A Bit More About the New “Big White” Lenses Coming from Canon [CR3]

tron

EOS 5D SR
Nov 8, 2011
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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

neuroanatomist said:
danski0224 said:
As far as clickbait goes :), it would be a certainty that Canon would update the bread and butter 400 f/2.8 and 600 f/4 lenses to function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out.

I would assume that there are updates to the lens AF motors, possibly the aperture motor to allow more FPS, internal electronics and communications protocols.

And of course, it is an easy excuse to obsolete upper 4 figure and 5 figure lenses so you have to buy new ones...
Why do you think the current versions won't function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out? My 600/4 II functions properly with my M6...
+1 Finally some facts. In addition 1DxII fps are more than enough and all lenses cope perfectly with these. Add the fact that the version II tele lenses are firmware upgradeable (although this must be done by Canon most probably) and we have a long term telephoto solution.
 

danski0224

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 24, 2011
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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

neuroanatomist said:
Why do you think the current versions won't function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out? My 600/4 II functions properly with my M6...
I'm sure that there are improvements to be made.

A parallel would be the changes in Sigma lenses from the "non- Art" to the current Art series lenses. While not Canon, something has changed inside the lenses because the "old" style has erratic or no focus when used with the Sigma sdQ mirrorless camera (even the USM motor lenses). Those "old" style lenses work just fine with the Sigma DSLR cameras.

It must have something to do with the focus motor precision and type of communication. Obviously, Sigma has reverse-engineered the Canon AF process, but the AF issues using native Sigma lenses on Sigma camera bodies between the Sigma DSLR cameras and their latest mirrorless offering do exist.

Communication speed between the camera body and lens internals is something else that can be tweaked.

Of course, it could be some fancy new coating and a different shade of paint... but the internal stuff above could also have driven the 70-200 f/2.8III. Canon probably wouldn't disclose it.
 

neuroanatomist

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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

danski0224 said:
neuroanatomist said:
Why do you think the current versions won't function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out? My 600/4 II functions properly with my M6...
I'm sure that there are improvements to be made.

A parallel would be the changes in Sigma lenses from the "non- Art" to the current Art series lenses. While not Canon, something has changed inside the lenses because the "old" style has erratic or no focus when used with the Sigma sdQ mirrorless camera (even the USM motor lenses). Those "old" style lenses work just fine with the Sigma DSLR cameras.

It must have something to do with the focus motor precision and type of communication. Obviously, Sigma has reverse-engineered the Canon AF process, but the AF issues using native Sigma lenses on Sigma camera bodies between the Sigma DSLR cameras and their latest mirrorless offering do exist.

Communication speed between the camera body and lens internals is something else that can be tweaked.

Of course, it could be some fancy new coating and a different shade of paint... but the internal stuff above could also have driven the 70-200 f/2.8III. Canon probably wouldn't disclose it.
Irrelevant. You're 'answering' my question with a discussion about possible improvements and 3rd party compatibility problems. You stated that Canon superteles need to be updated, "...to function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out." So I'll ask again...Why do you think the current versions won't function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out? Especially given that current superteles function just fine with current Canon mirrorless cameras.

It's ok if you can't come up with a cogent answer, you were probably just spreading FUD anyway.
 

unfocused

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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

danski0224 said:
... but the internal stuff above could also have driven the 70-200 f/2.8III. Canon probably wouldn't disclose it.
That doesn't make any sense. If a company makes an improvement to a product why wouldn't they talk about it? A simple statement like, "improvements to internal electronics to improve autofocus accuracy with the next generation of Canon cameras," would be a standard marketing phrase that Canon would have certainly highlighted if it were the case.

Of course, if such improvements aren't necessary because the lenses already will work just fine with future generations of cameras, then any imagined "internal stuff" wouldn't be disclosed because they don't exist.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

neuroanatomist said:
jolyonralph said:
Talys said:
Nearly all of the modern EF L lenses work flawlessly with live view DPAF; certainly, all of the most popular primes and f/4 and f/2.8 L zooms. Some of the of the older EF's don't work so great, but some of they also don't work as well using the dedicated PDAF sensor.
It's the *nearly all* that is the problem. Potentially Canon could get away with it by immediately withdrawing from sale/upgrading all of the older lenses that don't work so well with DPAF - and there's quite a few that would be affected.

Otherwise Canon have the nightmare of trying to sell a new camera which isn't totally compatible with all the lenses for that mount currently on sale.
Can someone indicate which specific EF L lenses don't 'work flawlessly with live view DPAF' and how their performance is lacking?
I should rephrase.

Every single EF L lens I've ever seen works better on a 6DII in live view mode with DPAF than any lens of any make on a Sony A7R3 when it comes to autofocus speed and ability to lock without hunting in either continuous or single autofocus mode.

However, they're not all equal. Some EF L lenses definitely feel like they focus more quickly and quietly than other EF L lenses. For example, an 100mm/2.8 prime works great in live view DPAF mode, but a 70-200/2.8 at 100mm feels faster and quieter (it's a purely unscientific "feels like to me" observation; I could be wrong).
 

danski0224

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 24, 2011
1,089
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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

Most of this thread is FUD, so a little bit more can't hurt.

:)
 

neuroanatomist

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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

Talys said:
Can someone indicate which specific EF L lenses don't 'work flawlessly with live view DPAF' and how their performance is lacking?
I should rephrase.

Every single EF L lens I've ever seen works better on a 6DII in live view mode with DPAF than any lens of any make on a Sony A7R3 when it comes to autofocus speed and ability to lock without hunting in either continuous or single autofocus mode.

However, they're not all equal. Some EF L lenses definitely feel like they focus more quickly and quietly than other EF L lenses. For example, an 100mm/2.8 prime works great in live view DPAF mode, but a 70-200/2.8 at 100mm feels faster and quieter (it's a purely unscientific "feels like to me" observation; I could be wrong).
Of course they're not all equal. The 70-200/2.8L II focuses faster and more quietly than the 100/2.8L Macro using dedicated PDAF (viewfinder) as well as in live view (old-style CDAF, Hybrid CMOS, or DPAF). The 85/1.2L's AF was, to be polite, ponderous. Those differences are due to intrinsic properties of the lenses. But your statement implied that some lenses don't work well specifically with DPAF, or at least that's how I interpreted it (as did jolyonralph).

Perhaps jolyonralph can clarify which lenses Canon would have to 'immediately withdraw from sale' to avoid a 'nightmare'.

I'd ask danski0224, but it's now obvious he was just making crap up as he went along.
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

EF lenses (except the 3 STM, 1 Nano-USM) were designed solely for mirrorslapper stills capture using off-sensor Phase Detect AF unit. they will not have the same AF performance in live view mode (DSLRs) and on mirrorless cams - including Canon DPAF implementations up to now (they differ, depending on Canon EOS model - eg 5d4 better than 6d2 or m5/m6). maybe future generations of Canon DPAF sensors, DIGIC hardware capabilities and smartness of algorithms used will change this. but so far, even the relatively best implementations of Canon DPAF are not delivering better performance (if at all) in stills shooting than current-gen Hybrid on-sensor AF (eg Sony A7iii, A9). definitely not with "standard USM" EF lenses. on the other side ALL Sony FE lenses are optimized for mirrorless operation, all of them have (different versions) of Linear Stepper motor AF drives. so (speculation!) maybe current Canon DP-AF implementations do indeed have a slight advantage over Sony's hybrid AF - but in practice it is equalized by lenses ability to play along well enough with on-sensor AF.

Canon will also have to apply more effort towards the computational side of multi-pixel AF. it makes a difference to cross-relate phase shifted signals from a separate PD- AF sensor behind its own optical system [2 sharp but dark images] vs. on-sensor DP-AF [2 bright but blurry images]. advent of face + eye detect AF in M50 is hopefully a good sign for Canon finally stepping up to the plate.

in short: i fully expect Canon DPAF (or eventually Quad-pixel AF) to eventually leverage their conceptional superiority and deliver "best-in class AF performance" in real products - but only in combination with new lenses that are optimized for it and able to fully utilize multi-pixel AF. "legacy" EF glass will never qualify for this.

PS: it would be fabulous if Roger Cicala would look into this. comparing DPAF performance (stills capture, one- shot and servo/tracking AF) of a few Canon L and non L EF lenses - with Ring USM, Nano USM, DC Micro Motor, STM, on a few Canon DPAF cameras. ideally compared to sony A7III and A9 with a few FE lenses. i shall drop him a note. :)

PPS: just to mention it: this is not necessarily related to a new mount, it could likely also be done in current EF mount.
 

neuroanatomist

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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

fullstop said:
I n short: i fully expect Canon DPAF (or eventually Quad-pixel AF) to eventually leverage their conceptional superiority and deliver "best-in class AF performance" in real products - but only in combination with new lenses that are optimized for it and able to fully utilize multi-pixel AF. "legacy" EF glass will never qualify for this.
A lens has a focusing group – one or more elements that move forward/backward to bring the image into focus at the image plane. The focusing group is driven by a motor, of various types and speeds, but all with the same function – moving the focusing group to the position specified by the camera body to which the lens is attached. What about that needs to be 'optimized to fully utilize multipixel AF'? (Hint: the correct response is, "Nothing.")

Just more FUD.
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

neuroanatomist said:
fullstop said:
I n short: i fully expect Canon DPAF (or eventually Quad-pixel AF) to eventually leverage their conceptional superiority and deliver "best-in class AF performance" in real products - but only in combination with new lenses that are optimized for it and able to fully utilize multi-pixel AF. "legacy" EF glass will never qualify for this.
A lens has a focusing group – one or more elements that move forward/backward to bring the image into focus at the image plane. The focusing group is driven by a motor, of various types and speeds, but all with the same function – moving the focusing group to the position specified by the camera body to which the lens is attached. What about that needs to be 'optimized to fully utilize multipixel AF'? (Hint: the correct response is, "Nothing.")
"in principle" yes.
"in practice": apparently no.
There are a good number of steps and components involved to determine and communicate direction, amount and speed of required AF group/s movement ...

I expect "full extent of legacy EF glass functional limitations" on mirrorless cams/on-sensor DPAF will become more evident once new native EF-X glass becomes available that will all of a sudden be capable of "Sony-esque" things. :)
 

tron

EOS 5D SR
Nov 8, 2011
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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

neonlight said:
Then the only lens that needed update - the EF85mm 1.2L II - has kinda of being updated in the form of EF85mm 1.4L IS. All other lenses have satisfactory to superb speed...
 

jolyonralph

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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

neuroanatomist said:
A lens has a focusing group – one or more elements that move forward/backward to bring the image into focus at the image plane. The focusing group is driven by a motor, of various types and speeds, but all with the same function – moving the focusing group to the position specified by the camera body to which the lens is attached. What about that needs to be 'optimized to fully utilize multipixel AF'? (Hint: the correct response is, "Nothing.")
The EF 70-300 IS, for example, is a lens that when used on the EOS M5 with official adaptor is next to useless. It hunts forwards and backwards constantly when trying to focus.

Why is this? Why should it perform worse on a mirrorless camera than on a DSLR? The only thing I can think of is that the camera tries to estimate how much to refocus the lens to adjust based on focusing data, sends the signal to the lens to refocus, which in this case adjusts too much, causing the camera to adjust back again, etc etc.

The EF-M 55-200 to compare has absolutely none of these characteristics and focuses quickly and smoothly.
 

danski0224

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 24, 2011
1,089
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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

neuroanatomist said:
What about that needs to be 'optimized to fully utilize multipixel AF'? (Hint: the correct response is, "Nothing.")

Just more FUD.
Precision, position feedback come to mind....

but WTF do I know.

Sigma is revamping their lenses for no reason, apparently, because you know all...
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

jolyonralph said:
The EF 70-300 IS, for example, is a lens that when used on the EOS M5 with official adaptor is next to useless. It hunts forwards and backwards constantly when trying to focus.
Original version or Mk. II of the 70-300 IS? Would be interesting, since Mk. II got Nano-USM focus drive, which - at least in theory - might/should work better with mirrorless/DPAF [Liveview mode].
 

neuroanatomist

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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

neonlight said:
So you’re saying that current L series lenses with ring USM motors focus too fast for mirror less cameras? That’s why all of Canon’s EF-M lenses have the slower STM motors, which are ‘optimized for mirrorless’ (but are also used in EF and EF-S lenses).

Yeah, that makes oodles of sense. ::)
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

main reason for STM lenses was silent operation for video use. But those linear stepper motors also seem to be able to handle signals from on-sensor PDAF better than (regular) USM lenses.

Maybe [speculation!] it [also] has to do with "mechanical play in the manual focus gear" of EF lenses. "That whole antiquated 19th century helicoid mechanical sh*t"! Not as precise or fast than a "really right" dual LEM AF drive. :)

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/04/a-look-at-electromagnetic-focusing/
 
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jolyonralph

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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

neuroanatomist said:
So you’re saying that current L series lenses with ring USM motors focus too fast for mirror less cameras?
It's not the L lenses that are likely to be the problem. It's the lower-priced non-L lenses such as the 70-300 example I gave.

A simple solution would be for Canon to remove from their lineup all of the older lenses that don't perform well with a new mirrorless EF body. As long as they don't actively sell lenses that don't work well with the new body there's no problem.
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

may i ask again please: 70-300 IS USM or Mk. II of that lens?
 

neuroanatomist

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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

jolyonralph said:
The EF 70-300 IS, for example, is a lens that when used on the EOS M5 with official adaptor is next to useless. It hunts forwards and backwards constantly when trying to focus.
Which 70-300 IS lens? (There are four: Non-L, non-L MkII, L, DO.)