A couple of EOS R cameras that can be considered “pro” are in the pipeline [CR1]

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
769
335
"We’re told that there is a general feeling professional sports shooters (and other professional EOS-1D shooters) will be the last to embrace mirrorless cameras across the board"
Pro sports shooters? Both of them switched to the Sony A9 last I heard.;)

Seriously, an R with a joystick, two cards and an ISO button would be all I need.
They're certainly not as large of a piece of the marketplace as they used to be. There are too many wealthy "semi-pro" enthusiasts willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on gear and then shoot for peanuts, if not for nothing, just to have access to games. It's worse now than it was back in 2015 when this was written:

What Killed Editorial Sports Photography?: You’ve Got To Hustle As A Sports Shooter These Days
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,454
2,609
They're certainly not as large of a piece of the marketplace as they used to be. There are too many wealthy "semi-pro" enthusiasts willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on gear and then shoot for peanuts, if not for nothing, just to have access to games. It's worse now than it was back in 2015 when this was written:

What Killed Editorial Sports Photography?: You’ve Got To Hustle As A Sports Shooter These Days
That was a depressing article by pros. So, the market is being driven by wealthy and not so wealthy amateurs.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
769
335
https://ymcinema.com/2019/05/06/canon-cinema-business-shows-17-drop-in-sales/

After ALL that Canon have done to protect their precious little cinema eos system -- this happens ?? LMAO.
Right in the middle of the graphic at your link:

Note: Businesses such as broadcast equipment and cinema use video cameras that were included in Imaging System were reclassified to industry and Other.

These numbers do not even include cinema cameras any more.

I agree, however, a full frame 7D is... 1Dx. And making an APC-S R camera? Isn't it a step toward the M's?

Crazy idea, but worth thinking about, Take the 7D body (for the ergonomics) place a mirrorless system (to replace the mirror, pentaprism etc) and you have a nice room for IBIS (5 axis if you like), and you get the best of all worlds, ergonomics already made (perfect as far as I can see it) and mirrorless. The only problem is that you can't call it 7R for obvious seasons. 7D-R?
R7. Canon had no qualms about putting the EOS 1D up against Nikon's D1 back in the day.


"Very poor"...it was better than the competition when it was released. People bang on it in retrospect because soon after its release Nikon released new APS-C cameras that legitimately did do better at high ISO and of course had better DR(oning). But for the time and sensor size the 7D wasn't bad at either. And low ISO detail was very, very good.

On the day of its release though it was better than Nikon's offerings in all respects.
On the day of its release the 7D sensor wasn't even as good as the one in the 50D I replaced with the 7D.


Translation: you could pixel peep to a higher magnification than your previous camera.

Really, people should have to take a class and pass a test before being able to unlock 100% viewing in image editors.

Funny I didn't have that problem.
Forget pixel peeping. You can see the low ISO noise in the sky when viewing the entire image downsized to fit a 24" monitor. Viewing images from the 7D next to images from the 50D, much less the 5D Mark II, when both were displayed at the same size was very telling.
 

Normalnorm

EOS 7D MK II
Dec 25, 2012
516
127
That was a depressing article by pros. So, the market is being driven by wealthy and not so wealthy amateurs.
Once the world transitioned to digital, imaging was accessible to a much larger cohort. In addition, the demands of digital R&D meant that greater volumes of product needed to be moved to get the costs to a manageable level. The two curves met at what seemed to be very high prices initially but well heeled amateurs and news organizations paid for the early gear. As costs declined, more enthusiasts got into the game and news orgs were going broke. This has left the industry dependent on hobbyists and semi-pros that churn gear.
The latest drops in sales by the camera manufacturers represent the saturation of the market. The gear sold in the last few years have reached sufficiency and many owners of new gear are realizing their last purchases did not transport them to the promised land and feel (rightfully) that the newest intros will unlikely do it either.
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,722
813
119
That was a depressing article by pros. So, the market is being driven by wealthy and not so wealthy amateurs.
Oh yes, I have said many times the non pro posters here have more valuable and modern equipment than most of the actual working pros I know.

My best pro friend shoots competitive college level sports, he is regularly displaced, teams are very limited in their pass allocations, by another friend who tunes the piano for the band but has all the latest gear and shoots for free for access. Only a fool believes there is a business model as a traditional pro sports shooter now, or has been for quite some time.
 
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TAF

EOS RP
Feb 26, 2012
339
27
Oh yes, I have said many times the non pro posters here have more valuable and modern equipment than most of the actual working pros I know.

My best pro friend shoots competitive college level sports, he is regularly displaced, teams are very limited in their pass allocations, by another friend who tunes the piano for the band but has all the latest gear and shoots for free for access. Only a fool believes their is a business model as a traditional pro sports shooter now, or has been for quite some time.
With all due respect to the pro, if the team is satisfied with the results from the free piano tuner guy such that they use him instead of the pro, then either the team has low expectations and is more concerned with cost, or said pro needs to up his game.

Because we know that the equipment doesn’t matter that much, right?
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
769
335
With all due respect to the pro, if the team is satisfied with the results from the free piano tuner guy such that they use him instead of the pro, then either the team has low expectations and is more concerned with cost, or said pro needs to up his game.

Because we know that the equipment doesn’t matter that much, right?
It's all about cost to the people who make those decisions. If it's for free, it's for me!

Most of those shooters are at least competent. Many are pretty good and some are great. There's never been a dividing line where all "pros" are at one level above all "semi-pros" who are better than all "amateurs." It's just a shame that now one needs to be pretty much independently wealthy to even get access to show what one is capable of producing.
 

proutprout

EOS M50
Nov 25, 2018
33
39
Sony is killing all sales in mirrorless sector, and its crazy to me how canon is shooting themselves in the foot with bad products. Eos R is a sales disaster because of it’s limitations, but it doesnt seem to occur to anyone at canon that they need to stop doing what they are doing currently and change. Nope, let’s continue with products no one wants, we’ll be fine ! A mirrorless 1d was needed 6 month ago for a low price to make everyone believe the company can still actually deliver something. But apparently not. Let’s put 3k lenses on amateur bodies that makes a lot of sense ! Marvelous !
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
3,737
1,305
Irving, Texas
With all due respect to the pro, if the team is satisfied with the results from the free piano tuner guy such that they use him instead of the pro, then either the team has low expectations and is more concerned with cost, or said pro needs to up his game.

Because we know that the equipment doesn’t matter that much, right?
What makes one think an amateur/enthusiast can't shoot better photos than a professional (simply means he gets paid)? I think the idea that a professional is automatically better than a non-professional is silly.
 
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CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
3,737
1,305
Irving, Texas
Sony is killing all sales in mirrorless sector, and its crazy to me how canon is shooting themselves in the foot with bad products. Eos R is a sales disaster because of it’s limitations, but it doesnt seem to occur to anyone at canon that they need to stop doing what they are doing currently and change. Nope, let’s continue with products no one wants, we’ll be fine ! A mirrorless 1d was needed 6 month ago for a low price to make everyone believe the company can still actually deliver something. But apparently not. Let’s put 3k lenses on amateur bodies that makes a lot of sense ! Marvelous !
:rolleyes: And yet, Sony is quickly losing market share to Canon and Nikon in the FF MILC sector and really doesn't compete at all in the crop sensor area. You say nobody wants what Canon is putting out... yet many here on the forum have bought in. People do want the products. Now, if Sony could possibly figure out how to make a 200mm, 300mm, 500mm, 600mm, or 800mm lens or something in tilt/shift... Sony might survive. Otherwise, Sony's MILC camera division is doomed. BTW: Nothing wrong with $3k lenses on a FF budget body (RP) or the mid-range R. Sony has plenty of that. However, you and I both know that $3k lenses aren't all that is offered or all that will be offered. Right now, there is only 1 $3k lens, the 28-70. RF lens prices run from $449 and up. You say the 1D grade mirrorless was needed 6 months ago. Canon thinks differently. However, you wouldn't buy one if it were available anyway, so what are you complaining about? It will be a real pity what happens to Sony when Canon releases the next two FF MILC bodies. Nowhere to go but down.

https://www.techradar.com/news/sony-a7-iii-losing-full-frame-camera-share-to-nikon-in-japanese-market-report

When will you be changing your nick again AvTvM, Mirage, fullstop, etc?
 
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bokehmon22

EOS RP
Oct 31, 2016
355
186
After 13 years I made my first non Canon purchase, the Panasonic S1. I am blown away by the quality of its straight out of the camera jpgs. Video quality is outstanding of course; it's what Panasonic is known for. And it always made me wonder how Panasonic managed to retain so much detail in their videos compared to the dull videos out my Canons. Now it's clear. It's not just video. Panasonic's image processing/image compression technology is on another level and outstanding video is a result of that.

I am not getting rid of my Canon gear though, at least not the 7d2. There will just be no more Canon purchases.
I didn't know there are other people like me who was a Canon user for a long time and purchase S1. I'm definitely very happy with my S1.

I got free battery and grip ($430), free 3 years extended battery, free vlog upgrade. Sold my grip and sold my 5D IV for the same price I got my S1 for. It's definitely cheaper than I thought transitioning FF mirrorless.

I can't believe how much value I get from buying Panasonic S1 camera vs my Canon 5D IV and EOS R. Better EVF, great IBIS (hand held 2 seconds!), dual card slot, better sensor, and much better 4K.

I hope after the Panasonic S1H, 2.8 trinity lenses release, VLOG upgrade, they can turn their attention to updating the AF FW and MC-21 with AF-C support.

One of the best value camera I've bought for a long time. I think if Canon were to deliver comparable features, it would be around $3500-4000.
 
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3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
3,080
399
I hope after the Panasonic S1H, 2.8 trinity lenses release, VLOG upgrade, they can turn their attention to updating the AF FW
What are you looking for in a brand new camera in terms of AF firmware? Panasonic already has arguably the best CDAF. Can it be improved? Of course. Will it overall outperform PDAF (from canon, nikon, sony, etc) which their camera hardware isn’t set up for? ... probably not.
 
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3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
3,080
399
Let’s put 3k lenses on amateur bodies that makes a lot of sense ! Marvelous !
If one were to datamine all photography gear discussions and affinitize sentiments, I bet in the top three would be “spend the biggest portion of your budget on glass, not bodies.”

While personally I’d put lighting equipment ahead of both glass and bodies, I wonder: has that sentiment changed with the current generation of mirrorless ILCs?
 
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bokehmon22

EOS RP
Oct 31, 2016
355
186
What are you looking for in a brand new camera in terms of AF firmware? Panasonic already has arguably the best CDAF. Can it be improved? Of course. Will it overall outperform PDAF (from canon, nikon, sony, etc) which their camera hardware isn’t set up for? ... probably not.
Just some UI adjustment for simplication

Instead of box with cross hair on the eyes, I prefer how Sony and Canon has it with small box around the eye.

Boxes around the face with joystick to quickly change to the next person left or right instead of multiple big boxes around the entire person.

C-AF for MC-21 adapter for EF-L adapter.

Stick to eyeAF more.

Option to select left and right eye.

I don't expect it to be better than Canon for video but for stills, I think it's better than my Canon 5DIV for my style of shoot. EyeAF, more sensitive - 6EV, and no micro adjustment.
 
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BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,111
356
Once the world transitioned to digital, imaging was accessible to a much larger cohort. In addition, the demands of digital R&D meant that greater volumes of product needed to be moved to get the costs to a manageable level. The two curves met at what seemed to be very high prices initially but well heeled amateurs and news organizations paid for the early gear. As costs declined, more enthusiasts got into the game and news orgs were going broke. This has left the industry dependent on hobbyists and semi-pros that churn gear.
The latest drops in sales by the camera manufacturers represent the saturation of the market. The gear sold in the last few years have reached sufficiency and many owners of new gear are realizing their last purchases did not transport them to the promised land and feel (rightfully) that the newest intros will unlikely do it either.
Some of us have been lucky enough to find that our last purchase was a pretty good camera, and that we won't need to buy another one for quite a while, if ever. Not being obsessed with spray and pray techniques for getting better pictures of flying birds or fast moving athletes in low light may help.
 

Normalnorm

EOS 7D MK II
Dec 25, 2012
516
127
Sony is killing all sales in mirrorless sector, and its crazy to me how canon is shooting themselves in the foot with bad products. Eos R is a sales disaster because of it’s limitations, but it doesnt seem to occur to anyone at canon that they need to stop doing what they are doing currently and change. Nope, let’s continue with products no one wants, we’ll be fine ! A mirrorless 1d was needed 6 month ago for a low price to make everyone believe the company can still actually deliver something. But apparently not. Let’s put 3k lenses on amateur bodies that makes a lot of sense ! Marvelous !
The bulk of the market is exactly where Canon is aiming with the R and RP. Carping about the absence of an Uber -pro body is a hobbyist's luxury. Look where the numbers are and you will see that Canon is actually a lot more aware of the market than many give them credit for.
I do not really believe that Canon is doomed despite those Sony fans who repeat that prayer.