A Cinema Series DSLR Isn't Happening, But a New Cinema Line Likely is [CR1]

[Canon Rumors Guy]

Ever since the Canon EOS-1D C, there has been a lot of chatter and desire to see another “C” labeled DSLR. The EOS-1D C was quite expensive, at more than twice the price of the very similar EOS-1D X and it didn’t sell all that well until it saw heavy discounts.</p>
<p>We’re being told again, in a very cryptic manner that a new cinema ILC series of camera is likely coming by the end of 2018. The source claims that the final decision about releasing the product has not yet been made and that there is still a possibility it will get shelved.</p>
<p>The source did note that their no sign that a EOS C100 Mark II replacement is on the way and the EOS C200 could become the entry level Cinema EOS camera and that this new form factor ILC will bridge the gap between EOS still cameras and Cinema EOS cameras.</p>
<p>This is all very interesting, and we think there is some plausibility behind it all. As such, we’ll remain cautiously optimistic.</p>
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[Canoneer]

An XC variant with a super 35 sensor and 4K 60FPS w/C-Log would be quite welcome. Especially if it competes with the Panny GH5S in terms of price.

 

[tmroper]

I don't shoot all that much video, but the XC's Hasselblad H-like form factor always looked like it made a lot of sense to me. Because I've used an H series a couple of times (briefly), and that thing handled better than any camera I've ever used. I think a lot of it is due to the space between the grip and the body--it just allows you to really hold on comfortably by getting your thumb around the grip. The loup thing on the XC looks pretty weird, but a 45 degree finder is a great thing in general, too. So I can see possibilities here...

 

[Graphic.Artifacts]

Canon's long term strategy for Video may make sense to some folks at Canon but I don't know anyone else who understands it.

I'd say the opportunity for a "C" designated DSLR has long passed but a reasonably affordable line of usable EF compatable video cams would be very welcome. However, it seems unlikely given the extent to which Canon has undercut the video capabilities of it's existing offerings.

 

[CanoKnight]

After the release of the Sony A7 III Canon is irrelevant.

 

[preppyak]

Canon's long term strategy for Video may make sense to some folks at Canon but I don't know anyone else who understands it.

I'd say the opportunity for a "C" designated DSLR has long passed but a reasonably affordable line of usable EF compatable video cams would be very welcome. However, it seems unlikely given the extent to which Canon has undercut the video capabilities of it's existing offerings.

They've made a lot of decisions that work well for the pro market, where maybe being a little under-spec'd is fine as long as it works 100% of the time. There were a lot of documentaries and TV shows shot on the C300 and other Canon cine cameras because they were reliable.

But they have comically failed the <$5k market. Cant imagine anyone in that price range even considering a Canon camera anytime soon when Panasonic, Sony, and Blackmagic have more than filled the void

 

[gsealy]

After the release of the Sony A7 III Canon is irrelevant.

Yep, the A7 III. The GH5 and the GH5s are doing heavy damage too. A lot of indy filmmakers are using it. Very high frame rates are supported.

The other thing is the ProRes Raw codec. Atomos is supporting it. It will be the new standard and supported by all the NLEs.

The bottom line is that Canon is not competing in this price/feature space.

 

[gsealy]

Canon's long term strategy for Video may make sense to some folks at Canon but I don't know anyone else who understands it.

I'd say the opportunity for a "C" designated DSLR has long passed but a reasonably affordable line of usable EF compatable video cams would be very welcome. However, it seems unlikely given the extent to which Canon has undercut the video capabilities of it's existing offerings.

They've made a lot of decisions that work well for the pro market, where maybe being a little under-spec'd is fine as long as it works 100% of the time. There were a lot of documentaries and TV shows shot on the C300 and other Canon cine cameras because they were reliable.

But they have comically failed the <$5k market. Cant imagine anyone in that price range even considering a Canon camera anytime soon when Panasonic, Sony, and Blackmagic have more than filled the void

I agree. The amazing thing is the Canon had the video market in the palm of their hand with the 5DIII. They did have the right idea with the 1Dc although it was expensive. Then they let other companies grab that market with really great products. People like myself were hoping that the 5DIV would be "The Camera," but it pales against the A7III, GH5, and GH5s. Either Canon gives up on that market, or they fight back. Selling a dumbed-down video camera against that competition is just going to flop.

 

[tmroper]

The amazing thing is the Canon had the video market in the palm of their hand with the 5DIII.

Canon, Sony, and Panasonic (and some others) have been competing against each other in the video market for a couple of decades now. Even in 2018, they all have released new ENG-style cameras, because that's still where a lot of the video market is. The hybrid-DSLR thing was and is popular among amateurs, some indie film-makers (and other low budget productions), and wedding photographers, but it's wrong to mix the markets and the products in them. The "video" market is very distinct from the low budget filmmaking market, which is very distinct from the amateur market, etc. Basically, there's no such thing as one "video market" and certainly no one product or form factor to serve all video needs.

 

[sanj]

Is this even worthy of a post? No info here. Just rambling...

 

[transpo1]

After the release of the Sony A7 III Canon is irrelevant.

Yep, the A7 III. The GH5 and the GH5s are doing heavy damage too. A lot of indy filmmakers are using it. Very high frame rates are supported.

The other thing is the ProRes Raw codec. Atomos is supporting it. It will be the new standard and supported by all the NLEs.

The bottom line is that Canon is not competing in this price/feature space.

Good assessment. Even the Fujis have added 120fps Full HD and log now.

 

[planetMitch]

The amazing thing is the Canon had the video market in the palm of their hand with the 5DIII.

Canon, Sony, and Panasonic (and some others) have been competing against each other in the video market for a couple of decades now. Even in 2018, they all have released new ENG-style cameras, because that's still where a lot of the video market is. The hybrid-DSLR thing was and is popular among amateurs, some indie film-makers (and other low budget productions), and wedding photographers, but it's wrong to mix the markets and the products in them. The "video" market is very distinct from the low budget filmmaking market, which is very distinct from the amateur market, etc. Basically, there's no such thing as one "video market" and certainly no one product or form factor to serve all video needs.

Finally, someone with common sense.

Canon is #1 in sales around the globe by a long margin.

Mirrorless has been stuck at the same sales levels for the last 3 years or more.

Canon understands their markets better than anyone. And folks posting on forums about how sony/panny is beating Canon doesn't understand the markets and the numbers.

"The sky is falling"

 

[planetMitch]

After the release of the Sony A7 III Canon is irrelevant.

One of the funniest comments I've seen recently. Thanks.

Canon is #1 in the market in sales.

 

[gsealy]

After the release of the Sony A7 III Canon is irrelevant.

Yep, the A7 III. The GH5 and the GH5s are doing heavy damage too. A lot of indy filmmakers are using it. Very high frame rates are supported.

The other thing is the ProRes Raw codec. Atomos is supporting it. It will be the new standard and supported by all the NLEs.

The bottom line is that Canon is not competing in this price/feature space.

Good assessment. Even the Fujis have added 120fps Full HD and log now.

Fuji is coming on. Make no mistake about it. Their GFX50s is an amazing camera. It blows away ANYTHING that Canon has to offer. And I expect Fuji to be more aggressive in the video area in the coming year. One thing that Fuji does is to continue to provide firmware updates with new features long after a camera's initial release.

I own six Canon cameras, so I am a Canon guy. But I am not going to stick my head in the sand and say no other company is a viable competitor. People say that the A7III, GH5, and GH5s are used by amateurs. Yet, when you go on various forums and social media sites you see that people are shooting commericals, corporate videos, and films with them. So, people are making money, aka professionals. These companies are going to eat Canon from the bottom up. They will keep on offering Canon alternatives with better features at lower prices. Pretty soon people are going to say, "Why am I spending all this money for Canon when this other camera does just as well and in some cases better?"

 

[CarlMillerPhoto]

<p>The source did note that their no sign that a EOS C100 Mark II replacement is on the way and the EOS C200 could become the entry level Cinema EOS camera and that this new form factor ILC will bridge the gap between EOS still cameras and Cinema EOS cameras.</p>

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Translation: A C100 III would give away too many features for the price point we'd have to sell it at ($5k), so we're going to create a lesser camera instead.

I'll be very upset if Canon abandons the C100 line. It's the perfect wedding camera and I'm not going to spend $7.5k on a C200 for features I don't need (raw recording, SDI). While a beefed up little XC camera would be great, it's not going to have all the features of a C100 that I do need (2, 4, & 6 ND stops, built in EVF, removable handle, dual card recording, full size HDMI, etc.).

The C100 line has been a homerun. Tons of units sold. A replacement is already overdue. What is Canon thinking?

 

[privatebydesign]

After the release of the Sony A7 III Canon is irrelevant.

Yep, the A7 III. The GH5 and the GH5s are doing heavy damage too. A lot of indy filmmakers are using it. Very high frame rates are supported.

The other thing is the ProRes Raw codec. Atomos is supporting it. It will be the new standard and supported by all the NLEs.

The bottom line is that Canon is not competing in this price/feature space.

Good assessment. Even the Fujis have added 120fps Full HD and log now.

Not really. Canon don't make M4/3 cameras and Panasonic don't have video AF worth a darn, so they are different cameras for different users. If you look at the video crops from Canon DSLR's they are generally still bigger than the M4/3 cameras.

ProRes RAW is this weeks cool catch phrase, it doesn't meet the HDMI standard so there are no cameras that can record it over HDMI, none, not Panasonic and not Sony, and there might well never be. You can only record ProRes RAW on 8 cameras at the moment* and they are all via SDI to an Atomos SDI enabled recorder with firmware upgrade (the Shogun Inferno and Sumo), Canon make 2 of the 8 cameras. *One of the 8 can do it internally, the Zenmuse X7 for drones. It is very early days for ProRes RAW yet.

People read spec sheets and don't look into the background of actual usability. To shoot ProRes RAW you need one of 8 cameras, you need at least an Atomos Shogun Inferno with the new firmware and an approved SSD (around $1,300 minimum), it then helps if you are using Apple computers and FCPX in particular because that is the one program that runs ProRes RAW easily on a computer that doesn't cost more then $3,000.

So Canon added Log to the 5D MkIV and it had 60fps already on a much bigger sensor with class leading AF, I don't get your point, let alone believe it was a good assessment.

 

[syder]

After the release of the Sony A7 III Canon is irrelevant.

Yep, the A7 III. The GH5 and the GH5s are doing heavy damage too. A lot of indy filmmakers are using it. Very high frame rates are supported.

The other thing is the ProRes Raw codec. Atomos is supporting it. It will be the new standard and supported by all the NLEs.

The bottom line is that Canon is not competing in this price/feature space.

Good assessment. Even the Fujis have added 120fps Full HD and log now.

Not really. Canon don't make M4/3 cameras and Panasonic don't have video AF worth a darn, so they are different cameras for different users. If you look at the video crops from Canon DSLR's they are generally still bigger than the M4/3 cameras.

ProRes RAW is this weeks cool catch phrase, it doesn't meet the HDMI standard so there are no cameras that can record it over HDMI, none, not Panasonic and not Sony, and there might well never be. You can only record ProRes RAW on 8 cameras at the moment* and they are all via SDI to an Atomos SDI enabled recorder with firmware upgrade (the Shogun Inferno and Sumo), Canon make 2 of the 8 cameras. *One of the 8 can do it internally, the Zenmuse X7 for drones. It is very early days for ProRes RAW yet.

People read spec sheets and don't look into the background of actual usability. To shoot ProRes RAW you need one of 8 cameras, you need at least an Atomos Shogun Inferno with the new firmware and an approved SSD (around $1,300 minimum), it then helps if you are using Apple computers and FCPX in particular because that is the one program that runs ProRes RAW easily on a computer that doesn't cost more then $3,000.

So Canon added Log to the 5D MkIV and it had 60fps already on a much bigger sensor with class leading AF, I don't get your point, let alone believe it was a good assessment.

Not to mention that if you want to shoot RAW you can just buy a C200 and shoot it internally using a codec that is already supported by AMC, Premiere, Resolve and FCPX.

The C200 competes with the GH5 in the same way that an Alexa or Weapon competes with the C200. And no, Arri and Red are not doomed because you can shoot internal 4k60p RAW in CLOG on a C200.

 

[Etienne]

This does not bode well for the one-man-band who wants decent cinema-like quality footage. We are often dealing with low light and need to reduce as much weight as possible. It seems like forever that I have been waiting for the C100 mark III, but it is not to be.