Another mention of a 70+ megapixel EOS R camera

Mar 2, 2012
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How can you "back off exposure in each channel after quantization" when the analog amplification, which is the only way to increase the SNR in the shadows, must occur before quantization? Once you do ADC, the SNR is locked in. Any adjustments to signal are also made to noise.
I expect we were discussing the histogram you see before you take a photo.

My (also half baked) thought was: the camera could evaluate a raw data feed to establish max exposure, and back off by adjusting exposure time when you press the shutter release. In AE modes, the shutter release triggers metering. Same thing here. Whatever you’ve set, back off enough to not clip the brightest channel. If nothing has clipped, no change.
 
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Michael Clark

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I expect we were discussing the histogram you are before you take a photo.

My (also half baked) thought was: the camera could evaluate a raw data feed to establish max exposure, and back off by adjusting exposure time when you press the shutter release.

Again, that would take TONS more processing of each frame displayed on the rear LCD screen/EVF at 15-30 fps.
 
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koenkooi

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Fair enough, but you can equally well make a historgram and highlight/lowlight warnings based on the RAW, couldn't you?

Just because the CPU doesn't show the user that data on a graph doesn't mean the CPU doesn't have access to it, does it?

Correct, that's why Magic Lantern has a RAW histogram option: https://wiki.magiclantern.fm/camera_help#histogram

I've also read post from people saying a very flat picture style will also get you closer to actual RAW. But as pointed out earlier in this thread, it screws up the picture in EVF.
 
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Correct, that's why Magic Lantern has a RAW histogram option: https://wiki.magiclantern.fm/camera_help#histogram

I've also read post from people saying a very flat picture style will also get you closer to actual RAW. But as pointed out earlier in this thread, it screws up the picture in EVF.
As I stated, Canon could implement such a feature, but I doubt they ever will. The number of users who would want that is likely insignificant.
 
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If I were making an AE system for a mirrorless, the sensor can see the image... so you can actually see how bright the brightest stuff is, and how dark the darkest stuff is. If you're getting 0's and max values, then by default try to equalize the number of pixels falling off each end.
I don't think that such an equalization corresponds to any meaningful property of the resulting photograph, even if all that you shoot is calibration charts.
 
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Fair enough, but if scene DR < sensor DR capability, why not automatically ETTR to the extent allowed by keeping the shutter speed hand-holdable (if indeed the camera senses it's hand-held, and it uses reciprocal rule, corrected for IS, and potentially also adjusted by a user preference setting to go longer or shorter than recip would advise)?
If scene DR < sensor DR capability, why not automatically ETTL to freeze the action?

The good thing is that once you get a camera that supports CCAPI, you will be able to write those 20 lines of code (although it will cost you the battery life).
 
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Ozarker

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Still, it's a bit assinine to flippantly suggest I program the camera when not even Magic Lantern has yet gotten code running on an R. Are you saying the inability to actually implement a solution means there's no point in idly musing how exposure should work? If you don't give a crap what your shadow noise is like, fair enough, but then what are you even doing in the conversation?

No, it is asinine for you to flippantly suggest that it would only take 20 lines of code that could be knocked out while waiting for a bus, when in fact, you actually have zero idea as to what it would take. Zero. While I do "give a crap" about shadow noise, I also know how to bracket and expose properly. If shadow noise is a problem with a photo I took, then I did something wrong.

Is shadow detail so low on your list that even when you can optimize it you prefer not to?
Absolutely not, but I'm not the one sitting around claiming 20 lines of code written at a bus stop is going to be the solution either. :rolleyes: Do us all a favor, write the 20 lines of code and tell us all how to install it. Otherwise, quit claiming knowledge and expertise insight that you don't really have. People aren't fooled as easily as you'd like them to be. You have absolutely no idea what it would take to do what you are pining for. You just want to act like you do.
 
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As I stated, Canon could implement such a feature, but I doubt they ever will. The number of users who would want that is likely insignificant.
I don't see that you ever said that, and if you did you wouldn't be correct.

Then you weren't reading. I even repeated it for you.

Who is ‘you’? I can’t. Canon could, if they choose to do so. I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one...RAW files have been around for a long time, histograms are still based on JPGs.

What are you arguing here? Of course Canon could provide a RAW histogram, as I mentioned several posts back. They could have implemented that feature at any time, as I also mentioned several posts back. But they haven’t...as I mentioned several posts back. Those are the facts. If your point is, Canon should give us a RAW histogram option, I’d certainly use one if they do. But I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for one, and I would not recommend that you do so, either (as...wait for it...I mentioned several posts back).

How is that not correct? Or did you just fixate on the 'the number of users who would want that is likely insignificant' bit? That's also correct. The vast majority of ILC users never shoot RAW images.


I know you know a lot about photography and I don't want to get bad blood over an argument over what's technically feasible. So pls don't take this personally, but just as a statement of fact. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but you seem to be convinced that the camera can only have one histogram in it and that is the one it shows the user if the user asks to see it and also the one used to render the live preview. Actually, though, software could totally show you a RAW histogram while showing you a JPG rendering in the EVF. It could do the reverse as well. Or it could show you a JPG histo, a JPG-range EVF image, and also be using a RAW histo to control exposure. Calculating two histograms from one image shouldn't take notably more time than calculating one. And once calculated there's no reason at all the camera would then have to show it to the user, or use it to simulate exposure in the EVF. A histogram of a 20-stop scene (assuming a sensor with that DR comes along) in 1/10 stop buckets would be less than 1k of memory.
One last time, and I do mean that. CANON COULD IMPLEMENT A RAW HISTOGRAM. Is that clear enough for you? Please, go back and read the capitalized words one more time. Or the blue text above. Heck, read them all. Then do it again. Then once more, for good measure. This is the second time you've argued that Canon can implement a RAW histogram after I already stated they could, if they wanted to. If they did, of course they would not eliminate the 'standard' (jpg-based) histogram, that's a rather silly strawman you've created there. Honestly, the fact is you seem sadly confused on this whole issue, you keep perseverating on arguing that something is possible when we both agree that it's possible. The fact of the matter is that Canon has not chosen to do so, nor have they chosen to implement hundreds of other features for which a handful of people on this forum have expressed a desire. Feel free to re-state your repetitive argument that Canon can add a RAW histogram in a pointless attempt to convince me of something that I've stated repeatedly is true...I'm out.

headbang.gif
 
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Don Haines

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No, it is asinine for you to flippantly suggest that it would only take 20 lines of code that could be knocked out while waiting for a bus, when in fact, you actually have zero idea as to what it would take. Zero. While I do "give a crap" about shadow noise, I also know how to bracket and expose properly. If shadow noise is a problem with a photo I took, then I did something wrong.


Absolutely not, but I'm not the one sitting around claiming 20 lines of code written at a bus stop is going to be the solution either. :rolleyes: Do us all a favor, write the 20 lines of code and tell us all how to install it. Otherwise, quit claiming knowledge and expertise insight that you don't really have. People aren't fooled as easily as you'd like them to be. You have absolutely no idea what it would take to do what you are pining for. You just want to act like you do.
I doubt that one could declare the variables in 20 lines of code......
 
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Joules

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I doubt that one could declare the variables in 20 lines of code......
As far as I remember, magic lantern uses mostly C or C++ for its code. Guessing Canon would do the same. You can write a LOT of statements in 20 literal lines of code with a language where statements are separated by semicolons :ROFLMAO:
 
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AlanF

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Then you weren't reading. I even repeated it for you.





How is that not correct? Or did you just fixate on the 'the number of users who would want that is likely insignificant' bit? That's also correct. The vast majority of ILC users never shoot RAW images.



One last time, and I do mean that. CANON COULD IMPLEMENT A RAW HISTOGRAM. Is that clear enough for you? Please, go back and read the capitalized words one more time. Or the blue text above. Heck, read them all. Then do it again. Then once more, for good measure. This is the second time you've argued that Canon can implement a RAW histogram after I already stated they could, if they wanted to. If they did, of course they would not eliminate the 'standard' (jpg-based) histogram, that's a rather silly strawman you've created there. Honestly, the fact is you seem sadly confused on this whole issue, you keep perseverating on arguing that something is possible when we both agree that it's possible. The fact of the matter is that Canon has not chosen to do so, nor have they chosen to implement hundreds of other features for which a handful of people on this forum have expressed a desire. Feel free to re-state your repetitive argument that Canon can add a RAW histogram in a pointless attempt to convince me of something that I've stated repeatedly is true...I'm out.

headbang.gif
I feel like using that animated gif on occasion.
 
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Good question. I have two answers:

1) maybe because ETTR is preferable, to minimize shadow noise? In fact I'm not even saying shadow noise IS the priority, I meant the proposal as more of a question, and appreciate your answer that maybe it isn't.

2) maybe because as engineers, we don't know which a user will prefer at a given moment, so on the AE page we add some options: "smart ETTR" (my proposal), "ETTL" (your proposal), and maybe "ETTR" (make shadow noise a priority even if it pushes shutter speeds way past recip rule, or pushes apertures way lower than f/5.6).

Definitely, but I'm not sure it wouldn't be utterly negligable. My guess is that the amount of processing already going on is far, far, far more than collecting this one additional histogram.
One of the reasons why I am waiting for the effing G7X III is that with it I expect to be able to write code that will run on my phone, connect to my camera, put it into manual mode and control its aperture, shutter speed and ISO as I would want them to be controlled in my personally designed scene modes - and maybe even automatically choose scene modes based on deep neural network classification of the live view content, but that will surely require a lot of phone battery power. Maybe my phone will also be able to predict the exact moment to take the shot.

That would definitely bring posting cats on the internet to a totally new level.

Granted, I could already try doing it on EOS RP, but I'm not going to buy a $1.3k camera just for that. When its price drops below $1k or Canon makes a 70+ MP cat shooter controlled with CCAPI, I may consider buying them.

(I cannot yet say that I am totally serious, but this is definitely not just a joke)
 
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Ozarker

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I coded it up; see my reply to Don Haines. And you know what? I coded it up literally waiting for a bus, because I don't want to take my Ferrari out in the rain. It was more like 9 lines, including some constants that surely are already defined elsewhere.

I'm curious what makes you think I have zero idea about this stuff? I've been writing machine language on 8-bit CPUs (a tougher task than most embedded systems today) since the 70s for instance, and programmed Linux system-on-a-chip systems. I've written software for a digital synthesizer, a very similar type of embedded system to a digital camera. I've used Photoshop since 5.0, and wrote software to do such things as HDR and focus stacking before there were even words for these things. I've been a professional software engineer since 1991 and a pretty elite one if paycheck is anything to go by. But maybe it's not. Maybe you can make good money as a programmer having zero idea how to program, zero.
And yet, you still have not installed it to prove your work. So until then, the code is worthless and unproven. Harry may be able to give you a lift if his helicopter is out of the shop. That should save you a few nickels in bus fare until it stops raining and you can get the Ferrari out again. :rolleyes: What makes me think you know nothing about programming a Canon camera? I'll gladly acquiesce when you've got your code running and do a working demo.
 
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Just point out the error if you see one. ...but it turns out you're not, and are simply calling bullshit on things you don't understand.

But what the heck is your actual point?
His point is that even if your code is perfect, unless it’s installed and running on your camera, including full and debugged integration with the camera’s firmware, it’s useless. Not worth the time you wasted writing it.

Hey, maybe you could get your code incorporated into Magic Lantern? Then ML could have a RAW histogram. Oh, wait...ML already has a RAW histogram, as was pointed out earlier in this thread.

So other than repeatedly arguing points previously stipulated, writing code that cannot be tested or used, and asking for a feature from people who have zero power to implement it instead of asking those who do, what have you accomplished here?
 
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Michael Clark

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Nothing would need to be displayed.


Don't the vast majority of mirrorless cameras (maybe even all of them?) not do a full scan/processing of the sensor to display preview images and information, such as histograms, on the EVF? Don't they use line binning or other such shortcuts to reduce the processor load required to provide the EVF with those things? Wouldn't that mean in order to process the output from the entire sensor to do such precise metering it would require additional processing compared to what they are now doing?
 
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Michael Clark

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Don't the vast majority of mirrorless cameras (maybe even all of them?) not do a full scan/processing of the sensor to display preview images and information, such as histograms, on the EVF? Don't they use line binning or other such shortcuts to reduce the processor load required to provide the EVF with those things? Wouldn't that mean in order to process the output from the entire sensor to do such precise metering it would require additional processing compared to what they are now doing?
Perhaps, but doing it once ought not be significantly taxing. Maybe sensor read speeds would need improvement first, though.
 
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Don Haines

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Perhaps, but doing it once ought not be significantly taxing. Maybe sensor read speeds would need improvement first, though.
If you are going to display the image on the LCD screen, then you need to process the RAW files, and in order to get the colour information you have to read each pixel. Obviously, Canon has already written the software to do so
 
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