Advice Wanted - Help me decide on new camera

Sep 5, 2018
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I've been considering a new camera. Currently I have an old (circa 2009) Canon T1i with 2 lenses a 70-300 L and a 24-105 L (v1). I'm very much an amateur and use my camera for a wide range of subjects: my children, landscapes, Formula 1 races, vacation pics, etc. I also have an old Canon HV20 camcorder that has started acting up lately and for me I really need something that does both stills and video well. It would be perfect if I have one camera that works well for both as I need that flexibility. The T1i video function is terrible.

Carrying my T1i with a battery grip and with the 70-300 L never bothers me much so I"m not necessarily concerned with weight or size. I also don't have much of a preference between FF or crop.

IF you were in my shoes, which direction would you go? Upgrade to an 80D, 7D II, M50 with lens adapter? Sell it all and switch to Sony, Nikon, Panasonic, Fuji? Wait and hope the 90D is released in the next 2-3 months (probably not likely though). I do think the 80D would be a better option for me than the 7D as I can see the benefits of the tilt/flip and touchscreen, especially with video.

Question for the folks here, which direction would you go were you me? My budget is around $1200-$1500 tops.
 

amorse

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 26, 2017
450
440
www.flickr.com
At that price point and for that need I'd probably look for a 77D which is pretty close to an 80D in capability (1 FPS slower burst, no weather sealing, smaller body, smaller battery, and a few other things) and throw in a fast prime lens for the same price. The F1 race and running children may benefit from the 1 extra FPS, but the 77D is a few hundred dollars less with 90% of the performance (including the same sensor and some newer features missing from the 80D), and adding a lens to the kit will give you some more creative options. That added lens will make a bigger difference than the 1FPS in my mind. Good luck!
 
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ken

Engineer, snapper of photos, player of banjos
Aug 8, 2016
81
65
Huntsville, AL
You have a couple of L lenses, so maybe you were, at some point in time, planning on going full-frame? But now it seems you don't care if you go to crop or full frame. :unsure:

Anyway, if I were you (based on the little bit you've said on needs) it sounds like you might benefit from selling those L lenses and buying less expensive EF-S (edit: oops) lenses, and going with the 80D. That seems like the most bang-for-buck given what you've said. But if you want to really make use of that L glass, maybe go with a 6D mark II. Either way I think you'd be in good shape. You're used to Canon menus and ergonomics, and it will only be an improvement moving to either of those. Changing systems can be... jarring.. filled with unexpected regrets... (My wife currently shoots Sony. )
 
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Durf

Picture Taker - Image Maker
If I were you I'd highly consider the 80D and keeping that 70-300mm L-Lens. That lens is one of the best and also one of the sharpest lens I've ever owned and I keep it on my 80D about 95% of the time and prefer it on the 80D rather than my FF 6D2.
you won't regret it and can't go wrong with an 80D IMO
The 80D is one of my most favorite cameras I've ever owned....
 
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applecider

EOS 7D MK II
May 20, 2012
486
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ken

Engineer, snapper of photos, player of banjos
Aug 8, 2016
81
65
Huntsville, AL
Have you checked out the canon refurb store?
https://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/cameras/refurbished-eos-interchangeable-lens-cameras
Might find some FF deals that could help you decide. I am a big believer in FF over crop, my prejudice. 6Dmii for 1400 one option.
I would keep L lenses contrary to Kens advice, even with crop you are shooting with their sweet spots-center.

Let us know what and why you decide.
Not wanting to argue, but if the OP is happy with a crop sensor, then I think FF might be overkill for them. FF is right for you and I because of our goals, but if the OP doesn't have the same goals as us, then crop may be fine for them. It's great for most people IMO. I hate to see anyone spend more money on a hobby than they really need to. If the OP goes the 6Dii route then yes... you'll want that L glass. But if they don't go FF and never intend to go FF, that L lens is a significant waste of money.

The only way L glass makes sense for someone with a crop body is if they plan to upgrade to a FF body one day. Some people love to hate Tony, but I agree with him on this subject because "math". See what he says starting around 2:50 into this video.

 
Sep 5, 2018
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All good points and I THINK I learned a little something watching the posted video although it doesn't seem all that clear to me...guess I better watch it again. I maybe do need to reconsider the 6D2, especially since it does slide in (just barely) within my budget, if I go refurbished which isn't really a concern for me. I was under the impression that the 6D2 was a bit disappointing for most, but then again that seems to be the case with anything Canon is cranking out these days, at least when reading all the forums. :rolleyes: Any major concerns with the narrow range of AF points being a lot more concentrated in the center of the frame? Anyone have experience using both the 80D and the 6D2? How do they compared shooting video?

To answer one of the questions above, yes I bought the L glass with the idea that at some point I would move to FF and yes I always was under the impression that using EF lenses on Crop cams had the advantage of using the sharper center of the frame on a crop. Doesn't sound like it's so cut-and-dry though. I do/did also enjoy the extra range a crop gives me over FF, but frankly these days that isn't as important to me and with the higher pixel count on these newer bodies, I would have the ability to do heavier crops in PP.
 
Aug 23, 2013
2,316
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Bahia Brazil
80D offers current technology with unbeatable price for the features offered.
77D would be a good option at the current price, but the battery has encoded chip and compels you to buy the original Canon.
M50 looks great if you prioritize video, and can live with a lens adapter.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,210
395
But if they don't go FF and never intend to go FF, that L lens is a significant waste of money.

The only way L glass makes sense for someone with a crop body is if they plan to upgrade to a FF body one day.
Sorry but that is rubbish. L lenses will improve image quality on APS-C as much as they increase image quality on FF, and they also offer constant aperture zooms (the sensors are pretty much equal regards technology). I am a great believer in 'glass first' and all of my upgrades have been on glass first before the camera - glass for image quality, body for functionality (fps, AF etc).

Many years ago when deciding on my first DSLR, I came across a website of a natural history photographer who was putting a 600mm f4L on a 350D. He later upgraded to a 1D but he had his priorities right, IMO. And when looking at upgrades I found that 70-300L lens on a 600D beat a 70-300 non-L on a 7D2 for both image quality and focus acquisition.

For the OP, I would say the 80D is plenty enough and look at glass with any money you have left over.
 
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Durf

Picture Taker - Image Maker
Sorry but that is rubbish. L lenses will improve image quality on APS-C as much as they increase image quality on FF, and they also offer constant aperture zooms (the sensors are pretty much equal regards technology). I am a great believer in 'glass first' and all of my upgrades have been on glass first before the camera - glass for image quality, body for functionality (fps, AF etc).

Many years ago when deciding on my first DSLR, I came across a website of a natural history photographer who was putting a 600mm f4L on a 350D. He later upgraded to a 1D but he had his priorities right, IMO. And when looking at upgrades I found that 70-300L lens on a 600D beat a 70-300 non-L on a 7D2 for both image quality and focus acquisition.

For the OP, I would say the 80D is plenty enough and look at glass with any money you have left over.
I agree, most of my EF L lenses work just as well or better on my 80D than my 6D2. Especially my 70-300L. My 16-35L is sharper on my 6D2 than my 80D but you can't really tell unless you pixel peep. My 100mm Macro is equally as sharp on the 80D as it is on my 6d2. I have several lenses and have tested them all and found this to be true that EF lense are just as good, sometimes better on a crop camera.

I have both the 70-300 L and non-L: Both these long lenses are sharper and focus/track better on my 80D than my 6D2. Especially at 300mm. (and my 70-300L is EXTREMELY sharp on my 6D2, but the 80D is sharper at 300mm than the 6D2)

I calibrate and micro adjust all my lenses too and this observation and opinion is based on experience and real hands on use and not from a chart in which Tony Northrup made his video from.
 
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FramerMCB

Canon 40D & 7D
Sep 9, 2014
377
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Well...I've used a 70-200mm f2.8L IS (gen 1) for years on, first my 40D, and currently on my 7D. It practically lives there. I also have an older 24-85mm f3.5-5.6 USM, and the 10-18mm f4.5-5.6 IS. And some legacy Olympus glass I occasionally use with a Fotodiox adapter. Calling the use of L-glass a waste on crop-sensor camera models is miss-stating things a bit. As the OP already well knows based on their own experience.

As to their question, my urging would be to look at these particular models (in no particular order): Canon EOS 77D, 6D Mk II, or an 80D. (Or even a 6D (original)) If they went with the 77D (on sale right now direct from Canon, or B&H, Adorama, etc. for $799 and drop the savings on a fast prime (or just save it), or something similar if getting the 80D also on sale for $999 (same places). I should add that the 6D Mk II is also still on sale at $1,599, again, same places.

DPP_0734.JPG
As an afterthought - I bought my 40D when they were first introduced an paid $1,299 (or $1,399) new.
 
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dak723

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
434
I also agree that using FF lenses on crop is perfectly fine. For all the years I used my Digital Rebel, I used an old Canon EF 28-70mm (non-L) lens on it that I bought used for less than $100. Far better than the kit lens at the time - and the lens benifited greatly by being on a crop camera. When I eventually bought a FF 6D, I sold the lens as it did not have that good corner sharpness and a lot of vignetting. So some FF lenses are average on an FF camera but great on a crop.

If you are used to a crop camera, and used to the range of your zooms, you may not like the adjustment that you need to make by going FF. Of course, eventually, you may like the change, but you need to consider it. If you like what your lenses do now in terms of their zoom range, then I would stick with a crop - either the 80D or the 77D.
 

beforeEos Camaras

love to take photos.
Sep 8, 2014
279
73
80D body with battery grip if you look at my tag line I evolved ti1 > 70d> 5d mk3 I still use my 70d was well as my 5d. 70d = wild life for me nature plus you will love the extra focus points speed. and if you want to explore wide angle the 10-18 is and the 10-22 usm waits for you. why wait for something that may be years away. the 80d is the here and now. oh the 5d I uses for portraits and landscapes.
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
3,742
1,308
Irving, Texas
I went from XSi, T5i, 70D, and finally 5D MarkIII. I got the EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II, and the EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II in preparation for full frame when I got the 70D. L lenses make sense on crop because you do gain I.Q. and a lot of speed when it comes to the zooms. Speed alone is worth it, in my opinion. The I.Q. improvement is also big. With f/2.8 I was able to photograph night football games at a far lower ISO and a much higher shutter speed. Same with other scenes. The Bokeh is also more pleasing to me.

Everyone has their reasons for getting what they get. For me, it was the right way to go.
 

ken

Engineer, snapper of photos, player of banjos
Aug 8, 2016
81
65
Huntsville, AL
(...snip) Calling the use of L-glass a waste on crop-sensor camera models is miss-stating things a bit. (/snip ...) .
I will agree to overstating things a bit. You can definitely still use the L glass and, as FramerMCB's image shows, take very good photos. But there is a real thing called "resolving power" for a lens. A crop sensor is only using the center of the projected image from a EF lens, and if the sensor has high resolution, you are likely exceeding the resolution of what the lens is providing. How much so depends on whether you're dealing with wide angle or telephoto. My "significant waste of money" statement was meant to point out that it's overkill from both an economic and physics point of view. You don't NEED to spend L-glass prices to take very good photos with an APS-C camera. I didn't mean to imply that it's impossible to take good photos with that configuration.

I still firmly believe, from economic standpoint, you should consider:
- Will you ever move to FF? If not, at least consider selling the EF glass and put that into more EF-S lenses.
- Do you plan to move to FF? Consider going straight to 6Dii. It's a really, really good camera.
- Either path: Rent or borrow before making a purchase. Get your hands on the available options. You'll make a better decision that than listening to people on forums. I suggest going to to a local photography club where people will let you test their gear. Search facebook for your town and "photography".

Either way, the step up from where you are now will make you very glad you did it either way. Best of luck!

P.S. Google "lens resolving power" if you want to learn more. If you are an engineer or scientifically minded, you might enjoy this particular writeup: https://luminous-landscape.com/do-sensors-out-resolve-lenses/
 
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Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,210
395
I will agree to overstating things a bit. You can definitely still use the L glass and, as FramerMCB's image shows, take very good photos. But there is a real thing called "resolving power" for a lens. A crop sensor is only using the center of the projected image from the lens, and if the sensor has high resolution, you are likely exceeding the resolution of what the lens is providing. How much so depends on whether you're dealing with wide angle or telephoto. My "significant waste of money" statement was meant to point out that it's overkill from both an economic and physics point of view. You don't NEED to spend L-glass prices to take very good photos with an APS-C camera. I didn't mean to imply that it's impossible to take good photos with that configuration.

I still firmly believe, from economic standpoint, you should consider:
- Will you ever move to FF? If not, at least consider selling the EF glass and put that into more EF-S lenses.
- Do you plan to move to FF? Consider going straight to 6Dii. It's a really, really good camera.
- Either path: Rent or borrow before making a purchase. Get your hands on the available options. You'll make a better decision that than listening to people on forums. I suggest going to to a local photography club where people will let you test their gear. Search facebook for your town and "photography".

Either way, the step up from where you are now will make you very glad you did it either way. Best of luck!

P.S. Google "lens resolving power" if you want to learn more. If you are an engineer or scientifically minded, you might enjoy this particular writeup: https://luminous-landscape.com/do-sensors-out-resolve-lenses/
I fully understand where you are coming from, but as I mentioned above, L lenses have three significant advantages over even the best non-L lenses: speed of autofocus, constant aperture on the zooms and quality of lens coatings. Lenses made for EF-S you are not using 'only the centre of the projected image' because the lens circle is designed for APS-C sensors so you would have to buy a non-L designed for FF cameras for that to be the case.

I will however agree with your general sentiment that the difference between L and non-L is diminishing in that lens design has improved enormously in the last 5-10 years and old adages die hard in this industry. And secondly the aberration correction available (especially in DPP) has narrowed the difference even more. And I agree you can take excellent pictures with the APS-C lenses - I have long believed that if you stop down to f8 it can be virtually impossible to tell the difference between L and non-L. But you buy L lenses to solve specific problems (including GAS :) ) and that is where careful assessment comes in.
 
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Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,421
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I'd suggest getting something inexpensive like a SL2, which will be a big upgrade, and will let you put the extra money aside to see where the mirrorless cameras are going in a year or two. The SL2 in live view focuses quickly and accuratly, even Sigma lenses focus accurately in the live mode. The touch screen is great as well, and they can be had for around $500. I have a 5D MK IV and a SL2, and, so far, I use the SL2 much more than I originally expected, because its easier to carry with me on a trip. I do have EF-s lenses for it.
 
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Sep 5, 2018
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After much thought and consideration, I'm really leaning toward the 80D either new or refurbished and adding the Canon Portrait and Travel kit which provides me with 2 lenses: the EF 50mm 1.8 STM (Nifty Fifty), and the EF-S 10-18 IS STM. This would give me a 1.8 portrait lens and a good wide angle lens for landscapes, something I am most definitely missing today. I will gift my sons my old T1i with the 18-55 kit lens it came with (that's still floating around my house somewhere). Going refurb on the 80d and purchasing lens kit puts me at $1200 or if I go new on both I'm at $1349. Both options still below $1399 for a refurbished 6D Mk II without any lenses. Thoughts?
 
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Durf

Picture Taker - Image Maker
After much thought and consideration, I'm really leaning toward the 80D either new or refurbished and adding the Canon Portrait and Travel kit which provides me with 2 lenses: the EF 50mm 1.8 STM (Nifty Fifty), and the EF-S 10-18 IS STM. This would give me a 1.8 portrait lens and a good wide angle lens for landscapes, something I am most definitely missing today. I will gift my sons my old T1i with the 18-55 kit lens it came with (that's still floating around my house somewhere) or Going refurb on the 80d and purchasing lens kit puts me at $1200 or if I go new on both I'm at $1349. Both options still below $1399 for a refurbished 6D Mk II. Thoughts?
I've been shooting the 80D since it was released in 2016 and absolutely love it, I carry it with me almost every day. I also have both the 50 1.8 and the 10-18 and they are both actually quite sharp and VERY decent lenses.
You will not regret getting the 80D. It even feels more professional like than any Rebel, 77D, SL2, etc. (a little bigger and feels better in the hand). In my opinion it handles much better than any Rebel or like Rebel camera, it's a step up.

Also, the 70-300mm L-Lense works absolutely perfect on it as you mentioned you have that lens. My 70-300L is basically glued to my 80D !

I also have the 6D2 and love it but I do not use the 6D2 more than my 80D; They each have their place but in my opinion, the 80D might actually be more versatile than the 6D2, especially when it comes to longer lenses.....The 6D2 is a little better camera than the 80D but not by much.
 
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