80D Heavy AA filter?

K-amps

EOR R
Aug 8, 2011
1,790
1
Indianapolis
I have been wanting to get a nice Canon APS-C sensor to go with my 100-400mm for Casual Birding. I waited for an improvement in sensor tech, and I think we are there.

There is a lot to like about the 80D. However, for Birding a sharp output is desired. Looking at the footage and comparison of the 80D with other bodies, it seems a bit softer. South of the 5Ds, this is the highest MP sensor that Canon offers , which should be able to provide reach and detail. I am a bit disappointed, it seems they used a heavy handed AA filter on this. Even compared to the 5D3, which already had a heavy AA filter, the 80D seems noticeably softer.

I then proceeded to compare it to the 20mp 70D, and again found it soft. Details are being smudged and might not be able to be recovered via post sharpening.

See the attached comparison to the older 70D (Image resource) on the left, looks quite sharper at base iso compared to the 80D.
 

Attachments

-1

EOS 80D
Dec 18, 2014
187
2
As IR states: "These images are JPEGs straight from the camera".

That that you percive as softness could be the result of a more conservative sharpening as much as a strong AA filter in the 80D. You got to compare RAW files to make an estimation of the cameras potential.
 

K-amps

EOR R
Aug 8, 2011
1,790
1
Indianapolis
-1 said:
As IR states: "These images are JPEGs straight from the camera".

That that you percive as softness could be the result of a more conservative sharpening as much as a strong AA filter in the 80D. You got to compare RAW files to make an estimation of the cameras potential.
What now?
 

Attachments

-1

EOS 80D
Dec 18, 2014
187
2
K-amps said:
-1 said:
As IR states: "These images are JPEGs straight from the camera".

That that you percive as softness could be the result of a more conservative sharpening as much as a strong AA filter in the 80D. You got to compare RAW files to make an estimation of the cameras potential.
What now?
If you look at the siemens stars in the link below you can see that the 80D matches the 70D pixel by pixel and will thus produce a sharper image at base ISO.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=canon_eos80d&attr13_1=canon_eos70d&attr13_2=canon_eos7dii&attr13_3=canon_eos7d&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=100&attr16_1=100&attr16_2=100&attr16_3=100&normalization=full&widget=1&x=-0.19950986012382493&y=0.2897634562617333

http://tinyurl.com/h3fa4ko
 

IglooEater

EOS 6D MK II
Nov 15, 2014
904
0
K-amps said:
-1 said:
As IR states: "These images are JPEGs straight from the camera".

That that you percive as softness could be the result of a more conservative sharpening as much as a strong AA filter in the 80D. You got to compare RAW files to make an estimation of the cameras potential.
What now?


What now is that dpreview is rather unprofessional and makes a lot of dumb mistakes- such as using one of canon's softest lenses to test camera sharpness.
Try this out: http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=1044&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=4&LensComp=458&CameraComp=845&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=4
The extra resolution offers an increase of a healthy 4lp/mm in the 80d vs the 70d before reaching the nyquist limit.
 

K-amps

EOR R
Aug 8, 2011
1,790
1
Indianapolis
I see little difference in Bryan's shots... and that little advantage goes to the 70D, which seems to have a little more micro-contrast, even before DLA sets in.

IR uses jpegs which were no good (even though it uses jpegs for the 70D as well) , and DPR uses bad lenses for only the 80D, seems like a conspiracy against the 80D. I can't see it better the 70D in apples to apples comparison in 3 different tests.

I must be glass eyed.
 

StudentOfLight

I'm on a life-long journey of self-discovery
Nov 2, 2013
1,444
1
37
Cape Town
K-amps said:
I have been wanting to get a nice Canon APS-C sensor to go with my 100-400mm for Casual Birding. I waited for an improvement in sensor tech, and I think we are there.

There is a lot to like about the 80D. However, for Birding a sharp output is desired. Looking at the footage and comparison of the 80D with other bodies, it seems a bit softer. South of the 5Ds, this is the highest MP sensor that Canon offers , which should be able to provide reach and detail. I am a bit disappointed, it seems they used a heavy handed AA filter on this. Even compared to the 5D3, which already had a heavy AA filter, the 80D seems noticeably softer.

I then proceeded to compare it to the 20mp 70D, and again found it soft. Details are being smudged and might not be able to be recovered via post sharpening.

See the attached comparison to the older 70D (Image resource) on the left, looks quite sharper at base iso compared to the 80D.
Both shots were taken at 70mm but the 70D shot was taken at f/4 while the 80D shot was taken at f/8. (You can see the difference in depth of field by how sharp the wall looks in the 80D shot) But of course at f/8 on the 80D is into diffraction limited territory. For max sharpness I'd hesitate to use higher than f/5.6. (f/6.3 is borderline for max sharpness.)

If you are using a big white lens then keep to f/4 or f/5.6 for max sharpness on pixel level. By f/8 ultimate sharpness will be lost (you can skillfully sharpen to compensate)
 

IglooEater

EOS 6D MK II
Nov 15, 2014
904
0
K-amps said:
I see little difference in Bryan's shots... and that little advantage goes to the 70D, which seems to have a little more micro-contrast, even before DLA sets in.

IR uses jpegs which were no good (even though it uses jpegs for the 70D as well) , and DPR uses bad lenses for only the 80D, seems like a conspiracy against the 80D. I can't see it better the 70D in apples to apples comparison in 3 different tests.

I must be glass eyed.
Lol, indeed
 

StudentOfLight

I'm on a life-long journey of self-discovery
Nov 2, 2013
1,444
1
37
Cape Town
FYI comparison between f/2 and f/8 from TDP:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=1044&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=458&CameraComp=1044&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5

Look what happens to centre sharpness at f/8.
 
Aug 23, 2013
2,322
37
Bahia Brazil
StudentOfLight said:
FYI comparison between f/2 and f/8 from TDP:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=1044&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=458&CameraComp=1044&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5

Look what happens to centre sharpness at f/8.
Wow !.
Diffraction is a huge damage in F8, and you can already see his influence in F5.6 ... :(

Canon, please I DO NOT want more than 24 megapixel on APS-C cameras. :-\
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,769
851
119
ajfotofilmagem said:
StudentOfLight said:
FYI comparison between f/2 and f/8 from TDP:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=1044&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=458&CameraComp=1044&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5

Look what happens to centre sharpness at f/8.
Wow !.
Diffraction is a huge damage in F8, and you can already see his influence in F5.6 ... :(

Canon, please I DO NOT want more than 24 megapixel on APS-C cameras. :-\
Diffraction is only 'more noticeable' if you enlarge bigger, ie 100% view. If you compare same sized output the higher MP will never look worse and can oftentimes look better.
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,612
2,846
ajfotofilmagem said:
StudentOfLight said:
FYI comparison between f/2 and f/8 from TDP:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=1044&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=458&CameraComp=1044&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5

Look what happens to centre sharpness at f/8.
Wow !.
Diffraction is a huge damage in F8, and you can already see his influence in F5.6 ... :(

Canon, please I DO NOT want more than 24 megapixel on APS-C cameras. :-\
The AA filter itself causes as much degradation as going from f/2 to f/8. I am not buying another camera with one. See:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=980&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=458&Sample=0&CameraComp=979&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0
 

Sharlin

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 26, 2015
1,033
530
Turku, Finland
ajfotofilmagem said:
StudentOfLight said:
FYI comparison between f/2 and f/8 from TDP:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=1044&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=458&CameraComp=1044&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5

Look what happens to centre sharpness at f/8.
Wow !.
Diffraction is a huge damage in F8, and you can already see his influence in F5.6 ... :(

Canon, please I DO NOT want more than 24 megapixel on APS-C cameras. :-\
What privatebydesign said. You need to compare apples to apples. Besides, if you play with the comparison tool even the 60D 18Mpix sensor shows clear diffraction blur at f/8. If anything, the 80D sensor will probably yield sharper pictures when downsampled to 18Mpix.
 

9VIII

EOR R
Feb 8, 2013
1,843
0
ajfotofilmagem said:
StudentOfLight said:
FYI comparison between f/2 and f/8 from TDP:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=1044&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=458&CameraComp=1044&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5

Look what happens to centre sharpness at f/8.
Wow !.
Diffraction is a huge damage in F8, and you can already see his influence in F5.6 ... :(

Canon, please I DO NOT want more than 24 megapixel on APS-C cameras. :-\
The idea that diffraction is making the image worse than it would have been otherwise is a false perception. Sensors with less resolution just look that bad all the time.
 

bdunbar79

EOS 5D MK IV
May 16, 2012
3,152
0
40
Wadsworth, OH
Photography forums run rampant with misunderstanding of diffraction and this thread is no exception. Diffraction is present in all apertures with all lenses on all sensors. Higher pixel density sensors can resolve diffraction at wider apertures than a lower density one, all else equal. So what's the problem? That does not equate to poorer IQ and if you think it does, then you have absolutely no clue about the topic.
 

K-amps

EOR R
Aug 8, 2011
1,790
1
Indianapolis
bdunbar79 said:
Photography forums run rampant with misunderstanding of diffraction and this thread is no exception. Diffraction is present in all apertures with all lenses on all sensors. Higher pixel density sensors can resolve diffraction at wider apertures than a lower density one, all else equal. So what's the problem? That does not equate to poorer IQ and if you think it does, then you have absolutely no clue about the topic.
Going back on topic, does the 80D have a heavy handed AA filter? Why is it softer than the 760 as well.

Would sticking a 1.4x TC on the 100-400 mk.ii make it worse on the 80D vs. 70d or 7d2?
 

Hillsilly

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 16, 2010
1,096
0
I don't think anyone here would really know the answer.

FWIW, I don't think Canon have ever released a camera that was significantly less sharp/worse than its predecessor. Yet every new release is tested (and marred) by the same online "authorities" who create the same level of doubt and uncertainty. My first DSLR was a 30D so I've taken an interest in the line. Trust me when I say the every successive model has been panned as being less sharp and more blurry than its predecessor. According to the experts, the 20D was better than my 30D. The 40D was generally liked, but didn't have quite the same clarity as the 30D (the 40D had more pixels). The 50D had the worst sensor ever in a Canon camera and nowhere near as good as the 40D (the 50D had more pixels). The 60D - piece of junk - it had even more pixels than the 50D. The 70D, like the 40D seemed to be liked, still, nowhere near as good as the competitors... And now we have the 80D, which according to "tests" seems ordinary (once again, too many pixels).

I think it was the introduction of the 50D when I realised that (most) of these comparison / testing sites are just there to make money for the owners. For those who don't know, Canon went from 10mp in the 40D to 15mp in the 50D. Some mathematician somewhere did some calculation to work out the pixel density. And the number was so high that it proved that the 50D could never outperform a 40D. After all, as we all know, APS-C sensors are most optimal at 10mp...

IMHO, almost every claim made by testing / comparison sites about most cameras are debatable, and often clearly wrong. They don't have much relevance to most people's real world photography needs. You are much better served reading reviews / viewing images by people who use that camera for the same purpose than looking at test charts. Start following some 80D birders and hear their actual feedback on whether the images are detailed and clear. (I'd also be curious on their opinion of the camera's AF performance - which I'd view as significantly more important than minor sensor differences.)

So clear your head of the noise. If the 80D has the specs that you need, and its in the right price range and gets favourable reviews from people who actually use the camera for birding - it will be fine.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,213
398
Hillsilly - I so wish I could give you 50 upticks for that piece of commonsense!

I recall a long discussion I had with a professoinal bird photographer who was convinced that the pictures from a 50D was noisier than pictures from his 40D. It turned out he had never used the camera, merely basing his argument on the myriad idiot reviewers and their prejudices.
 

StudentOfLight

I'm on a life-long journey of self-discovery
Nov 2, 2013
1,444
1
37
Cape Town
I was not not saying that the higher res body would be worse than the lower res body, but when shooting at f/8 on 24MP APS-C you'd be shooting at settings which erode the potential benefits (in fine detail) that the higher number of smaller pixels would have given. The 80D at f/8 would be worse than the 80D at f/4, assuming you had sufficient dof in both cases. Basically, f/8 - f/32 would be sub-optimal camera settings for the 80D if you are interested in retaining fine detail.
 
Aug 23, 2013
2,322
37
Bahia Brazil
StudentOfLight said:
I was not not saying that the higher res body would be worse than the lower res body, but when shooting at f/8 on 24MP APS-C you'd be shooting at settings which erode the potential benefits (in fine detail) that the higher number of smaller pixels would have given. The 80D at f/8 would be worse than the 80D at f/4, assuming you had sufficient dof in both cases. Basically, f/8 - f/32 would be sub-optimal camera settings for the 80D if you are interested in retaining fine detail.
Diminishing returns. Only that.

I stated that NO desire APS-C cameras with more than 24 megapixel because the benefits are restricted to diaphragm openings larger than F5.6.

A hypothetical APS-C camera with more than 30 megapixel, lose the benefit of additional sharpness in F4 openings, and this would make it limited to the use of wide landscapes. It would not be a worse camera than 70d, but would diminishing returns.