1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?

syder

EOS RP
Apr 29, 2012
200
59
Basically the main thing Canon has going for its DSLR (and C series) video is Dual Pixel autofocus. It absolutely smashes anything I've seen on Sony/Panasonic/Blackmagic cameras. If you have a dedicated focus puller that doesn't mean much, but most people doing DSLR video dont have much in the way of assistance/crew.

The WiFi connect App is also pretty awesome. Remotely being able to control the camera settings and pull focus from a smartphone or tablet is great for vloggers or if the camera is on a crane/rigged in a way that makes it hard to manually access.

Being able to work in ways that were not possible with the 5D3/C100 means a lot more to me than any minor improvement/loss of marginal detail.

The GH5 is a beast for indie fiction work. The A7s2 is absolutely amazing in lowlight. But if you want class-leading AF (and the Face tracking DPAF is good enough to just be allowed to do its thing for documentary interviews and to camera educational material) then Canon still have an advantage.
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,788
876
119
Jack Douglas said:
Thanks Scott!

Guess I've steered this a little off topic but maybe not enough to bother anyone??

Do you sense we're on the edge of these stabilized gimbals coming down in price?

I watched the video and I think that guy made pretty valid points. Certainly the AF characteristic is important to me.

Is an external monitor relevant or does the gimbal give you flexibility on viewing further away?

Jack
I don't see them dropping in price, certainly not in the >6lb category, maybe new features and form factors but the value is there if you need the tool. The Ronin S isn't out yet and is supposed to be comparable to the Crane 2, it won't be cheaper but will have more system add ons.

As for external monitors, I haven't gone there yet as I am traveling but do have a CamRanger already that is video output capable to most phones and laptops so I might experiment when I have more time.
 

3dit0r

EOS M50
Dec 4, 2017
46
6
Jack Douglas said:
Probably a question that's been asked and answered before but I've been to distracted. To convert 4K video from my 1DX2 to HD and be able to incorporate panning and zooming, what is the best software for a fussy beginner. I have a special trip I'm planning for late summer and I really would love to do some video and not just the usual photos.

Like so many new ventures in life, it's hard to get initial traction and I don't really want to either be bogged down in software that is near impossible to learn without numerous courses or alternately not satisfactory for reasons I would soon become aware of. I must get started on this! :(

Is there someone that does this all the time that has an overall perspective on it?

Jack
Several options:

Avid Media Composer First - slightly pared down version of full media composer, but it's still the industry standard and this version is free. Personally I still find this the fastest, most intuitive and robust NLE. Still the best trim mode out there.

Lightworks - another industry standard NLE. The free version is limited, but if you're dabbling, how much do you need for no outlay?

Davinci Resolve. It's free for most functions and fully featured, and of course industry standard colour correction. I don't think the editor part is as intuitive as the above, but if you want it all in one package...

The others aren't free. Also, Apple screwed themselves (and a large number of editors) when they switched to Final Cut Pro X which put a lot of people off. Never got on with that or Première anyway, but that's a personal thing, I know there are people who like them.
 

jayphotoworks

EOS 80D
Aug 11, 2016
188
57
BillB said:
Talys said:
This may be of interest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFvpJSmB_Ps

The fellow compares a Canon 1DX Mark II and an Sony A7R III. His findings are interesting; it's worth a watch.

Spoilers/TLDR:
- He really really really wanted to switch to the Sony A7R III because of size (he hates 1DXII size)
- 1DXII is better for 1080p video (also, it supports 4k 60fps vs 30fps 4k on Sony, but he doesn't care)
- Slow motion on 1DXII is significantly smoother
- AF on 1DXII is better. Also, when it's OOF and acquiring focus, the result on a 1DXII is more pleasing
- AF on Sony with adapted lens is not good enough. But he says native lens is also inferior to 1DXII
- He likes Canon colors better
- The 1DXII is going to remain his video rig; he's going to probably return the A7RIII
- If it were just photography, he'd probably go A7RIII, because of size
Interesting. Others have said that 1DXII and 5DII 1080 was soft.
There are a number of specifics that Sony does very well:

- Dual record 4K to both cards simultaneously
- LOG/HLG on the Sony
- FF (no crop) vs S35 crop switchable on the Sony
- Real EVF
- Tilting Rear LCD
- Focus Assists, Configurable Zebra, Markers and Aspect Grids
- 4K 8bit 4:2:2 out via HDMI (vs 1080 on the 5D4/1DX2)
- Configurable custom buttons specific to video (in video mode) and alternate configuration for (stills mode)
- Built in proxy recording
- Sony shotgun/stereo and dual-xlr audio kit all connect via the multi-interface shoe. No separate 3.5mm cable, no need for AA batteries or external power

I think overall usability and flexibility for video acquisition in this segment is better than Canon's current offerings. AF on the Sony is adequate at least in decent light, but obviously nowhere near Canon's DPAF performance. Sony's codec is also much weaker for grading, but for the work that I would employ my Sony, I don't need the extra headroom resulting in additional hours in the editing suite and I also don't want to burn through media every 15-20mins either.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,058
329
Vancouver, BC
syder said:
Basically the main thing Canon has going for its DSLR (and C series) video is Dual Pixel autofocus. It absolutely smashes anything I've seen on Sony/Panasonic/Blackmagic cameras. If you have a dedicated focus puller that doesn't mean much, but most people doing DSLR video dont have much in the way of assistance/crew.
Yes.

I have a friend's A7R3 at the moment, and will shoot it when it gets sunny to give it a fair shake and post my findings. I'm quite excited to give it a whirl, though that will have to wait til hopefully the weather improves (before I have to return it :)). But the very first thing that I noticed is that hybrid PDAF Autofocus using a GMaster 100-400 is far, far short of 100-400L2 with Dual Pixel, especially as there is less available light.

The GMaster 70-200/2.8 is significantly better; but as the lights dim a little -- think flash photography use cases -- AF suffers immensely, compared to 70-200 L2.8 IS.

Often, even when the autofocus is acceptably fast, there is a visible back-and-forth hunting. When in continuous autofocus, it's possible that the AF system is not sure even when it's a stationary target (like a book on a bookshelf) the AF thinks an awful lot and you can see the camera deciding on AF points.

Contrast that with Canon AI Servo, where it's a solid lock and done. I think it's less important with photography, because you don't see the hunting in the final result. But it is distracting, because AF hunting has not been a real issue seemingly forever. In video, I could see this being super annoying (though I don't care about video, myself). The face tracking and subject tracking seems very good; perhaps this makes up for it a little bit, but still, when you need to go from defocused to in-focus, I do not find the transition pleasing as I do with practically every current Canon camera. The EFS18-135 USM on an 80D sure puts AF on the A7R3 to shame.

Playing around with the camera a bit (but not really taking any photos), there are some features that are really great, like an ace crop mode implementation that 5DSR users would love. But I don't think there's any way around it -- After fidgeting for 2 hours and watching configuration videos, I came to the initial conclusion that the AF seems inferior, both to TTL PDAF and live view DPAF, and that is a very important feature to me.
 

jayphotoworks

EOS 80D
Aug 11, 2016
188
57
privatebydesign said:
Jack Douglas said:
Thanks Scott!

Guess I've steered this a little off topic but maybe not enough to bother anyone??

Do you sense we're on the edge of these stabilized gimbals coming down in price?

I watched the video and I think that guy made pretty valid points. Certainly the AF characteristic is important to me.

Is an external monitor relevant or does the gimbal give you flexibility on viewing further away?

Jack
I don't see them dropping in price, certainly not in the >6lb category, maybe new features and form factors but the value is there if you need the tool. The Ronin S isn't out yet and is supposed to be comparable to the Crane 2, it won't be cheaper but will have more system add ons.

As for external monitors, I haven't gone there yet as I am traveling but do have a CamRanger already that is video output capable to most phones and laptops so I might experiment when I have more time.
I recently acquired a Zhiyun Crane 2. Because the form factor is so small, external monitoring seems like overkill, so I basically try to look past the roll motor. I know the Ronin-S has the roll motor at an angle which should solve this problem.

For wireless HDMI monitoring, the best low cost wireless option is probably the Nyrius Pro at $300. The receiver and transmitter can be powered via USB power packs, so you get creative with duct tape and cable ties. While there are other options like wifi, latency can tend to ruin a lot of your shots. If you are pulling focus or trying to do a camera movement, by the time the screen updates, you might have already missed the shot. The Nyrius does have relatively short range and the feed can sometimes get interrupted, but the next best option is over $3000 and targets a different market entirely.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,095
1,032
Alberta, Canada
Thanks guys!!

It would seem that initially free software is a very good option, trusting the judgment of others and given that processing comes after recording I guess I'd better start shooting a lot of practice video to simply become more familiar with the challenges.

I'm pretty much sold on the:

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B075T3TQSD/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3P9EAC3KD93H7&psc=1

Which you can see is a little more pricey than from the US but not enough for me to go to B&H.

But I'm wondering how easy it is to change focus points on the viewfinder when shooting, like if you're interested in a subject, as opposed to say landscape??

When shooting 4K is there any way an external monitor can work??

What use is 4K 60 - only slow motion?? Can it be used in every way like 4K 30?? Probably pretty dumb questions but like I said I have never done video (I seem to recall there is no audio but ...).

Jack
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,058
329
Vancouver, BC
Jack Douglas said:
What use is 4K 60 - only slow motion?? Can it be used in every way like 4K 30?? Probably pretty dumb questions but like I said I have never done video (I seem to recall there is no audio but ...).
I'm no expert at this, but presenting video in 30 vs 60 fps have a very different look to them.

Movies are presented in 24fps (the historical reasons are partly economic), but the aesthetic is very different from HFR (high frame rate), like 60fps -- that has much more of a "live video" look (as in, you are right there). Ironically, because audiences have gotten used to 24fps, some people feel that HFR looks "fake".

The most notable HFR video was The Hobbit, which screened at select theatres at 48 fps. The audience feedback, I recall, was mixed. Some people just didn't like it. I never saw it in HFR, so I can't say for myself.

A lot of people in the cinematography claim that 24fps is aesthetically more pleasing... and I guess the proof is in that nearly all 2D/3D movies are presented that way. But that just devolves into the same argument as DSLR versus Mirrorless :)
 

ethanz

1DX II
Apr 12, 2016
1,028
271
ethanzentz.com
jayphotoworks said:
privatebydesign said:
I don't see them dropping in price, certainly not in the >6lb category, maybe new features and form factors but the value is there if you need the tool. The Ronin S isn't out yet and is supposed to be comparable to the Crane 2, it won't be cheaper but will have more system add ons.

As for external monitors, I haven't gone there yet as I am traveling but do have a CamRanger already that is video output capable to most phones and laptops so I might experiment when I have more time.
I recently acquired a Zhiyun Crane 2. Because the form factor is so small, external monitoring seems like overkill, so I basically try to look past the roll motor. I know the Ronin-S has the roll motor at an angle which should solve this problem.
Scott and Jay,
So you two say that the Crane 2 will work well with the 1dx2 and maybe a 24-70 2.8? The gimbal will give full range of motion with that much weight on it? I was looking at the Ronin M but if this Crane 2 will do it, it seems to be easier to hold and move around. Using the screen to get focus though could be a challenge, right?
 

ethanz

1DX II
Apr 12, 2016
1,028
271
ethanzentz.com
Jack Douglas said:
Thanks guys!!

It would seem that initially free software is a very good option, trusting the judgment of others and given that processing comes after recording I guess I'd better start shooting a lot of practice video to simply become more familiar with the challenges.

What use is 4K 60 - only slow motion?? Can it be used in every way like 4K 30?? Probably pretty dumb questions but like I said I have never done video (I seem to recall there is no audio but ...).

Jack
Yes, typically you use the higher frame rate so you can slow the video down later in post production. So you can still use 60p in a 30p or 24p movie project, it will just get rid of the extra frames I think. Audio works just fine on 4K 60p with the 1dx2 (not on 1080p120).

As we've talked about before, I use Premiere for video editing. It is a full feature software. I shoot in 4k typically and then create proxies (basically a downsized version of the file that the software uses for editing, but then reverts back to the source video for final output encoding). Even with my nice computer Premiere has problems playing 4K, even on the 1/4 playback setting. In my mind, Premiere is not very efficient. From what I've heard, FCP has been finely tuned to work 4K well on Macs.

Jack, remember that 1dx2 4K is a 1.4 crop, so your 11-24 will crop some, which is fine. My 24-70 gives me plenty of area in 4K.
 

jayphotoworks

EOS 80D
Aug 11, 2016
188
57
ethanz said:
jayphotoworks said:
privatebydesign said:
I don't see them dropping in price, certainly not in the >6lb category, maybe new features and form factors but the value is there if you need the tool. The Ronin S isn't out yet and is supposed to be comparable to the Crane 2, it won't be cheaper but will have more system add ons.

As for external monitors, I haven't gone there yet as I am traveling but do have a CamRanger already that is video output capable to most phones and laptops so I might experiment when I have more time.
I recently acquired a Zhiyun Crane 2. Because the form factor is so small, external monitoring seems like overkill, so I basically try to look past the roll motor. I know the Ronin-S has the roll motor at an angle which should solve this problem.
Scott and Jay,
So you two say that the Crane 2 will work well with the 1dx2 and maybe a 24-70 2.8? The gimbal will give full range of motion with that much weight on it? I was looking at the Ronin M but if this Crane 2 will do it, it seems to be easier to hold and move around. Using the screen to get focus though could be a challenge, right?
I've never tried a gripped body on the Crane 2. The closest thing from Canon I recently shot on this gimbal was a 5DS and a 17-40L lens. The 5DS doesn't even have DPAF, but the Crane 2 can control all camera controls (LV toggle, Aperture, Shutter, and even Focus) right from the OLED display and focus wheel, so it was a pleasant operating experience and with the included metal tripod legs, I could put it on the floor when fatigue set in. The best part is that going from taking the gimbal out of the case to getting the camera on the gimbal to shooting was 1-2 minutes at most when pre-balanced. The part that takes the most time is learning how to initially balance the gimbal and when you need to do lens changes, but that comes with experience and doing it enough.

The Ronin-M takes more time to setup and has a number of other considerations. You will need external monitoring and some form of wireless lens control. You also need a few other accessories to be able to set it down when fatigue sets in without having someone carry the stand whenever you move. When fully equipped, it will weigh considerably more and personally even after a lot of kettle bell training, I still can't operate a setup like this unassisted for more than 20-30 mins at a time so I commonly use an easy-rig or steadicam vest. I think the DJI Ronin dual handle series are better suited for larger productions or cinema cameras.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,095
1,032
Alberta, Canada
The feedback is very much appreciated and small concepts are beginning to fall into place in a bigger picture. I have the Zhiyun Crane 2 in my shopping cart (Amazon.ca) and am just waiting for confirmation on where the shipping is coming from and the time factor.

From first seeing the stabilized gimbals about 2 years ago I was blown away but the prices seemed really high. $1000 CAD I can handle. With my 6D about 4 years ago I did a video of my son playing piano with a symphony orchestra in the Edmonton Windspear Theater and I had the 70-200 and was in the balcony alone. It was very frustrating getting the manual focus bang on, partly because without reading glasses I couldn't clearly judge up close. Anyway, the experience was positive and negative but I had trouble panning/zooming shifting focus from one area to another and was angry at myself afterwards. AF is a godsend.

So 4K 60, other than larger file sizes is not going to be regretted when it comes to future editing - right?

Is it relatively easy to do some trimming to remove material after the fact to reduce the files for storage and future careful editing? Or is it better to keep the clips as small as possible?

Jack
 

ethanz

1DX II
Apr 12, 2016
1,028
271
ethanzentz.com
Jack Douglas said:
The feedback is very much appreciated and small concepts are beginning to fall into place in a bigger picture. I have the Zhiyun Crane 2 in my shopping cart (Amazon.ca) and am just waiting for confirmation on where the shipping is coming from and the time factor.

From first seeing the stabilized gimbals about 2 years ago I was blown away but the prices seemed really high. $1000 CAD I can handle. With my 6D about 4 years ago I did a video of my son playing piano with a symphony orchestra in the Edmonton Windspear Theater and I had the 70-200 and was in the balcony alone. It was very frustrating getting the manual focus bang on, partly because without reading glasses I couldn't clearly judge up close. Anyway, the experience was positive and negative but I had trouble panning/zooming shifting focus from one area to another and was angry at myself afterwards. AF is a godsend.

So 4K 60, other than larger file sizes is not going to be regretted when it comes to future editing - right?

Is it relatively easy to do some trimming to remove material after the fact to reduce the files for storage and future careful editing? Or is it better to keep the clips as small as possible?

Jack
Zooming while filming handheld is still a challenge for me, not sure how a gimbal would change that. With my 200-400 I finally got a good enough tripod and head that can smoothly move the camera and allow me to zoom without adding too much shake (thanks to someone who donated it to my church). With a monopod, you could probably zoom ok with a 24-70 or even 70-200. I just tried my new monopod out last night with some video, haven't checked out the results yet.

I don't believe 60p will negatively affect you later on, besides larger file sizes.

Sometimes I will export my source video files as 1080 or a lesser bitrate 4k file to store it for later use. (As has been leveled against Canon repeatedly is that the video files are so big and beautiful.) You can also delete the proxy video files too when you are done. With the videos I make, I will have many short video clips to compile a bigger movie. When archiving/storing I will often delete the video clips that I did not use to help save on space.
 

ethanz

1DX II
Apr 12, 2016
1,028
271
ethanzentz.com
jayphotoworks said:
ethanz said:
jayphotoworks said:
privatebydesign said:
I don't see them dropping in price, certainly not in the >6lb category, maybe new features and form factors but the value is there if you need the tool. The Ronin S isn't out yet and is supposed to be comparable to the Crane 2, it won't be cheaper but will have more system add ons.

As for external monitors, I haven't gone there yet as I am traveling but do have a CamRanger already that is video output capable to most phones and laptops so I might experiment when I have more time.
I recently acquired a Zhiyun Crane 2. Because the form factor is so small, external monitoring seems like overkill, so I basically try to look past the roll motor. I know the Ronin-S has the roll motor at an angle which should solve this problem.
Scott and Jay,
So you two say that the Crane 2 will work well with the 1dx2 and maybe a 24-70 2.8? The gimbal will give full range of motion with that much weight on it? I was looking at the Ronin M but if this Crane 2 will do it, it seems to be easier to hold and move around. Using the screen to get focus though could be a challenge, right?
I've never tried a gripped body on the Crane 2. The closest thing from Canon I recently shot on this gimbal was a 5DS and a 17-40L lens. The 5DS doesn't even have DPAF, but the Crane 2 can control all camera controls (LV toggle, Aperture, Shutter, and even Focus) right from the OLED display and focus wheel, so it was a pleasant operating experience and with the included metal tripod legs, I could put it on the floor when fatigue set in. The best part is that going from taking the gimbal out of the case to getting the camera on the gimbal to shooting was 1-2 minutes at most when pre-balanced. The part that takes the most time is learning how to initially balance the gimbal and when you need to do lens changes, but that comes with experience and doing it enough.

The Ronin-M takes more time to setup and has a number of other considerations. You will need external monitoring and some form of wireless lens control. You also need a few other accessories to be able to set it down when fatigue sets in without having someone carry the stand whenever you move. When fully equipped, it will weigh considerably more and personally even after a lot of kettle bell training, I still can't operate a setup like this unassisted for more than 20-30 mins at a time so I commonly use an easy-rig or steadicam vest. I think the DJI Ronin dual handle series are better suited for larger productions or cinema cameras.
Thanks Jay, that is very helpful. For only $750 I might try out the Crane 2. What is the difference between it and the other versions Zhiyun makes? Its nice that it has small legs on the bottom for resting.
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,788
876
119
The Zhiyun Crane 2 will take a 1DX MkII and 24-70 f2.8. You do need to either undo some screws to slide the gravity plate past its natural stop or get an extended gravity plate made especially for the gripped bodies.

Here is a link to it at B&H but you can get them on eBay etc https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1389917-REG/zhiyun_tech_gmb_c522_gravity_adjustment_plate_for.html

The other models they make are all much smaller capacity so will not handle or fit the 1DX MkII.
 

jayphotoworks

EOS 80D
Aug 11, 2016
188
57
Jack Douglas said:
The feedback is very much appreciated and small concepts are beginning to fall into place in a bigger picture. I have the Zhiyun Crane 2 in my shopping cart (Amazon.ca) and am just waiting for confirmation on where the shipping is coming from and the time factor.

From first seeing the stabilized gimbals about 2 years ago I was blown away but the prices seemed really high. $1000 CAD I can handle. With my 6D about 4 years ago I did a video of my son playing piano with a symphony orchestra in the Edmonton Windspear Theater and I had the 70-200 and was in the balcony alone. It was very frustrating getting the manual focus bang on, partly because without reading glasses I couldn't clearly judge up close. Anyway, the experience was positive and negative but I had trouble panning/zooming shifting focus from one area to another and was angry at myself afterwards. AF is a godsend.

So 4K 60, other than larger file sizes is not going to be regretted when it comes to future editing - right?

Is it relatively easy to do some trimming to remove material after the fact to reduce the files for storage and future careful editing? Or is it better to keep the clips as small as possible?

Jack
The motion cadence of 60p dropped into a 24p timeline will not appear the same as footage shot at 24p. It may appear "strobey" or unnatural depending on the type of movement you are capturing. You should ideally shoot 60p for shots that you intend to utilize that frame rate and 24p for everything else (assuming you are trying to aim for a traditional 24p cinematic look).

Also, the shutter angle or shutter speed will have to be considered as well. Again, if you are trying to aim for a traditional 180 degree look that is common in cinema, shooting at 24p for a 180 degree shutter angle yields a shutter of 1/48s, but 60p would require 1/120s to preserve the 180 shutter angle.

None of these are hard rules, but will help you when trying to put together a consistent looking final product.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,095
1,032
Alberta, Canada
Thanks Jay, good to know. ethanz, appreciate your perspective also.

Scott, do you think the 70-200 2.8 II is too heavy/big - have you physically tried a few different lenses?

If one adds the dual handles to the gimbal, then control is no longer at your fingertips, right? What about rigging up some kind of flag-pole type support??

Jack
 

ethanz

1DX II
Apr 12, 2016
1,028
271
ethanzentz.com
Jack Douglas said:
Thanks Jay, good to know. ethanz, appreciate your perspective also.

Scott, do you think the 70-200 2.8 II is too heavy/big - have you physically tried a few different lenses?

If one adds the dual handles to the gimbal, then control is no longer at your fingertips, right? What about rigging up some kind of flag-pole type support??

Jack
Jay probably knows more than I do.

Our 1dx and 70-200 is just about 7lbs, so it would be getting close to its limit.

I know some gimbal makers have remotes that you can add to the gimbal, probably for that very reason.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,095
1,032
Alberta, Canada
ethanz, every comment is helpful to me given my inexperience. :)

I've mentioned in another thread but to put my recent video interest in context here is where I'm determined to be in August and September. It would be a travesty to have the 1DX2 and not do some video.

https://www.tripadvisor.ca/ShowUserReviews-g182211-d1648680-r523504816-Bella_Coola_Valley-Bella_Coola_Bella_Coola_Valley_British_Columbia.html#photos;aggregationId=101&albumid=101&filter=7&ff=285719855

Jack