1st time printing (for sale): Matting? Paper? Print size? Border? All noob questions......

cayenne

EOS 7D Mark II
Mar 28, 2012
1,720
39
#1
Hello all,

I've got a friend with a table at a show coming up in a few weeks.
I recently got one of the Canon Pixma 100's and a free box of 13x9 paper for about $53.

I have a few prints I want to print off...matte and possibly frame and have NO idea where to start.

I have never printed off an image of mine before, much less tried to matt or frame anything in my life.


I've been watching some YouTube about this....seems there are pre-cut mattes which seems like that would be the way to go. I really don't know what size images are the popular ones that most folks sell at art shows. I'm guessing 12"-14" inches on the long side?

Does that sound close to a normal N x Y dimensions that are usually used?

Could someone give me advice, for something of an image in that size range....what would size of image be? How large a border to leave (i.e. image dimensions on what paper dimensions?_.....and what size matte would that fit into?

I got some paper along with the printer....the canon 13x19 semi gloss I think it was.....


But I think that may be a bit too large.

So, can someone give me maybe some suggestions of paper types/brands to try....and sizes....and how to print the image with dimensions that leave borders that would go along with some form of pre-cut mattes.


Like I said....COMPLETE noob, but any help, suggestions or links are greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance,

Cayenne
 
Apr 12, 2016
798
83
ethanzentz.com
#2
Hey Cayenne, glad you bought the printer! Don't expect to make money selling these :) I've been running an art gallery for a year now and can tell you that up front lol.

I believe the printer came with lustre paper, which has probably become my favorite paper. Most buyers you will meet at this show will not care or even know the difference of paper. They only care if it looks good and how much it costs. The size of the most popular prints are 8x10 and 11x14 (they will become bigger once you mat them). So the paper you have is fine. Use it. You'll want to adjust your pictures when you print, to make sure how you want it to look is really how it prints out. You may have to print several times to adjust it. After installing your printer, you should have several print profiles for Canon paper. So use either the Lustre 1/2 or 3 (I don't know what the difference is). In your photoshop settings, you can change the "Rendering Intent" between four options. The preview on the left may help you see what the difference is, but print it out and see.

I would suggest buying pre-cut matt. I've bought these ones before on BH:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...al_Methods_48_010_Pre_Cut_Exhibition_Mat.html
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...al_Methods_48_014_Pre_Cut_Exhibition_Mat.html
You'll notice the opening is actually half an inch smaller than the print size, which is fine. That gives you some wiggle room to line the print up nicely. So print your images at 8x10 and 11x14. If you are doing higher quantities of prints, you may want to check out the mats from clear bags below. They are a little cheaper and run in larger quantities. You can ask me for more details if you need help. With the 11x14 (scaled up to 16x20 with the mat) you won't need to cut off any excess paper. For the 8x10 you will have to.

I use photo corners to secure the print to the mat. Some people use a special taping procedure that I find unnecessary (but I also find complaining about Canon as some on this forum do to be unnecessary). https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...Photo_Albums_PCR1_Photo_Mounting_Corners.html
The Archival Methods pre cut mat come already tape hinged. If you buy the Clearbags pre cut mat, you will need to buy and tape the hinge of each mat. (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/125574-REG/Lineco_L533_1055_Self_Adhesive_Linen_Tape.html) When placing the print on the mat, open the mat up, place the print where you think it will be, close the mat, then adjust and position it like you want it. I usually put my phone or some other soft, but heavy object on top of the print to keep it in place. Then open the mat back up. DON"T MOVE THE PRINT. Take up a corner of the print and apply the photo corner. Do the rest of the corners. And then you are done.

You should also have the final matted prints in a clear envelope. I use these: https://www.clearbags.com/11-1-4-x-14-1-8-flap-crystal-clear-286x362.html but you could also just get them on BH too https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...Methods_86_1114_Crystal_Clear_Bag_11_1_4.html

Everything I have linked and the paper/ink you received can be classified as "Archival" I believe. Just means it will probably last longer than the people will even keep the picture.

As far as final pricing, I sell my 8x10 (11x14 mat) for $20 and my 11x14 (16x20) for $35, I think.

As I said, ask me on here or in private for any more information or help.

You can message me a link to some of your pictures as payment for my time and knowledge ;) or a new 85 / 35mm 1.4
 
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LDS

EOS 80D
Sep 14, 2012
1,377
35
#3
So use either the Lustre 1/2 or 3 (I don't know what the difference is)
It's the "print quality" setting in the print driver. The lower the number, the higher the "quality" (and more ink is used). AFAIK it controls the actual dpi used by the printer (not the ppi), the higher the quality more dots should be used, but the difference between "standard" (usually "2") and "High" (usually "1") is often negligible, and the printing process could be slower at higher quality levels.

Depending on the paper, not all settings may be available. Use the profile that matches your "print quality" settings.

See https://ugp01.c-ij.com/ij/webmanual...00S series/1.0/EN/PPG/dg-c_print_quality.html
 

LDS

EOS 80D
Sep 14, 2012
1,377
35
#4
So, can someone give me maybe some suggestions of paper types/brands to try....and sizes....and how to print the image with dimensions that leave borders that would go along with some form of pre-cut mattes.
Paper is really a matter of taste, yours or your customers' - although some kind of images print better on a given type than others - and thereby you should choose the type which best match your images and your taste.

First of all, you'll find "photo" and "fine art" papers. The former are usually made with wood cellulose, sometimes resin coated (RC) substrates. The latter use more expensive - but longer lasting - fibres materials (usually cotton, but other fibres can be used).

As a general rule of thumb, glossy papers yields better result with images with high-detail, high-contrast and/or bright colors. They often contain OBAs that can fade with time. Fingerprints can be easily visible, and are easier to scratch. Often, they are regarded as "amateurish" prints, as most amateur prints in the past where printed that way, and most people usually like bright, saturated colors. But there are fine art high gloss papers (like the Hahnemühle Baryta FB).

Matte ones usually have less contrast and a smaller gamut, while a texture can add to the "artistic" feeling (textures can reduce resolution - sometimes it's good, sometimes it is not. Usually not good for portraits) They don't glare, and are usually more resistant when handled (fingerprints or scratches). For these reasons they are often used for exhibitions and albums. Some images can be difficult to print on some matte papers (i.e. I personally find Canon Matte really good for "painting-like" or "old B/W" images only, especially because of it yellowish color and limited contrast).

Lustre/satin/pearl/semi-gloss usually have many of the advantages of glossy papers, and less of the disadvantages (i.e. less glare, less fingerprints friendly, more resistant to scratches), and can be available with different textures, more or less visible.

A lot depend on the actual surface, though, there are many, with different characteristics - i.e. a Baryta coatings can deliver high contrast and wide gamut on fine art papers too, but is usually expensive.

Sizes, and dimension ratios, as well follow type, taste and demand - i.e. a landscape may look better with different dimensions than a portrait.

What could be useful is a good paper trimmer (I prefer a rotary one) - especially for larger paper sizes when using an hand cutter becomes less comfortable and precise - so you can get the exact size you need, even if the original paper size is different, unluckily many paper sizes follow the usual printer/office sizes (i.e. Letter, A4, etc.) instead of more photographic size, so you may need to trim them.

Of course, if you use pre-made frames you'll have to work within the frame sizes available.

The border size is determined by the framing, mat size, and design/aesthetic, i.e. you could leave an additional border inside the mat, or not. The usual good graphic design rules apply.

Applications like Lightroom makes the printing process very easy, and also allow to design re-usable templates. Photoshop may require some more work, although it can give you more control. Take care of the printer unprintable spaces - they may not be symmetric-, when positioning an image that will be framed.

Brands, there are many to choose from - price, beyond the type could be a differentiator, and availability. Among the higher-end brands you can find for example Hahnemühle, Canson, Moab, Innova, Awagami. There are many others, often less "international", i.e. Red River in US. And of course the printer makers papers.

Anyway, papers branded by Canon, Epson, etc. are often made by some of those companies, there are not many paper mills worldwide, although they may not be alike the ones sold under the original brands.

Usually they offer sample packs, so you can try different types and decide which suits best your needs. Anyway, ethanz is right that when you sell most buyers (but most demanding ones) won't care much about the paper, although the right paper could make an image more appealing.

You'll have to experiment a bit, to find what best suits you.
 
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cayenne

EOS 7D Mark II
Mar 28, 2012
1,720
39
#5
OH wow...thank you for all the great info!!
I"m reading through all of this now, and hope to experiment some with printing this weekend when I get things set up.

I'm starting with trying to calibrate my monitor...I'm working from a macbook pro (late 2011)...but it is hooked to external keyboard, and a Dell U2711 monitor.
I'm using the i1Display Pro from xrite, it sure is looking a bit blue tinted to me, but will see how it work with printing.

I'm not planning to make much money off my home printing, but thought for the price, why not? Also, will give me my first jump in the water on learning how to go from developing my images to actually printing them...as that I do plan to try to market things in the future, set up a SmugMug site which will be hooked to a pro printing shop, etc.

But figuring this will get me started learning color management, profiles, etc......and to have something to have fun with at some local shows here coming up.

Anyway, a GREAT deal of good info above....reading all of it now.

Any other input is greatly appreciated.....

Thank you!!

cayenne
 

LDS

EOS 80D
Sep 14, 2012
1,377
35
#6
it sure is looking a bit blue tinted to me
One of the first things to do is to set the monitor color temperature - if you didn't already - many non-photo monitors comes with a default at around 9000°K, and they are usually far too blue. Build a profile after having set the temperature.

To print you'll need 6500° (D65) or 5000° (D50). The latter is the standard for prepress work, but in many photo situations 6500 could work better (https://www.xrite.com/service-support/monitor_calibration__which_white_point_is_correct).

Anyway, learn the basics using good but not crazily expensive papers (the Canon ones are OK), then when you gained experience, you can move to more sophistciated - and usually expensive - ones, although price is not always an indicator of quality.
 
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cayenne

EOS 7D Mark II
Mar 28, 2012
1,720
39
#7
One of the first things to do is to set the monitor color temperature - if you didn't already - many non-photo monitors comes with a default at around 9000°K, and they are usually far too blue. Build a profile after having set the temperature.

To print you'll need 6500° (D65) or 5000° (D50). The latter is the standard for prepress work, but in many photo situations 6500 could work better (https://www.xrite.com/service-support/monitor_calibration__which_white_point_is_correct).

Anyway, learn the basics using good but not crazily expensive papers (the Canon ones are OK), then when you gained experience, you can move to more sophistciated - and usually expensive - ones, although price is not always an indicator of quality.

Thanks for the feedback.
Yeah, I believe I had the monitor set decently....and for the i1Profile software with the i1Display Pro...I did it at D65.....and it is running the profile now.
Just seems MUCH dimmer and cooler (blue) than before....
The Dell U2711...came supposedly pretty well color corrected from factory in its day. Of course I know over the years things drift.....but wow, this is strange.

After doing the profile, I had the i1Display thing do a check and everything came out ok.

I did the controls manual while it was tuning things...I got the grey done right with RBG controls...and the software says it is all good with checkmarks, etc.

Maybe I'm just used to looking at things overly "warm"?

It was wanting luminance of like 120....I could only get the monitor up to like 99.

OH well, I'll see how this does....a large part of this I seem to understand from reading, is try...print, compare, adjust, etc.....

With great help and advice like I get from this forum....I'll figure it out!!
:)

Thanks again!!

Kelly
 

LDS

EOS 80D
Sep 14, 2012
1,377
35
#8
From what I see from the online manual, it looks that the Dell U2711 has a very good IPS panel, but unluckily its OSD is not designed for photographic use, it looks more video oriented. The brightness is set as a percentage, 0 (min) 100 (max). So you can't set a value in cd. Can the iDisplay Pro meter the monitor brightness? Otherwise, set a brightness which is close to your environment one.

Color settings as well doesn't let to select a target color temperature, I see modes like "Game", "Warm", "Cool", "sRGB", "AdobeRGB", etc. - what setting are you using? I'd select AdobeRGB, and then profile it. It should use a white point of D65, and it will give you the 96% coverage of AdobeRGB the monitor is capable of, without trying to manipulate the input. Other settings (but sRGB) probably alter input to perform some "enhancements", and could use a smaller gamut.

I see it also have advanced settings, but fine tuning them could be not easy without a good experience and proper instruments. Maybe perform a factory reset and start anew. X-Rite also suggests to disable DCC/CI, it's a feature that allows a PC to control monitor setting like brightness, contrast, etc. If they change, the profile won't match anymore.
 

cayenne

EOS 7D Mark II
Mar 28, 2012
1,720
39
#9
From what I see from the online manual, it looks that the Dell U2711 has a very good IPS panel, but unluckily its OSD is not designed for photographic use, it looks more video oriented. The brightness is set as a percentage, 0 (min) 100 (max). So you can't set a value in cd. Can the iDisplay Pro meter the monitor brightness? Otherwise, set a brightness which is close to your environment one.

Color settings as well doesn't let to select a target color temperature, I see modes like "Game", "Warm", "Cool", "sRGB", "AdobeRGB", etc. - what setting are you using? I'd select AdobeRGB, and then profile it. It should use a white point of D65, and it will give you the 96% coverage of AdobeRGB the monitor is capable of, without trying to manipulate the input. Other settings (but sRGB) probably alter input to perform some "enhancements", and could use a smaller gamut.

I see it also have advanced settings, but fine tuning them could be not easy without a good experience and proper instruments. Maybe perform a factory reset and start anew. X-Rite also suggests to disable DCC/CI, it's a feature that allows a PC to control monitor setting like brightness, contrast, etc. If they change, the profile won't match anymore.

Yeah, the monitor has brightness as %...right now it is at 100%...the i1Display calibrator read is at about 98cd I believe....so that's as high as I can go.

ON the color...there is one other choice, Custom. With that I could adjust the RBG channels each. While the calibration was going, I adjusted the RBG values individually till it came to a 50% gray. So, I think I have that one done.

I saw that part about disabling the DCC/CI (not sure what that is actually)....but that one said for a PC. I looked on the Mac instructions and it made no mention of that setting one way or another, so I left it on. This monitor is hooked to a macbook pro (late 2011), which is set up for use more as a workstation than a laptop, it sits on a rack, hooked to hubs...to this monitor, wacom, external thunderbolt to SATA drives (some SSD's)....etc.


I'd started another thread on the forum more towards the monitor aspect of this, from that and your comments, I'm thinking I'm in the ballpark now.
The true test will come with some test prints which I hope to do this weekend when I get the printer set up on the new table for it coming in, hopefully today.


Thank you very much for all the info!!!

Cayenne
 
Apr 12, 2016
798
83
ethanzentz.com
#10
I'd started another thread on the forum more towards the monitor aspect of this, from that and your comments, I'm thinking I'm in the ballpark now.
The true test will come with some test prints which I hope to do this weekend when I get the printer set up on the new table for it coming in, hopefully today.
The printer is very heavy, so you need a nice sturdy table.

I may be in the minority here but I don't think a perfectly calibrated monitor is essential. You are going to be making several test prints either way, so just adjust from what you print.
 

LDS

EOS 80D
Sep 14, 2012
1,377
35
#11
You are going to be making several test prints either way, so just adjust from what you print.
The whole idea behind a color workflow is to keep the need of test prints to a minimum, to save paper and ink. It is true a lot depends on the quality of devices, profiles, skill and experience.
 

cayenne

EOS 7D Mark II
Mar 28, 2012
1,720
39
#12
LOL...knowing me...I'm gonna need to do so many test prints...I'll soon need to be setting up a new thread: How to refill inks yourself!!!

I've seen some articles and a couple of videos on that, but guess I"ll cross that bridge when I get to it....

:)
 

cayenne

EOS 7D Mark II
Mar 28, 2012
1,720
39
#14
How do you know what size matte to buy?
Say you are doing 4x6, or 5x7 or 8x10 or 13x19, etc....what size matte do you buy for each size? Is there a formula for matte size based on image size?

Thanks in advance!!

cayenne
 
Apr 12, 2016
798
83
ethanzentz.com
#15
"I would suggest buying pre-cut matt. I've bought these ones before on BH:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...al_Methods_48_010_Pre_Cut_Exhibition_Mat.html
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...al_Methods_48_014_Pre_Cut_Exhibition_Mat.html
You'll notice the opening is actually half an inch smaller than the print size, which is fine. That gives you some wiggle room to line the print up nicely. So print your images at 8x10 and 11x14. If you are doing higher quantities of prints, you may want to check out the mats from clear bags below. They are a little cheaper and run in larger quantities. You can ask me for more details if you need help. With the 11x14 (scaled up to 16x20 with the mat) you won't need to cut off any excess paper. For the 8x10 you will have to."

Cayenne, are you looking to frame them or just sell matted prints?

For framing: determine what frame size you want. If you want 16x20, you'll want a mat with an outside measurement of 16x20. The inside will typically be 11x14. Like with this one: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...al_Methods_48_014_Pre_Cut_Exhibition_Mat.html
It says 16x20 Board for 11x14 Print. The width of the mat is really a subjective preference. Usually the bigger the picture, the larger the mat will be. So with that 16x20 I just mentioned, it has roughly 2 inches of mat around the print. For something larger, like a picture that is 30x40, you may want a 5 inch mat around the print, so the print would be something like 20x30.

Does that help?
 

LDS

EOS 80D
Sep 14, 2012
1,377
35
#16
.I'll soon need to be setting up a new thread: How to refill inks yourself!!!
Be aware that if the inks aren't within the same specs enough you would need to calibrate the ink/paper combination... :geek:

It would become another rabbit hole....
 

cayenne

EOS 7D Mark II
Mar 28, 2012
1,720
39
#17
"I would suggest buying pre-cut matt. I've bought these ones before on BH:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...al_Methods_48_010_Pre_Cut_Exhibition_Mat.html
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...al_Methods_48_014_Pre_Cut_Exhibition_Mat.html
You'll notice the opening is actually half an inch smaller than the print size, which is fine. That gives you some wiggle room to line the print up nicely. So print your images at 8x10 and 11x14. If you are doing higher quantities of prints, you may want to check out the mats from clear bags below. They are a little cheaper and run in larger quantities. You can ask me for more details if you need help. With the 11x14 (scaled up to 16x20 with the mat) you won't need to cut off any excess paper. For the 8x10 you will have to."

Cayenne, are you looking to frame them or just sell matted prints?

For framing: determine what frame size you want. If you want 16x20, you'll want a mat with an outside measurement of 16x20. The inside will typically be 11x14. Like with this one: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...al_Methods_48_014_Pre_Cut_Exhibition_Mat.html
It says 16x20 Board for 11x14 Print. The width of the mat is really a subjective preference. Usually the bigger the picture, the larger the mat will be. So with that 16x20 I just mentioned, it has roughly 2 inches of mat around the print. For something larger, like a picture that is 30x40, you may want a 5 inch mat around the print, so the print would be something like 20x30.

Does that help?

Wow!! Absolutely that helps!!! Ok, lemme read and digest this.

I'm not sure here at first, I may just see if any interest in matted prints, but I may try to do 1-2 in a frame of some sort mostly to draw interest to the table.

Again, thank you and everyone else so far for all the great info!!!

cayenne
 
Sep 14, 2012
1,377
35
#20
Yeah, just buy Canon inks...
If you just need a reliable solution without much hassle, why not? Canon sells a lot of overpriced stuff... not only inks :)

If you can find another reliable supplier delivering constant ink quality, why not? Precision Colors, which Cayenne linked, is transparent enough to tell you its red ink for the Pixma 10 can't match Canon one - others may not be.

With different inks you may need to create specific ICC profiles for your preferred papers, for best result - but you prefer to make a lot of test prints, I know.

While the worst scenario is when inks specs are not constant - you may have to profile each batch.

Do you put cheap CF cards in your cameras?