A new Canon DSLR seems to be getting teased on social media by a Canon ambassador

HarryFilm

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 6, 2016
457
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It's not going to happen just because of how physics of light works. Larger sensor = more room needed between the sensor and the lens = thick smartphone = fail.



Low-end compact cameras - maybe. They're dying anyway. But smartphone quality will always be incomparable with APS-C or FF sensors, small sensor means less information and no computation can restore information that's just not there.



The last sunset landscape has awful technical quality even at the given small size, but if it's really a Samsung from 2012, it's fine. But at the same time it's not an threat-to-Canon illustration either. The first one with the flames looks nice, but the flames are blown out, it would look much nicer had there been more DR in the sensor.
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I think MANY people can live with the minimum 12 mm thick body of a smartphone that has a 2/3rd inch sensor!
The "lens barrel" can extend outwards using a peizo-electric motor drive AND Sony could put in an EXTRA-BIG battery(s) to help with multi-day use. I know MANY in the commercial side of of things who wanted something like the Red Hydrogen smartphone BUT MUCH BEEFIER in the imaging department! AND they are WILLING to pay the $1100 US to $1400 US to make it happen with a 2/3rds inch sensor!

For an APS-C sensor, it will need to be 22mm or thicker or have a very complex multi-ring extending lens-barrel motor drive. With aspherical micro-lenses, the normal 45 mm focal plane of an APS-C sensor can be brought down to AROUND 22mm. When you buy a rugged phone such as the Sonim or Conquest and others, they are at least 22mm or even thicker! That's not too bad for the pros or higher-end consumers who need a backup to their MILC!

And since Sony INVENTED HyperHAD (1987) with the microlenses put overtop of individual sensor photosites, they can EASILY using very high refractive index glass (or even ultra-refractive acrylic!) to make the lens focal plane even shallower!

I actually don't mind larger phones since I've had large rugged phones that are BIG for quite some time, so I'm used to their size! I think MANY others would also be open to a BIG smartphone if the screen resolution, image sensor and battery life were WORLD CLASS !!!

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P.S. the last sunset photo was from a Samsung Omnia-series which was a 2012 era Blackberry-like keypad phone with a 3.15 megapixel camera but for some reason the original is only at 1600 by 1200 pixels. That was done to save space since FEW people had the high rez monitors for displaying 3.15 megapixel photos.

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Now in terms of dynamic range, there are only TWO possible fixes! Either use MUCH LARGER photosites or change the chemistry of the light-sensitive dopants used within the CMOS substrate. Right now, a typical 2/3rds inch sensor is ABOUT 8.8 mm by 6.6 mm so that means an 8192 by 6144 pixel resolution (50.3 megapixel) sensor of that size would have a photosite size of around 0.97 Microns which HAS been done on other sensors from Sony. The dynamic range would be on par with a Canon Powershot camera which isn't that bad!

If Sony wanted to REALLY SPEND THE MONEY and use High Sensitivity Dielectric Films in the photosites THEN they could EASILY MATCH or exceed Canon 1DxMk2 camera in terms of actual sensitivity and MATCH or exceed Nikon's lowest noise cameras (which I personally think is the D850 rather than the D5!), using only a 2/3rds inch sensor.

See paper:

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Based upon my usual rumour mill sources, I now KNOW that large sensor smartphones ARE COMING and that a 2/3rds inch sensor in a THICK ruggedized smartphone body with a BIG BATTERY is what's coming out first! And THAT manufacturer IS SONY !!!!!!!!!! And it will be an 8192 by 6144 pixel (50.3 megapixels) Bayer-format CMOS sensor! Estimated price will be between $1200 US to as much as $1500 US !!!


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Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
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Isn't the bottom camera a Fuji?


I blew up the photo by 4x and the Top one is ABSOLUTELY a Canon and the Bottom Camera SEEMS to say Fujifilm but the angle is REALLY high for me to be absolutely sure!

Did he goto Fuji?
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There was reference in an earlier post about a lens 80-150 and people thought this should have been 40-150 f2.8 (Olympus). Fuji make a 50-140 which, for their APS-C give 80mm at the short end.
In the post you quoted reference to, IF that is the camera he is trying out there is no Olympus equivalent to give 840mm.But the Fuji 100-400 with 1.4tc on APS-C would be in that ballpark. And it shoots 30fps black-out free.

So maybe you are talking sense at last.
 
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Aug 30, 2015
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It's Olympus (probably OM-D E-M1X ) with 300mm f4 + 1.4 teleconverter. This is larger photo from his tweeter.

 

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
540
410
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
===

I think MANY people can live with the minimum 12 mm thick body of a smartphone that has a 2/3rd inch sensor!
The "lens barrel" can extend outwards using a peizo-electric motor drive AND Sony could put in an EXTRA-BIG battery(s) to help with multi-day use. I know MANY in the commercial side of of things who wanted something like the Red Hydrogen smartphone BUT MUCH BEEFIER in the imaging department! AND they are WILLING to pay the $1100 US to $1400 US to make it happen with a 2/3rds inch sensor!
Once there was Panasonic Lumix DMC-CM1. Google it. It wasn't a huge success, to say the least, and nobody's ever tried to repeat it. Maybe the reason was that people buy a smartphone as a communication and media device with camera, not as a camera with phone.
 

HarryFilm

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 6, 2016
457
49
It's Olympus (probably OM-D E-M1X ) with 300mm f4 + 1.4 teleconverter. This is larger photo from his tweeter.

YUP an Olympus OMD xxxxxx-something... and 30 fps burst rate IS UTTERLY AWESOME !!! That is FAAANTASTIC for Sports, Action and Wildlife say with an adapted Sigma Sports 150 to 600 mm zoom lens!



see blown up photo below:
 

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raptor3x

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 26, 2012
556
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State College, PA
whumber.com
YUP an Olympus OMD xxxxxx-something... and 30 fps burst rate IS UTTERLY AWESOME !!! That is FAAANTASTIC for Sports, Action and Wildlife say with an adapted Sigma Sports 150 to 600 mm zoom lens!



see blown up photo below:
No question that's an E-M1X. The 30fps is with AF/AE locked though. If you want C-AF and AE you're limited to 18fps which is still plenty, plus you can continuously loop up to 35 shots in the buffer without actually writing anything to the card until you fully hit the shutter button. Really neat feature when you've got to react to stuff faster than your own reaction time.
 

HarryFilm

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 6, 2016
457
49
No question that's an E-M1X. The 30fps is with AF/AE locked though. If you want C-AF and AE you're limited to 18fps which is still plenty, plus you can continuously loop up to 35 shots in the buffer without actually writing anything to the card until you fully hit the shutter button. Really neat feature when you've got to react to stuff faster than your own reaction time.
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Interestingly, I could have used that 30 fps in a local soccer (football) game a few days ago - LOTS of fast goalkeeper action in that high scoring 5:4 game ! You can use a high-end video camera to capture fast action as a 60 fps 4k by 2k frame grab which I have done previously in such situations but those cameras were not available for me this week, so I had to use an older 1Dx Mk One this time.

I really think Olympus is going ALL-OUT and by adding some BIOS software upgrade to lock the camera to 30 fps, they will "capture" quite a bit of the local community sports and prosumer photographer dollars. In the USA and Europe, that is probably 30,000 cameras right there in probably 6-to-9 months (or about 90 million US dollars which isn't too shabby of a sales grab!). Add in another 20,000 cameras (or $60 million US) for AU/NZ, South America, Middle East, Asia, etc and Olympus just added quite a bit of cash to its bottom line!

The ONLY thing really that is missing is an Olympus-originated 150 to 600 mm Super-Zoom lens that is CHEAPER than Sigma's AND If possible a FASTER 12mm to 200mm. THAT WOULD JUST KILL IT! How about changing your M.Zuiko 12-200mm f/3.5-6.3 zoom lens to FASTER "glass" by using thin film-coated ultra-high refractive index ACRYLIC plastic lens elements to make THAT happen at a price of say .... $899 US and a speedier f/2.8-f4 ???
From a technical point of view, that f/4 final CAN be done with Acyrlic lens which ARE more transparent than many of the best silica-based glasses!

Can you do it Olympus? a 150 to 600 mm Super Zoom and a FAAAST 12mm to 200mm zoom -- Acrylic works VERY WELL !!! Just remember to coat it properly with thin film clear ceramic/alumina for scratch resistance!

.
 

HarryFilm

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 6, 2016
457
49
Once there was Panasonic Lumix DMC-CM1. Google it. It wasn't a huge success, to say the least, and nobody's ever tried to repeat it. Maybe the reason was that people buy a smartphone as a communication and media device with camera, not as a camera with phone.

Unfortunately, it was a device WAY AHEAD of it's time! Nowadays though, that newest Qualcomm Snapdragon 855 WILL make all the difference in that FLAGSHIP Smartphone CPU horsepower can now be mated to MUCH BIGGER sensors! Computational photography software coupled to a sensor that is BIG and BRIGHT will give all lower end MILC cameras a big run for their money.

And right now, the broadcast electronics rumour mill has it that just such beasts are coming from Sony and their first foray will be in the 50.3 megapixel 2/3rds inch sensor (8192 x 6144 pixels) super-smartphone market AND a 50.3 megapixel medium format sensor (56x42mm) in a multi-aspect-ratio, combined stills/video system similar in physical body configuration to a Canon XC-15 but larger and with interchangeable lenses!
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An announcement is rumoured to made as soon as this September/October 2019, but we'll see about that!
I would be more inclined to see such beasts at a CES-2020 announcement in January 2020 instead!
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raptor3x

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 26, 2012
556
48
State College, PA
whumber.com
Interestingly, I could have used that 30 fps in a local soccer (football) game a few days ago - LOTS of fast goalkeeper action in that high scoring 5:4 game ! You can use a high-end video camera to capture fast action as a 60 fps 4k by 2k frame grab which I have done previously in such situations but those cameras were not available for me this week, so I had to use an older 1Dx Mk One this time.

I really think Olympus is going ALL-OUT and by adding some BIOS software upgrade to lock the camera to 30 fps, they will "capture" quite a bit of the local community sports and prosumer photographer dollars. In the USA and Europe, that is probably 30,000 cameras right there in probably 6-to-9 months (or about 90 million US dollars which isn't too shabby of a sales grab!). Add in another 20,000 cameras (or $60 million US) for AU/NZ, South America, Middle East, Asia, etc and Olympus just added quite a bit of cash to its bottom line!
It actually shoots RAW up to 60fps although the buffer is only enough for about a second of footage.
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,797
3,273
===

Interestingly, I could have used that 30 fps in a local soccer (football) game a few days ago - LOTS of fast goalkeeper action in that high scoring 5:4 game ! You can use a high-end video camera to capture fast action as a 60 fps 4k by 2k frame grab which I have done previously in such situations but those cameras were not available for me this week, so I had to use an older 1Dx Mk One this time.

I really think Olympus is going ALL-OUT and by adding some BIOS software upgrade to lock the camera to 30 fps, they will "capture" quite a bit of the local community sports and prosumer photographer dollars. In the USA and Europe, that is probably 30,000 cameras right there in probably 6-to-9 months (or about 90 million US dollars which isn't too shabby of a sales grab!). Add in another 20,000 cameras (or $60 million US) for AU/NZ, South America, Middle East, Asia, etc and Olympus just added quite a bit of cash to its bottom line!

The ONLY thing really that is missing is an Olympus-originated 150 to 600 mm Super-Zoom lens that is CHEAPER than Sigma's AND If possible a FASTER 12mm to 200mm. THAT WOULD JUST KILL IT! How about changing your M.Zuiko 12-200mm f/3.5-6.3 zoom lens to FASTER "glass" by using thin film-coated ultra-high refractive index ACRYLIC plastic lens elements to make THAT happen at a price of say .... $899 US and a speedier f/2.8-f4 ???
From a technical point of view, that f/4 final CAN be done with Acyrlic lens which ARE more transparent than many of the best silica-based glasses!

Can you do it Olympus? a 150 to 600 mm Super Zoom and a FAAAST 12mm to 200mm zoom -- Acrylic works VERY WELL !!! Just remember to coat it properly with thin film clear ceramic/alumina for scratch resistance!

.
Olympus announced at the end of last year and have displayed this year a 150-400mm f/4.5 with a built in 1.4xTC.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,155
1,090
Alberta, Canada
Olympus announced at the end of last year and have displayed this year a 150-400mm f/4.5 with a built in 1.4xTC.
If you're shooting for photo level sharpness you're dreaming if you think 4K60 is the answer where there is action. Without blazing fast AF that can react to a completely new scenario within 1/60 sec there is disappointment. For example, I shot a Quetzal approaching and leaving a nest. Leaving you may have a second to accurately prefocus but you have no idea about the trajectory the bird will take and the whole affair is over in about 1/4 of a second. Approaching, you can only guess where to pre-focus. To compound the problem you need a rather high shutter speed to prevent blur (remember typically you'll have a pretty long lens where even 1/2000 is low) and if lighting is poor that pushes the ISO way up.

Now, if you're happy with mediocre video footage played back at not too slow a speed such that you can't really inspect each frame, it'll pass. However, first rate frame captures ... it'll be down to luck.

Of course, I can only speak for the 1DX2 which isn't in the same league as these newer amazing cameras being discussed.

Jack
 
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AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
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If you're shooting for photo level sharpness you're dreaming if you think 4K60 is the answer where there is action. Without blazing fast AF that can react to a completely new scenario within 1/60 sec there is disappointment. For example, I shot a Quetzal approaching and leaving a nest. Leaving you may have a second to accurately prefocus but you have no idea about the trajectory the bird will take and the whole affair is over in about 1/4 of a second. Approaching, you can only guess where to pre-focus. To compound the problem you need a rather high shutter speed to prevent blur (remember typically you'll have a pretty long lens where even 1/2000 is low) and if lighting is poor that pushes the ISO way up.

Now, if you're happy with mediocre video footage played back at not too slow a speed such that you can't really inspect each frame, it'll pass. However, first rate frame captures ... it'll be down to luck.

Of course, I can only speak for the 1DX2 which isn't in the same league as these newer amazing cameras being discussed.

Jack
What has 4K60 got to do with me, even in my dreams or nightmares?
 

Tugela

EOS 6D MK II
Feb 12, 2014
855
13
It appears that he’s no longer listing himself as a Canon ambassador so he’s moving on to the next company to pay him to shoot. LOL

The cryptic nature of his posts really had me going and I looked at all the details, but I didn’t read all the comments. He appears to be testing some new Olympus lenses that haven’t been released either...or he’s adapting Canon glass. With a speed booster it could be a little monster for sure.
Why would he talk about lack of RF lenses then? It must be a Canon camera. There is no reason to even mention the lack of long RF lenses if he was using some other system.
 
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HarryFilm

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 6, 2016
457
49
If you're shooting for photo level sharpness you're dreaming if you think 4K60 is the answer where there is action. Without blazing fast AF that can react to a completely new scenario within 1/60 sec there is disappointment. For example, I shot a Quetzal approaching and leaving a nest. Leaving you may have a second to accurately prefocus but you have no idea about the trajectory the bird will take and the whole affair is over in about 1/4 of a second. Approaching, you can only guess where to pre-focus. To compound the problem you need a rather high shutter speed to prevent blur (remember typically you'll have a pretty long lens where even 1/2000 is low) and if lighting is poor that pushes the ISO way up.

Now, if you're happy with mediocre video footage played back at not too slow a speed such that you can't really inspect each frame, it'll pass. However, first rate frame captures ... it'll be down to luck.

Of course, I can only speak for the 1DX2 which isn't in the same league as these newer amazing cameras being discussed.

Jack

Video cannot YET achieve still photo sharpness simply because of the way the DSP (Digital Signal Procesor) changes pixel formatting RGB to YCbCr (which introduces an automatic 15% reduction in colour palette) AND the typical INTERFRAME codec causes a reduction in temporal information which means frames are slightly blurry!

When using VIDEO cameras for sports/action still photography, I have been able to compensate by using DCI 4K cameras (4096 x2160 pixel) and resampling the image to exactly half on each axis (i.e. now 2048 x 1080 pixel) which is quite nicely formatted for MANY website and PDF file distribution formats I get requested to make.

For that resampled image, I USUALLY use an UnSharp Mask filter which just enhances edges slightly and I typically re-saturate the frame grabs with a 5% to 15% increase to take into account the YCbCr colour palette reduction of video imagery.

For this consumer-level-application, the end-user doesn't actually care since they don't KNOW I'm capturing at 24 fps, 30 fps or even 60 fps depending upon the video camera I take out from our parent company's inventory. I usually do get good action shots in a "Spray and Pray" modality of operations since I set the video camera electronic shutter speed to TWICE the frame rate such as 1/48th for 24 fps, 1/60th for 30 fps and 1/120th for 60 fps.

For focus, I've got enough experience in many sports to actually be able to ANTICIPATE the action and will "Focus Ahead" of an anticipated "Play Area" to get my images tack-sharp! I treat it like a VIDEO shoot where you have to ANTICIPATE the action and FOCUS MANUALLY just before the director switches to your camera in a multi-camera sports shoot !!!

Using shutter speeds at 1/1000th or 1/2000th on video is actually counterproductive because of the sheer amount of light needed to get that sort of tack sharpness on high-action shots. I have found that image resampling and edge enhancement take care of motion blur for many of my selected frame grabs, and depending upon the editor, I have NOTICED they tend to select the images that HAVE motion blur because it seems to give the FEEL of more intense "Action" and gives a slight dreamy quality to the image! It gets published online and in newsprint at various aspect ratios (4:3 aspect 10 cm by 7.5 cm is typical in our stories), motion-blur and all and it's worked for years! The editors TEND to "Crop Hard" so my wide shots get whacked down to closeups during the image cropping/resampling phase of editorial.

I've done Hockey Games, US Football, Soccer, Baseball, Basketball, Rugby, F1/Stock Car, Skiing, Mountain Biking and other action/sports at pro levels, so me and all the people i know use MANUAL FOCUS and MANUAL IRIS (all our cameras typically have full iris/focus rings on high end Servo Zoom lenses) and this has worked for DECADES (i.e. since late 1980's!) for video production AND as news still photo-published video frame grabs! And now that I mostly do industrial/aerospace video and stills imagery at work, I don't have to worry about sports and cinema directors and editor personnel breathing down my neck for instant answers! I now do "Free and Paid Side Jobs" out of my own volition, only on my terms!

If I do use the Canon 1Dx Mk1/2's, YES you set shutter speed to high and in my case anticipate the action and then spray on burst-mode, letting the editor do the work when I get back! My hit rate is about 1-in-10 photos are any good so I am getting about 50 decent ones out of the typical 500 images I shoot in an average hockey or soccer game!

Typically, of those 50 decent stills, only 5 to 10 are GREAT and those are what the editor wants when I send my decent ones back! On a typical shoot I will send back only HALF of my 50 decent ones and FLAG the 5-to-10 I think are the best, after I have a second look at them on a larger screen. The editor isn't bogged down then since he/she has got other photogs doing various parts of the game!

So far, so good!
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HarryFilm

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 6, 2016
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==

Canon 5Dr/s cameras made it abundantly clear that 50 megapixels in an easy-to-use compact format WILL be enticing to portrait, wildlife and landscape photographers! What is MISSING is a full feature set AND the absolute light gathering capability of camera sensors on larger format system such as the MF Hasselblad/Phase One/Fuji cameras.

A second convergence is coming where the FIRST convergence was getting cameras from film into digital and then mirrorless digital. The SECOND convergence is Computational Photography where software is mated to high-power CPU processers (i.e. Qualcomm Snapdragon 855 or AMD Ryzen-7 2700u cpu's) that have LOTS of digital signal processing ability AND THEN those qualities are mated to superior and LARGER low-light/low-noise capable image sensors.

For smartphones, the LOGICAL CHOICE is 2/3rds inch sensors because THAT is the worldwide broadcast television standard for almost all sports, action and news imagery! Right now most B4-mount broadcast cameras are 4K resolution attached to cheap Canon DIGIC-like cpu processors which don't do all that much. It means that current sensor manufacturers (i.e. Sony!) can easily USE THEIR OLD STOCK of 4k and 8K 2/3rds inch sensors in such smartphone devices.

NOW with Snapdragon 855 cpus and the higher-end AMD Ryzen-7 combined CPU/GPU chips in the pipeline, those processors can take over ALL digital image processing tasks AND take care of Smartphone operating system tasks at the same time! This means we can make super-smartphones relatively CHEAP !!! And with modern HyperHAD-style microlenses over each photosite, the large image sensor means you only need about 12mm of phone thickness to make the sensor focal plane practical for a 2/3rds inch sensor!

The LOGICAL pixel resolution for such super-smartphone devices is 8192 by 6144 pixels (50.3 megapixels) resolution with a 0.97 micron photosite size to keep dynamic range and noise at a high-quality modern level! An ARM-based Snapdragon 855 NOW EASILY handles such 8k by 6k pixel resolution at a frame rate of AT LEAST 30 fps to 60 fps RAW or COMPRESSED at 10-to-16 bits per colour channel!

I and MANY OTHERS would EASILY trade our current devices for a thicker phone with a BIGGER, LONGER LASTING BATTERY and a LARGER 2/3rds inch image sensor even IF the price is between $1100 U.S. to $1500 U.S.!

Such a 50.3 megapixel device is SO POWERFUL, it literally is a supercomputer and image monster in your pocket! It would LIKELY KILL OFF ALL of Canon's and Nikons low end cameras and encroach upon the Canon 7D/6D/M5/M50 and even the Nikon D850!

And based upon my broadcast video electronics-design colleagues/friends who have their own rumour mill, it seems SONY is the one who will be bringing the Super-Smartphone to market FIRST, although I have heard that Canon is doing to INHOUSE TESTING of 50 megapixel systems maybe in the XC-15 form factor?

For the HIGHER END, I also believe SONY is the one to bring that MAGICAL COMBINED 50.3 megapixel Stills/Video Medium Format sensor monster ...BUT... it's price will LIKELY be in the $10,000+ U.S. range!
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Again, we shall see and YES you heard it here FIRST !!!
.
 

SecureGSM

2 x 5D IV
Feb 26, 2017
1,333
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to me, obviously, that was said in the context of Harry's post referring to a super modern 50MP Medium Format sensor... see the link. Medium format sensors are pushing 100Mp these day. 50MP would be on a smaller side.