4K Video Capture Coming to the EOS 5D Mark IV? [CR1]

Canon unfortunately underestimated the degree of innovation that companies like Sony are capable of. So they started this "cinema" line, put in a few bells and whistles and the price tag to go along with it. I don't mind that they charge a premium for the C100,300,500 because they are strict video cameras. But when they take a 1dx body, and unlock it to do 4k and then charge 10k for it. It's a little bit ridiculous. The 1DC doesn't belong in the cinema line, its ergonomically not a strict video camera, and frankly will be squashed by the competition in the next year or so in specs and price. I'd like to see them start a new line of video centric dslrs. Let them do internal 4k, 4:2:2 for $4K. That would sell like hot cakes. Obviously they would have to cripple them in some way as to still make their cinema line attractive for the more serious cinematographer. Ergonomically the cinema series would already be worth the upgrade.
 
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nchaparro said:
Canon unfortunately underestimated the degree of innovation that companies like Sony are capable of. So they started this "cinema" line, put in a few bells and whistles and the price tag to go along with it. I don't mind that they charge a premium for the C100,300,500 because they are strict video cameras. But when they take a 1dx body, and unlock it to do 4k and then charge 10k for it. It's a little bit ridiculous. The 1DC doesn't belong in the cinema line, its ergonomically not a strict video camera, and frankly will be squashed by the competition in the next year or so in specs and price. I'd like to see them start a new line of video centric dslrs. Let them do internal 4k, 4:2:2 for $4K. That would sell like hot cakes. Obviously they would have to cripple them in some way as to still make their cinema line attractive for the more serious cinematographer. Ergonomically the cinema series would already be worth the upgrade.

Canon are currently market leaders in high end stills and low end professional "cinematic" video. Their current cameras already sell extremely well. The 5D Mark III, C300, and C100 outsell all direct competitors (based on what little reliable information is available regarding marketshare). Lenses sell great because bodies sell well. It's as healthy an ecosystem as any company can have in this difficult industry.

Also, what you consider bells and whistles most owners and operators consider to be awesome ergonomics, a great image, multiple professional gammas, and a ton of features (EVF, scopes, good audio inputs, etc.) that you'd pay a lot to add on to a dSLR. How much have you used the CX00 cameras to be such an expert on their feature set, which is extensive and really powerful?

Why would Canon undercut itself in markets in which it is already the leader and already selling cameras with high prices and presumably high margins? Sony and Panasonic are undercutting Canon and that is why you see the better price/performance there... If you want what they offer, buy it. Canon won't offer that line of video dSLRs you want until Sony and Panasonic start eating up their market share so, maybe in 5-10 years, not now. Panasonic already offers it. Why not buy it from Panasonic? At the worst it will encourage Canon to make the camera you really want.

If there's any market they need to address it's the high end. The C500 is not a serious Alexa competitor. The C500 Mark II needs to be. This is a high margin, mature market and it is completely controlled by one camera.
 
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InterMurph said:
brianftpc said:
I think putting 4k in a sub 4,000 camera would cause canon to become its own competition with their cinema line of cameras.
They don't want to cannibalize the sales of their expensive cinema cameras.

That's a common strategy, and the companies that have used that strategy all have one thing in common: their sales were cannibalized by their competition, instead of by themselves.

Panasonic and Sony are going after Canon video shooters. If Canon won't give us 4K, or even sharp 1080p, then we will get it elsewhere. I am about to buy a GH4 for my video work, even though I won't be able to use my L lenses with it.


"If you don’t cannibalize yourself, someone else will"

—Steve Jobs.
 
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Policar said:
nchaparro said:
Canon unfortunately underestimated the degree of innovation that companies like Sony are capable of. So they started this "cinema" line, put in a few bells and whistles and the price tag to go along with it. I don't mind that they charge a premium for the C100,300,500 because they are strict video cameras. But when they take a 1dx body, and unlock it to do 4k and then charge 10k for it. It's a little bit ridiculous. The 1DC doesn't belong in the cinema line, its ergonomically not a strict video camera, and frankly will be squashed by the competition in the next year or so in specs and price. I'd like to see them start a new line of video centric dslrs. Let them do internal 4k, 4:2:2 for $4K. That would sell like hot cakes. Obviously they would have to cripple them in some way as to still make their cinema line attractive for the more serious cinematographer. Ergonomically the cinema series would already be worth the upgrade.

Canon are currently market leaders in high end stills and low end professional "cinematic" video. Their current cameras already sell extremely well. The 5D Mark III, C300, and C100 outsell all direct competitors (based on what little reliable information is available regarding marketshare). Lenses sell great because bodies sell well. It's as healthy an ecosystem as any company can have in this difficult industry.

Also, what you consider bells and whistles most owners and operators consider to be awesome ergonomics, a great image, multiple professional gammas, and a ton of features (EVF, scopes, good audio inputs, etc.) that you'd pay a lot to add on to a dSLR. How much have you used the CX00 cameras to be such an expert on their feature set, which is extensive and really powerful?

Why would Canon undercut itself in markets in which it is already the leader and already selling cameras with high prices and presumably high margins? Sony and Panasonic are undercutting Canon and that is why you see the better price/performance there... If you want what they offer, buy it. Canon won't offer that line of video dSLRs you want until Sony and Panasonic start eating up their market share so, maybe in 5-10 years, not now. Panasonic already offers it. Why not buy it from Panasonic? At the worst it will encourage Canon to make the camera you really want.

If there's any market they need to address it's the high end. The C500 is not a serious Alexa competitor. The C500 Mark II needs to be. This is a high margin, mature market and it is completely controlled by one camera.

Indeed they are market leaders as of now, but as I pointed out the 1DC doesn't belong where it is and at the price tag, when you have an a7s and GH4 at a significantly lower cost producing great imagery. It won't be long before one of these companies does get it right (much sooner than 5-10 years) with internal 4k , better codec. Regardless of where Canon is now, and how well their gear sells everyone else is catching up quickly. Sony arguably has better sensor technology than Canon as of now. I do envision and predict that Canon will release an excellent video capable dslr in the near future, one that competes with the current offerings. Canon has even stated itself that they need to improve the video on their dslr offerings.
 
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nchaparro said:
Policar said:
nchaparro said:
Canon unfortunately underestimated the degree of innovation that companies like Sony are capable of. So they started this "cinema" line, put in a few bells and whistles and the price tag to go along with it. I don't mind that they charge a premium for the C100,300,500 because they are strict video cameras. But when they take a 1dx body, and unlock it to do 4k and then charge 10k for it. It's a little bit ridiculous. The 1DC doesn't belong in the cinema line, its ergonomically not a strict video camera, and frankly will be squashed by the competition in the next year or so in specs and price. I'd like to see them start a new line of video centric dslrs. Let them do internal 4k, 4:2:2 for $4K. That would sell like hot cakes. Obviously they would have to cripple them in some way as to still make their cinema line attractive for the more serious cinematographer. Ergonomically the cinema series would already be worth the upgrade.

Canon are currently market leaders in high end stills and low end professional "cinematic" video. Their current cameras already sell extremely well. The 5D Mark III, C300, and C100 outsell all direct competitors (based on what little reliable information is available regarding marketshare). Lenses sell great because bodies sell well. It's as healthy an ecosystem as any company can have in this difficult industry.

Also, what you consider bells and whistles most owners and operators consider to be awesome ergonomics, a great image, multiple professional gammas, and a ton of features (EVF, scopes, good audio inputs, etc.) that you'd pay a lot to add on to a dSLR. How much have you used the CX00 cameras to be such an expert on their feature set, which is extensive and really powerful?

Why would Canon undercut itself in markets in which it is already the leader and already selling cameras with high prices and presumably high margins? Sony and Panasonic are undercutting Canon and that is why you see the better price/performance there... If you want what they offer, buy it. Canon won't offer that line of video dSLRs you want until Sony and Panasonic start eating up their market share so, maybe in 5-10 years, not now. Panasonic already offers it. Why not buy it from Panasonic? At the worst it will encourage Canon to make the camera you really want.

If there's any market they need to address it's the high end. The C500 is not a serious Alexa competitor. The C500 Mark II needs to be. This is a high margin, mature market and it is completely controlled by one camera.

Indeed they are market leaders as of now, but as I pointed out the 1DC doesn't belong where it is and at the price tag, when you have an a7s and GH4 at a significantly lower cost producing great imagery. It won't be long before one of these companies does get it right (much sooner than 5-10 years) with internal 4k , better codec. Regardless of where Canon is now, and how well their gear sells everyone else is catching up quickly. Sony arguably has better sensor technology than Canon as of now. I do envision and predict that Canon will release an excellent video capable dslr in the near future, one that competes with the current offerings. Canon has even stated itself that they need to improve the video on their dslr offerings.

The 1dc delivers built in 4k with acceptable skew and a standard lens mount with native cinema lenses. The gh4 has one of these things... A7s has none. And it's also a top of the line $7k stills camera. The only camera I'd take over my mark 3 is a medium format back... Only cameras I'd take over my c100 would be a c300 or Alexa/Amira. Canon offers the best gear for the price and it sells accordingly.

Fwiw Canon has been on top longer than Apple ever has. Windows and Android beat Apple's OS market share even now.

If you disagree, buy elsewhere. Not everyone can afford the best, fewer still are willing to pay for it.
 
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Mar 25, 2011
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If you are a pro cinema photographer, customer support is a huge factor. Sony forces customers to wait weeks or months for consumer camera support, while Canon has set up shop in Hollywood for almost instant service. They have not only not abandoned the segment, they are moving in in a big way.

Look for new dedicated cinema products, the consumer and prosumer stuff is fine, but they are indeed looking to bring in a lot more $$ by producing cameras designed primarily for video.
 
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There is much more going on here and its market wide. High quality images are rolling out accross all price points now. There was a time when the diffirence between a $40,000 movie camera body and a $2,000 camera body (in image quality alone) was pretty wide. We are now about 90% to a place where the diffference will be much more subtle. In that market, a market where images will all look very close in quality from camera to camera, how will Canon or anyone else distinguish themselves from the pac?
* Physical/industrial design?
* Feature sets/buttons and knobs?
* Audio?
* Etc?

BUT the bottom line is how will the images look at delivery?

I predict once they are graded and aside from the bullet points above it wont matter much what camera you buy.
 
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ecka said:
4K down-sampled to 1080p makes massive difference compared to Canon's ordinary 1080p and makes it look like an up-sampled 720p. There is a simple reason for that, dividing resolution by 4 almost eliminates the softness from false color produced by Bayer filter color-guessing technology (some call it - spatial resolution). So, you don't need a blu-ray player, or even a 4K display to enjoy UHD goodness :). It's not a gimic.
would shooting in 4K not hurt the low light image quality. i thought absorbing light on the same size sensor with more pixels would require better lighting conditions to match the picture quality of 1080P at the same ISO setting on the same sensor. I have read reviews on sony's new ENG 3CCD cameras that are entry level 4K and people talk about how terrible the image quality is if you dont have perfect lighting when shooting in 4K because of the scenario I described above. I dont want to raise my ISO to compensate for 4K. I want better low light 1080P so I can lower my ISO and have better image quality at a resolution people will actually be viewing it in.
 
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InterMurph said:
brianftpc said:
I think putting 4k in a sub 4,000 camera would cause canon to become its own competition with their cinema line of cameras.
They don't want to cannibalize the sales of their expensive cinema cameras.

That's a common strategy, and the companies that have used that strategy all have one thing in common: their sales were cannibalized by their competition, instead of by themselves.

Panasonic and Sony are going after Canon video shooters. If Canon won't give us 4K, or even sharp 1080p, then we will get it elsewhere. I am about to buy a GH4 for my video work, even though I won't be able to use my L lenses with it.
I think they will put 4k in the 5D mkIV and 1Dx mkII. I just think it will be handicapped in some way to keep me from caring about it being there and still force people to buy their cinema line. I think it will be there for the sake of it being in the specs because of what Sony and Panasonic have done
 
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Feb 8, 2013
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Policar said:
Also, what you consider bells and whistles most owners and operators consider to be awesome ergonomics, a great image, multiple professional gammas, and a ton of features (EVF, scopes, good audio inputs, etc.) that you'd pay a lot to add on to a dSLR.

Along those lines, I don't think it would be difficult for Canon to differentiate between their SLR and dedicated video offerings. There's so much stuff you can do to include "4K" on the box without encroaching on the professional video line.

My bet is the 5DIV will have 4K.
 
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Mt Spokane Photography said:
If you are a pro cinema photographer, customer support is a huge factor. Sony forces customers to wait weeks or months for consumer camera support, while Canon has set up shop in Hollywood for almost instant service. They have not only not abandoned the segment, they are moving in in a big way.

Look for new dedicated cinema products, the consumer and prosumer stuff is fine, but they are indeed looking to bring in a lot more $$ by producing cameras designed primarily for video.
[/]

Spot on.
 
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"Sony and Panasonic are not market leaders so they have to make alternative and hybrid products. Both have major flaws... the GH4 has skew and poor audio; the A7s has TONS of skew and poor battery life. Both are ergonomically awkward. If you're a business and you can afford a $2500 camera but not a $5000 camera, that's a deeper issue than Sony having slightly better video quality than Canon. (Because the 1080p out of the A7s is not leagues ahead of the 5D Mark III; it has much, much more skew, slightly better resolution, and significantly better DR.)"

I assume by skew you mean rolling shutter (correct me if I'm wrong). For me that is not an issue, which is why we are considering the Sony and Panasonic, but the better resolution and great DR at a MUCH LOWER POINT breaks the deal for me. The short battery life is not an issue, either.

Any upgrade path isn't going to consist of buying one camera body; it's going to be a big migration. It's why we hung on to the Canon platform for so long: to get a consist look. We can buy two C100's or four A7S for the same money... Figure the extra cost of more expensive batteries and accessories, and for us the math is very straight-forward. I totally agree that people should get the C series is they can afford it. For us it doesn't make sense.

The GH4's audio is obviously not production-level, but the grip that can be purchased is much better than the built-in stuff on the 5D3. (All bets are off when we start using external audio boxes.) It would be unfair to compare GH4's audio solution to the C series.

I enjoy your thoughtful and educated responses. All I'm saying is that at the DSLR level, Canon is no longer even a consideration.
 
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dash2k8 said:
All I'm saying is that at the DSLR level, Canon is no longer even a consideration.

Except for stills, which is, like, what dSLRS are made for.

And rolling shutter is a HUGE issue for most. If it's not for you... lucky you!

Yes, it's no fun buying a $6500 C100 and a $3500 5D Mark III (what I paid when I bought them) when an A7s can get close to both for $2500, but each Canon is the best in class for the price. Best price/performance... maybe the Sony.

But for me the rolling shutter is way too strong. Looks cheesy during pans. Gives a gross look. But if you keep the camera still and need low light it looks AMZING... I do want one.
 
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Busted Knuckles

Enjoy this breath and the next
Oct 2, 2013
227
2
In general, there is an accelerating rate of change in all electronics. 1st step is make something on a big chip, redesign the schematic to fit in ever smaller spaces, add more other somethings that have been similarly redesigned into small space all on the same size chip of the original whatever.

As Daniel and Starbucks noted - cannibalize yourself before someone else does. There is a real difference between Prosumer and Pro level 4k (soon 6k). The cost of equipment for the big productions is a very small portion of the overall budget so it is the best available at the time. Independent vid producers (lots of them) trying to get as close to the big budget output w/o the budget.

Is not production is easier to put together 1 assembly line and pump out a bunch of really functional chips than have 4 production lines with 4 chip designs? Takes someone w/ more expertise than me to answer.

There are a few thousand shooters at the world cup, olympics, etc and the major guys all have mini warehouses of stuff there for their shooters. Canon had a brilliant move to paint their lense white - you can see them at all the events and I get a shot of confidence that I shoot w/ the same stuff "the pros do"

All of this is to point that this is a retail business that has a couple of segments. P&S and dedicated "consumer" camcorder evaporated in less than 4 years (age of my granddaughter :) ). Consumer level HD is now the cell phone too.

The high end will be the high end and the mid-level i.e. Prosumer will get more and more functional (hooray for us). HBO used 5dII to vid the tight action shots with the horses in their series as losing a $2,500 camera was chump change compared to the $30,$50,$60k high end cameras they used for the stationary camera shots. They didn't use just 5dII for stationary camera shots on purpose. The 5dII was "good enough" for the tight/dangerous action shots but not for the stationary work.

The roiling and boiling will always be in the "mid level." Competition is always frustrating the product line planners by putting that next bit of function at price point X ahead of schedule.

Imagine if Canon really dropped the bomb on the mid-level and split it into 2 segments, the "mid high" a $10k camera w/ 6k vid, 0 rolling shutter, and 5:5:3 (or whatever whacked out number would be off the charts), a terabyte CF/CD card, with easy external recording options for Raw and offered it in both "C" and "D" body styles. Then "Mid Low" $3k ish, with 4k, minute amounts of rolling shutter, 4:4:2 or slightly better (perhaps even raw), in a "D" body style. Could Sony/Pano/Nikon even respond? 2-3 years latter there would be 0 competition? Canon would if they could. And within a few weeks - the high end would be even higher.

Canon doesn't' worry about the Independents not renting or buying C500s because 1Dc cannibalized the sale. They worry about the upgrade path to make it just worth it for you and me to retire our current and by the next mid-level camera. (And didn't even mention the MFT/APC sensor interplays).

Sometimes the product planners get it "right" and us consumers get a great set of functions at a good price point, sometimes they get it wrong on either end.
 
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Cheryll

Interest in lowlight photography/ video
Jun 26, 2014
14
0
Germany
The 4K in the 5dmk4 or 2DX is not interesting or possible for me.
What I want with this- I haven't a 4K TV and I don't want to by a 4K TV

More possible is:
Good video features with no less than DR from a7s (in video and still shot)
at the minimum 409000 ISO in real mode (not in extended)
pivoted live view
small body
 
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Nov 17, 2011
5,514
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dilbert said:
I asked someone in the know recently if Canon had market research on who buys the EOS 5D Mark III and for what purpose. I was told that the videographer focused purchaser of the EOS 5D Mark III was less than 10% of the total sales. The camera is, and has always been, for the still photographer.

What was the proportion for 5D Mark II sales (for video)?

To put another perspective on this, if you want to experiment with 4K video or start building your 4K catalogue then you're forced into buying Panasonic or Sony.
Speaking from minority group, I don't care about 4k or 8k. I need & want 5D 4 to perform extremly well in low light, faster frame rate, even more AF cross type and don't mind little DR improvement.
 
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