APS-C Canon EOS R body likely [CR2]

Jul 31, 2018
297
110
With your logic the 7D series was also not needed, a FF body size what a waste to put an apc sensor in it.
hehe, i am a former 7D owner myself. Liked it a lot ... before i went FF (5D3) plus EOS M. Now the 5D3 gets little use, M gets almost daily use. Solely due to size/weight.

i do agree with you that for certain use cases - "focal length limited + action + budget limited" - APS-C cameras are still useful.

but i think/guess (!) Canon will meet that demand with a "higher-end" EOS M model rather than putting an APS-C sensor into its EOS R series.

And i see zero chance for a new lineup of crop-only "RF-S" lenses, just when they are about to transition from EF + EF-S to RF + EF-M and consolidate 4 concurrent lens lines into 2.

upcoming EOS M5 successor could be as capable as Fuji XT3 (= better than 7D II and Nikon D500) and come in a fairly rugged, weathersealed body that is
* a bit larger than M5 (more grip, stronger LP-E6N battery - like EOS R)
* but still smaller than (current) EOS R model and
* priced substantially lower than EOS R - eg 1299-1499 (again, competitive with Fuji XT3).

i believe Canon will clearly distinguish its 2 MILC product lines by imaging circle:
1. EOS R = "FF all the way"
2. EOS M = APS-C sensors, covering spectrum from entry level "point and shoot style" (M100, powershot replacement) all the way up to and including "80D/7D class" segment

But ... i am only a "market observer" for many years, not a Canon insider. We shall see, which route they'll really take. :)

Personally I always prefer "functionality with as little bulk as possible" = cameras with "large sensor in as compact/portable a shell as feasible". worst case for me is "a dwarf-sized mFT sensor buried in a giant camera that could easily house an FF sensor ... (eg Pana GH5). :)

i am hoping/waiting for the opposite ... a mirrorfree FFsensor Canon EOS R model as capable, but smaller and lower price eg 1599 to 1799. Ideally (for me) almost as compact as a Sony A7 first gen ... but with serious LP-E6N class power pack ... and with pop-up EVF (as seen on some Sony cameras) instead of "permanent hump on top". Minimum pack size (mountaineering) and inconspicuousness (street, concerts) are important for me. :)
 
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Likes: Rocky
Feb 25, 2015
132
39
It might be technical superior top 80D although I a, not convinced it is all around the case. i both loved and hated the size of the M50 when i tried it in the store. Love to have one as a walk around camera or as BACKUP.. but i feel it would be tedious when i put a large lens on it for birding.. For that I would like a cheap apc EOS R sized body without having to shell out 1dx 2 amounts of money because you keep on insisting the FF chip has to download to get the 20-24 MP i would like for birding.
You may not like an apc body, fine don't buy one, but don't be as hard headed to state other people would not need one and should just buy the extreme expensive high resolution version only to use it in apc mode. With your logic the 7D series was also not needed, a FF body size what a waste to put an apc sensor in it.
I bought a SL1/100D as backup for my 7D, it's exactly as you say it is with large lenses. But it fits in a purse or diaper bag with ease. The SL1+60mm macro also can go into tighter spaces than the 7D/100mm combo.
Personally, I'm waiting for a 50MP+ R body, that would get me about the same number pixel in an APS-C frame as the 7D and extra width for all the EF lenses. That will also be like 3-4 times the price I paid for the 7D originally...
 

dave61

Englishman abroad
Jun 29, 2014
27
2
The Netherlands
Does there need to be? Perhaps it turns out that too few people follow upgrade paths for compatibility to be a big issue in Canon's view.
There doesn't need to be an upgrade path, but it is in Canon's interest to provide one.

I should add that there would be a path from M to R if Canon release an RF adapter for the M (like the EF to M adapter).
 
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dave61

Englishman abroad
Jun 29, 2014
27
2
The Netherlands
Only a few of the people who once bought Canon EF lenses for their crop cameras because "one day they might eventually switch to FF" (* have this strange notion of an "upgrade path".

(* i did that too. but i realized since that the "upgrade path" is not really one.
Of course using FF lens on a crop-sensor camera is an upgrade path. It is exactly what I did, and deliberately so, because it has enabled to spread the cost of getting to good glass on a FF camera over a long period.
 
Jul 31, 2018
297
110
There doesn't need to be an upgrade path, but it is in Canon's interest to provide one.
I should add that there would be a path from M to R if Canon release an RF adapter for the M (like the EF to M adapter).
[probably] physically/geometrically not possible, since there is only 2mm difference in flange focal distance [R = 20mm, M = 18mm] and in addition fairly large difference in throat width [R = 54, M=47mm].
 
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Likes: dave61
Jul 31, 2018
297
110
Of course using FF lens on a crop-sensor camera is an upgrade path. It is exactly what I did, and deliberately so, because it has enabled to spread the cost of getting to good glass on a FF camera over a long period.
this "upgrade path" has little real benefit. At the end of the day, FF needs FF lenses and you have to buy those. "Spreading out the cost" means you don't have FF lenses to shoot with until you buy them. And typically EF lenses purchased for use with crop DSLRs were tele (zooms) ... 70-300, 70-200, 100-400, etc. - since they were not offered as EF-S and/or would not be any smaller or less expensive for crop image circle. :)

First i bought some EF-S lenses.
Then some EF lenses.
Then I sold all EF-S lenses [except 60 Macro].
Then I bought some EF-M lenses.
Now I could sell my EF lenses.
And buy RF lenses ...
Rinse and Repeat.
:cry:

Similar to the transition in music industry. I would be paying the 4th time now for the same piece of music.
1. Vinyl LP -> 2. CD -> 3. download -> 4. Streaming [rent, subscription = even worse, so I refuse and stick with #2. CD + RIP ] ... welcome to the digital age. o_O
 
Likes: tron

BillB

EOS Rebel T7i
May 11, 2017
856
95
hehe, i am a former 7D owner myself. Liked it a lot ... before i went FF (5D3) plus EOS M. Now the 5D3 gets little use, M gets almost daily use. Solely due to size/weight.

i do agree with you that for certain use cases - "focal length limited + action + budget limited" - APS-C cameras are still useful.

but i think/guess (!) Canon will meet that demand with a "higher-end" EOS M model rather than putting an APS-C sensor into its EOS R series.

And i see zero chance for a new lineup of crop-only "RF-S" lenses, just when they are about to transition from EF + EF-S to RF + EF-M and consolidate 4 concurrent lens lines into 2.

upcoming EOS M5 successor could be as capable as Fuji XT3 (= better than 7D II and Nikon D500) and come in a fairly rugged, weathersealed body that is
* a bit larger than M5 (more grip, stronger LP-E6N battery - like EOS R)
* but still smaller than (current) EOS R model and
* priced substantially lower than EOS R - eg 1299-1499 (again, competitive with Fuji XT3).

i believe Canon will clearly distinguish its 2 MILC product lines by imaging circle:
1. EOS R = "FF all the way"
2. EOS M = APS-C sensors, covering spectrum from entry level "point and shoot style" (M100, powershot replacement) all the way up to and including "80D/7D class" segment

But ... i am only a "market observer" for many years, not a Canon insider. We shall see, which route they'll really take. :)

Personally I always prefer "functionality with as little bulk as possible" = cameras with "large sensor in as compact/portable a shell as feasible". worst case for me is "a dwarf-sized mFT sensor buried in a giant camera that could easily house an FF sensor ... (eg Pana GH5). :)

i am hoping/waiting for the opposite ... a mirrorfree FFsensor Canon EOS R model as capable, but smaller and lower price eg 1599 to 1799. Ideally (for me) almost as compact as a Sony A7 first gen ... but with serious LP-E6N class power pack ... and with pop-up EVF (as seen on some Sony cameras) instead of "permanent hump on top". Minimum pack size (mountaineering) and inconspicuousness (street, concerts) are important for me. :)
RF-S lenses seem unlikely to me also. However, it seems to me that the may be some people using RF lenses who want a camera that delivers higher pixel densities than are available from a reasonably priced FF R mount camera. Whether this market is big enough for Canon to go after, I do not know. (A lot of people thought the 7DII was strange at the time.)
 

tron

EOS 5DS R
Nov 8, 2011
3,792
159
I'd say a good bit but not considerable. Dual Digic 8's can add a lot of horsepower - even a Digic 8 and a Digic 7 could add a lot. I'd say the elephant in the room is the BSI processor. I don't know if BSI technology and dual-pixel autofocus are mutually exclusive - are they?
I am NOT an expert but Canon sensors improved alot with the 5D4 and it supports dual-pixel autofocus. Even if it is not the same technology that was used to make this sensor we care about this kind of improvement (results) and hoping for something even better and not actually how they can induce these.

EDIT: And Dual Digic 8 could be a solution for a decent performance increase (in fps).
 

dave61

Englishman abroad
Jun 29, 2014
27
2
The Netherlands
this "upgrade path" has little real benefit.
The benefit is that you spread out the cost.

Imagine you only have €500 free cash per year. At my local camera shop you can get a 1200D with EF-S 18-55 lens and an EF-S 55-250 for a total of €478. Next year you upgrade the short-zoom (EF 24-105, €349), the following year the mid-zoom (EF 70-300, €545), now wait two years and buy a 6D for €999.

This way you have a camera in year one. The alternative is waiting 4 years with no camera to buy the 6D with the two EF lenses.
 
Jul 31, 2018
297
110
In the above example - and in hindsight - it would be smarter to buy the 6D + 24-105 (non-L) in year 2. And save yourself all the Rebel and EF-S trouble.

Or buy an M50 with 15-45 at about 550. Then 22/2.0, 11-22, 18-150. And leave FF alone. A lot of money saved. :)
 
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Jul 30, 2018
9
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The signs are pointing to an EOS R replacement instead of a Mark II version. This should come into focus in the next month or two.
In that case will this APS-C model be more of a 7D MkIII MILC alternative? Or are your sources still hinting at a separate 7D MkIII in the current body format?

Thanks
 
Aug 26, 2015
308
65
In the above example - and in hindsight - it would be smarter to buy the 6D + 24-105 (non-L) in year 2. And save yourself all the Rebel and EF-S trouble.

Or buy an M50 with 15-45 at about 550. Then 22/2.0, 11-22, 18-150. And leave FF alone. A lot of money saved. :)
That sounded attractive to me as well after I've checked the prices, but thinking about it, it is very specific who can be happy with a setup like this. f/2 on a crop sensor is not that fast (yes, there is now the 32/1.4 but it is not cheap) and the zooms are just slow.
I would rather still buy the bigger 10-18mm because it is a little wider than the 11-22mm and it can be utilised on more cameras.
 
Jul 31, 2018
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110
In that case will this APS-C model be more of a 7D MkIII MILC alternative? Or are your sources still hinting at a separate 7D MkIII in the current body format?
if i recall correctly, CR guy said:
* 5Ds/R successor might come as mirrorfree hi-rez sensor EOS R model, rather than as Mk. II DSLR
* he has not received any (halfway credible) information regarding possible 7D II successor / "7D III"

There is only this unspecific rumor "potential APS-C sensored EOS R model likely". But it would not really make a lot of sense ... and also contradict statements by Canon managers in published interviews .. despite CR2 rating ... "unlikely to materialize" in my opinion. :)
 
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jolyonralph

Kodak Brownie
Aug 25, 2015
992
185
49
London, UK
www.everyothershot.com
So. I think that Canon have pretty much killed off the DSLR. They've already said no new EF lenses in 2019, only RF lenses. We'll no doubt have one more iteration at least of the main families of DSLRs, although one has to wonder if Canon would launch a 7D Mark III in 2019 knowing it wouldn't have another 5-6 year market life. Same with a 5D Mark V. I think if they are going to come out, they'd have to come out very soon (it's possible based on information from the certification tests).

The EOS R is good, and feedback has been strongly positive and sales good apparently. I'm sure we'll see one more round of DSLRs but then that'll probably be it, except maybe for the 1D class which will carry on for a while.

Now, I said before that I think there will be RF-S lenses if they produce an APS-C RF body. Thinking about this more I think probably not.

Instead they will likely produce low-end full-frame zooms that are excellent optically over the APS-C area but with compromises in the extended area. Something like the 17-70 design they have already patented (but maybe a simpler version).

This would be a perfect kit lens for the APS-C RF camera, with the added bonus that it would work as a full-frame wide angle to standard zoom on full-frame bodies.

We know a lot of software development has gone into automatically fixing distortion and chromatic issues, so I think what will happen is that these native lenses could be simpler optically (ie cheaper) and rely on software to fix issues that would otherwise compromise image quality. Pros wouldn't want this, but then that's not the market for this kind of lens.

So lenses could be marketed as primarily for APS-C use, but would work fine on full-frame cameras, albeit with some issues.

This isn't the first time that Canon have done this. When they launched their EOS IX7 APS film camera they bundled it with a EF 22-55mm lens which was optimised for APS-C use but still gave a full frame image circle. It isn't a great lens for full frame, but it does work.
 
Jul 31, 2018
297
110
So lenses could be marketed as primarily for APS-C use, but would work fine on full-frame cameras, albeit with some issues.

This isn't the first time that Canon have done this. When they launched their EOS IX7 APS film camera they bundled it with a EF 22-55mm lens which was optimised for APS-C use but still gave a full frame image circle. It isn't a great lens for full frame, but it does work.
don't think they'll do this. And if, i hope they get as much burned for it as they did with the DOA APS-C film system back then. :)

Canon will launch "very good to excellent IQ" RF lenses - all fully capable to handle 50+ MP FF sensors. Anything for APS-C - cameras and lenses - will be delivered via EOS M / EF-M lineup.
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D Mark IV
Mar 2, 2012
2,655
165
In the above example - and in hindsight - it would be smarter to buy the 6D + 24-105 (non-L) in year 2. And save yourself all the Rebel and EF-S trouble.
To me, the wisdom of that depends on whether the buyer has a functional camera to use in year 1, and if not whether they’d prefer to forgo taking photos for that year in exchange for a net savings realized.

I don’t personally like being without a camera, which is (tangent alert) why I don’t play the “wait in case there is an upgrade around the bend” game and prefer the model of releasing technology when it’s ready (arguably what Sony does, or perhaps used to) rather than on a contrived business cycle.
 

Rocky

EOS Rebel T7i
Jul 30, 2010
873
11
Sound like a lot of the posters are proposing getting the APS-C R with the FF R lens or APS-C R lens and then upgrade to FF R. That sounds familiar in the EF and EF-S saga. How many EF-S lens and APS_C dslrs are sitting in the closet or dump yard now? Do we want the same saga to be repeated again?
 
Nov 1, 2018
16
13
London
Sound like a lot of the posters are proposing getting the APS-C R with the FF R lens or APS-C R lens and then upgrade to FF R. That sounds familiar in the EF and EF-S saga. How many EF-S lens and APS_C dslrs are sitting in the closet or dump yard now? Do we want the same saga to be repeated again?
Isn’t that what ebay is for?
 
Jul 31, 2018
297
110
except ebay does not work any longer for truly private sales. they are exclusively servicing f*cking hongkong "power sellers". you and i and uncle bob are only welcome as stupid buyers. not as sellers. got it?