no matter if it is an inferior product or not.

So much about your "REALITY".

Ahhh yes, I understand what you’re really saying: “More people buy Canon, but they’re stupid sheep and I’m smart so I know better.” Sell your sophistic crap somewhere else, most of us are intelligent enough to recognize your bullshit from the pervasive stench.

 

[neuroanatomist]

ergonomics don´t do a thing for me when i want/need (for example) uncropped 4K at 60FPS or great AF tracking at more than 3 fps. you do understand that?
in case the next sony a7s can do uncropped 4K at 60FPS and someone needs that feature.... ergonomics (may) come second.

Sure, we understand that. Not everyone has the same priorities as you, and in fact, the sales data suggest that most people have priorities that are different from yours. Do you understand that? And if you do, what makes you think Canon should choose to address your priorities over those of the majority. Oh wait, you answered that...they should choose your priorities because you’re so much smarter than all their stupid ovine customers.

 

[JonSnow]

apparentlyvalue are not be the features that the majority of buyers value (or at least, not value highly enough to affect their buying decisions).

yeah lol....you are sure playing the soccer moms advocate here.
too bad most people in this forum are not happy using a rebel in full auto mode.

and rebels are the bread and butter of canon.
and from my obseration they are not customers who have much knowledge about a cameras featureset.

honestly nobody here who is into photography (or photography gear) cares about your constant brabbling about marketshare.
when you have no arguments.... you bring the discussion to marketshare.

APS-C.... i would be stupid to buy into canon. fuji is so much better today.

FF... canon is happy to have a large user base with existing glass and excellent marketing (unlike nikon).

canon has great marketing, a userbase build over decades and a brand name.... like coke.

technologically.... canon is behind. or at least they are not wiling to put the technology into their cameras.

 

[JonSnow]

Ahhh yes, I understand what you’re really saying: “More people buy Canon, but they’re stupid sheep and I’m smart so I know better.” Sell your sophistic crap somewhere else, most of us are intelligent enough to recognize your bullshit from the pervasive stench.

the only thing you can do is making personal attacks when you disagree. i pitty you. it must be miserable to be around you.
why the MODS allow someone like you to turn every thread into a shitfest of personal attacks is beyond me.

 

[neuroanatomist]

the only thing you can do is making personal attacks when you disagree. i pitty you. it must be miserable to be around you.
why the MODS allow someone like you to turn every thread into a shitfest of personal attacks is beyond me.

I see. Go ahead and call millions of people sheep and imply they intentionally buy an inferior product out of loyalty, and when called on it, accuse the one who won’t swallow your tripe of a ‘personal attack’ and respond with a personal attack of your own. Yeah, that makes just oodles of sense.

 

[JonSnow]

Sometimes that decision is affected by the technology they have available and the fact is that Canon's sensor is unable to deliver the data throughput that would enable them to match Sony's technological advantages.

well i made that point in my first post here in this forum. so i know that pretty well.

You don't like what Canon are doing - fine. But you keep talking about this as if Canon made a business decision to deliberately produce an inferior camera although while having the ability to do it if they wanted to. If Canon were suffering in sales I am sure they would have allocated their resources differently.

who cares if it is deliberately or not?
others show that they can do what canon can not/will not.

 

[JonSnow]

I see. Go ahead and call millions of people sheep and imply they intentionally buy an inferior product out

i guess THAT is only ok when you insult sony users as clueless fanboys.

people who are so clueless they buy a product just because of it´s superior features and better sensors, but ignore ergonomics.....

accuse the one who won’t swallow your tripe of a ‘personal attack’ and respond with a personal attack of your own. Yeah, that makes just oodles of sense

you attack people. i attack opinions.

when you have no arguments you bring your "but marketshare" nonsense. every time like a broken record.
i argue from a customer viewpoint, you argue from canon business viewpoint (why? i sure don´t get it).

that canon makes the most money with the least amount of effort is not in my interest as customer.

 

[neuroanatomist]

i guess THAT is only ok when you insult sony users as clueless fanboys.

When have I done that? Feel free to link some quotes from my posts. Or, if you can’t find any, feel free to retract your accusation and be mature enough to admit your mistake.

people who are so clueless they buy a product just because of it´s superior features and better sensors, but ignore ergonomics.....

Sorry, you seem to be conflating my response with those of others. Try to keep these things straight, it might help lend you a least a modicum of credibility.

you attack people. i attack opinions.

I see. So this is how you attack opinions:

Most customers are clueless.

Seems you have trouble with metacognition, you might want to get that checked.

 

[JonSnow]

When have I done that? Feel free to link some quotes from my posts. Or, if you can’t find any, feel free to retract your accusation and be mature enough to admit your mistake.

when i have the cold i will search through your "23,472" messages.

sorry but i have a life.. but we all know that insulting others when they have different opinions is your modus operandi.


actually let´s have a few quotes about how you interact with other canonrumor members:

Most people have little to no understanding of how corporations operate.

but they sure are camera experts..... so much about calling people sheeps.

Perhaps merely unfortunate victims of educational systems that do not emphasize STEM

Maybe if I send you a dollar via PayPal, you can use it to go buy a clue.

So any time you'd like to pull your head out of the ground and join reality, feel free. "

Or maybe they just don't have your high-end ego. Keep on Canowhining, by all means don't let little things like reality influence your...

As usual, facts and reality reveal your statements as the typical ridiculous drivel you spout here.

You can use your fingers if that helps you count,

Meanwhile, back here in the real world or most of us live, Canon FF ILCs are outselling Sony FF ILCs. I welcome you to join us in the real world, but of course you are free to continue living in your fantasy land.

t. It sounds like you're so emotionally attached to your tools that you sleep with your Sony camera. You should be warned that the a7 series has notoriously poor moisture sealing around its base, so your nocturnal emissions on your...

Why are you here, anyway?

o you know anything about reading comprehension...or even basic punctuation

Spoken like a true troll.

Spoken in true troll form by both of you, with all the business acumen of the mud under your bridge. Maybe one too many mirrorslaps to the head.

Please go back to your troll hole now,

Why don't you crawl back into your troll cave where you belong.

Yes, people will call you a troll — it's a moniker you might deserve

he's a troll or merely gullible and clueless.

sad to watch the evolutionary descent from human to troll.

I'd suggest you not waste it giving credence to any of the idiotic tripe he spouts.

Nice post. Completely divorced from reality, but nice nonetheless.

e've already established that you're the expert. Expert troll, that is. :

Are you perhaps a Nikon troll-for-hire?

I can state an opinion, too: you're a pathetic little troll

I doubt you'd know reality if it bit you on the butt.

In fact, you either have very poor metacognition

When you next visit your therapist, be sure to have your metacognition assessed..

i could go on for hours....

 

[neuroanatomist]

when i have the cold i will search through your "23,472" messages.
sorry but i have a life.. but we all know that insulting others when they have different opinions is your modus operandi.

While I have no problem responding to insults with insults, you’d be hard pressed to find instances where I was the one to instigate the exchange of insults. But I’m sure you won’t look, because you ‘have a life’...or you are too lazy, which amounts to the same thing.

And once again you make a claim that you cannot support with evidence. Typical. Pathetic, but typical.

 

[Ivan Muller]

Also canon has a lot of users who stick to canon since the 70s.... they will always buy canon no matter if it is an inferior product or not.

I guess I fall into this category...I occasionally read with interest some other camera brand reviews...but the thing is that I've never felt that what I am getting out of my Canon is so bad that I just have to change, on the contrary I am generally impressed and have been more than satisfied with the performance of my bodies, lenses and accessories since I went digital with the 20D back in 2004.

Also, I look at the total offering not just the camera body, but also the lenses, accessories and backup etc. For instance in my neck of the woods, Southern Africa, Sony pulled out completely, through lack of sales I imagine, a couple of years ago. They are starting to trickle back but I would not consider buying anything from them at the moment nor in the foreseeable future...Nikon is strong here but their professional lenses are a good deal more expensive than Canon's. And personally I don't like their styling. Fuji is making big inroads here especially among the youth and I like what they have to offer... But it makes no sense to have two different camera systems and they just dont have the selection that Canon has. Also the M6 is considerably cheaper than the equivalent Fuji offerings without even having to go and buy lenses that fit.

Canon makes superb TS lenses and I have the 24TSmk2, which is quite unique imo. So also for the small and cheap 40mm pancake and 50mm stm, and that super compact yet versatile and sharp 70-300L.....and the new 35mm f1.8 RF is probably my next lens... I have a couple of Canon flashes that I hammer in my commercial photography and they just carry on and on. I have not had a body or lens fail on me for 10 years, and before that only once did a lens pack up. I like the way Canons Eos bodies look and the way the menu works. And the reliability, and the familiarity, and the vast options that I can choose from.

On average I keep my body for 4 years and my 6D, which I just enjoyed tremendously has about 100k on the clock and it got replaced by the R which by the way I also enjoy tremendously...so why should I change? Because some, usually anonymous troll, on the internet tells me so, or because DP review gives it 79% and Sony/Nikon gets 89%? And lets say Canons next R is the bees knees and gets 99% rating on DPREview, should I sell everything and go back to Canon only to change a year later when the new Pentax gets a 110% review.....as I said before many of my commercial photographer friends are using old equipment and most of them dont care about the DR, 4K, Fps, Sensor stabilization etc etc.

They just want cameras that work reliably....and my experience tells me that Canon does...

But I am eternally grateful to Sony for pushing the boundaries.....Competition is good for everyone, and if they are fully or even partly responsible for the Eos R happening then all I can say is keep on pushing Sony/Fuji/Leica/Pentax/Olympus!

 

[neuroanatomist]

actually in most posts you are the one who acts passive agressive when someone critizises canon. don´t think people won´t notice that.
and i really wonder why the mods ignore that you poison every discussion..

So presenting facts that refute someone’s claims is ‘passive aggresssive’ and constitutes ‘poisoning a discussion’? Well, you have no evidence to add to this discussion, but that doesn’t seem to stop you from spewing codswallop. Either way, there’s really no benefit in continuing the discussion.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I guess I fall into this category...I occasionally read with interest some other camera brand reviews...but the thing is that I've never felt that what I am getting out of my Canon is so bad that I just have to change, on the contrary I am generally impressed and have been more than satisfied with the performance of my bodies, lenses and accessories since I went digital with the 20D back in 2004.

Also, I look at the total offering not just the camera body, but also the lenses, accessories and backup etc. For instance in my neck of the woods, Southern Africa, Sony pulled out completely, through lack of sales I imagine, a couple of years ago. They are starting to trickle back but I would not consider buying anything from them at the moment nor in the foreseeable future...Nikon is strong here but their professional lenses are a good deal more expensive than Canon's. And personally I don't like their styling. Fuji is making big inroads here especially among the youth and I like what they have to offer... But it makes no sense to have two different camera systems and they just dont have the selection that Canon has. Also the M6 is considerably cheaper than the equivalent Fuji offerings without even having to go and buy lenses that fit.

Canon makes superb TS lenses and I have the 24TSmk2, which is quite unique imo. So also for the small and cheap 40mm pancake and 50mm stm, and that super compact yet versatile and sharp 70-300L.....and the new 35mm f1.8 RF is probably my next lens... I have a couple of Canon flashes that I hammer in my commercial photography and they just carry on and on. I have not had a body or lens fail on me for 10 years, and before that only once did a lens pack up. I like the way Canons Eos bodies look and the way the menu works. And the reliability, and the familiarity, and the vast options that I can choose from.

On average I keep my body for 4 years and my 6D, which I just enjoyed tremendously has about 100k on the clock and it got replaced by the R which by the way I also enjoy tremendously...so why should I change? Because some, usually anonymous troll, on the internet tells me so, or because DP review gives it 79% and Sony/Nikon gets 89%? And lets say Canons next R is the bees knees and gets 99% rating on DPREview, should I sell everything and go back to Canon only to change a year later when the new Pentax gets a 110% review.....as I said before many of my commercial photographer friends are using old equipment and most of them dont care about the DR, 4K, Fps, Sensor stabilization etc etc.

They just want cameras that work reliably....and my experience tells me that Canon does...

But I am eternally grateful to Sony for pushing the boundaries.....Competition is good for everyone, and if they are fully or even partly responsible for the Eos R happening then all I can say is keep on pushing Sony/Fuji/Leica/Pentax/Olympus!

My history is shorter than yours (Minolta/Pentax film SLRs in the 70s/80s, long hiatus, bought first DSLR in 2009), but in general I agree. If there was a meaningful benefit to switching (or adding another system), I’d have already done that. I have tried other systems, and found nothing that would drive me to adopt them. Sure, some features are better on other systems, and some are worse. Life is always trade offs.