Are There Any More DSLRs Coming in 2018?

Chaitanya

EOS 6D MK II
Jun 27, 2013
1,105
189
33
Pune
ahsanford said:
ashmadux said:
I would much rather have an 80d than the 7d2....that is one canon body i wouldn't want any part of. The tech was old even when it launched, and that was forever ago...no touch screen, no swivel on that great built body....what a waste. Yuck.
7D2 = far better build quality, better AF, joystick, better burst, larger buffer, and some here would say better high ISO files, dual cards, interchangeable focusing screens for manual glass, GPS

80D = better low ISO files, tilty-flippy + touch --> better for video, more f/8 AF points for T/C use, wifi

If you're hung up on base ISO performance, have a tilty-flippy or shoot video, you get the 80D. If you need a warhorse, will-not-die-on-you rig without having to move to FF and buy the longest superwhites, the 7D2 is the best choice.

I see those two cameras as being aimed at completely different people, so it makes sense to offer both. The fact that Canon isn't rushing out a 7D3 this year would imply the 7D2 is a consistent money maker for them.

- A
Sony and Fuji have shown even on small bodies its possible to put joystick and 8 way controller alongside each other. So I really dont understand Canon's decision to remove joystick from X0D. So far that 8way D-pad is the thing I hate on 80D on what otherwise is a good camera. In past dropping prices were a good indicator of new camera incoming but it doesnt seem to be the case anymore.
I still find 7D very attractive due to ruggedness but it's just too heavy for long himalayan treks and much rather have 80d as its lighter and serves well for what I do.


In general Canon used to the one with a lot of firsts with technology but now they have gone on crippling spree with their upgrades. Its quite frustrating to see that attitude from what once was a pioneer of DSLRs.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,972
502
ashmadux said:
No way to know that, this is the company that prefers to update their DSLR's 3-4 years apart. Could be their internal struggle of how to hobble it to satisfy market segmentation. Could be just par for course. Who knows.
The 7D line appears to be a 5 year animal, actually.

If you believe in Canon nerfing / deliberately leaving things out its products to protect higher-value item sales -- and I tend to with a shrug (that's business) -- the only 'hobbling' Canon might do on the 7D3:

  • Leave out 4K: pretty unthinkable in 2019 on a class-leading rig
  • Leave out on-chip ADC: anything's possible after the 6D2 ::) but my money's on it being in there. If the 5D4 and 1DX2 both got it, it's not like it will hurt high ISO performance. I say it's in.
  • Leave out a tilty-flippy: still possible. I think all cameras need a tilty-flippy, but Canon may be stubborn here.
  • Leave out core system tech that other systems have, like IBIS: that's not nerfing, that's an active strategy Canon has to avoid that sort of tech. I just don't see that as Canon holding something back nearly so much as not wanting to develop/implement it. Big difference.
  • Leave out a big bump to resolution: Possible, though this camp of shooter is much less resolution obsessed, so I'm not sure how you'd argue this is nerfing. Even the D500 with all it's onboard horsepower is sitting at just 20 MP.
  • Leave out a big bump to fps: Leave out is a strong term, as this isn't a binary have/have not situation. Canon will improve here. I doubt it would jump to 14-16 fps like the 1-series, but a step up to 12 fps seems possible, reasonable, etc.
  • Leave out touchscreen: zero chance.
  • Leave out a big expansion to the number of f/8 AF points (only has 5? today): zero chance.

- A
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,058
329
Vancouver, BC
ahsanford said:
Leave out a big bump to resolution: Possible, though this camp of shooter is much less resolution obsessed, so I'm not sure how you'd argue this is nerfing. Even the D500 with all it's onboard horsepower is sitting at just 20 MP.
Increasing megapixels also decreases high ISO performance, so I'd argue it's not necessarily a good thing. Since you'll often have to hit ISO 800+, I would prefer a camera that had the same quality of output as a full frame, at the same type of pixel densities as a full frame, or as high as they could push it without impacting mid/higher ISO performance -- but at an optical APSC crop.

The reality is, even with full sun, and even with a big expensive lens, you never get as good ISO as you'd want if you have to shoot at 1/2500 - 1/4000.

ahsanford said:
Leave out a big bump to fps: Leave out is a strong term--I doubt it would jump to 14-16 fps like the 1-series, but a step up to 12 fps seems possible, reasonable, etc.
Hola, you are optimistic my friend :D Certainly possible, and that would be pretty sweet. Becomes slightly more likely if the megapixels are kept down.

There is a question of which storage card option it uses, too, as the fps bumps up.


ahsanford said:
Leave out a big expansion to the number of f/8 AF points (only has 5? today): zero chance.
For sure AF is going to get better in every way. I think that's absolutely guaranteed and Canon will state more sophisticated autofocus (best in the world!) as a reason for upgrade. I think that in this respect, Canon will pull out all the stops because it's something they can do, and there's no more upgrade path beyond 7D for crop anyways.


Regarding tilty-flippy: I really hope they put in a fully articulating screen. I don't think canon will be so stubborn that they don't put in at least a flip-down screen a la Sony/Nikon.

The only model I can see Canon being really stubborn for articulating screen on is 1DX3 - the buyers for it probably care a little less about that, and value more ruggedness and as much weather sealing as possible. And, I guess, frankly, I don't care, because I won't ever buy a 1DX format camera.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,972
502
Talys said:
For sure AF is going to get better in every way.
Except for coverage of the frame. They really can't do much more there, can they?

That's one area SLRs really have no rebuttal to mirrorless, correct?

- A
 

slclick

EOS 3
Dec 17, 2013
3,112
635
Pause...



I'll always have glass G.A.S. but not body G.A.S. It's my version of inner peace. Carry on with your sensor, flange and features you could not live without discussion.
 

Chaitanya

EOS 6D MK II
Jun 27, 2013
1,105
189
33
Pune
You are forgetting about Buffer which seems to be one area where D500 certainly is better than 7D 2. Deep buffer is quite useful in helping getting BIF shots esp for larger raptors.
As for minor changes: USB type-C port for tethering(more durable than micro B connector), get rid of passive matrix display in favour of eink, and go for UHS-II SD and maybe CFX format(Cfast are still too expensive and 7D is flagship for crop bodies).

As for 4K video drop that overlybloated mJPEG format. I really like crop in 4k as it allows me to get more magnification without resorting to extension tubes in field.
 

unfocused

EOS 5D SR
Jul 20, 2010
4,929
1,238
66
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
The way I look at it is this: I am anxiously anticipating a 7DIII, but every month that goes by means that the final product will be that much better.

Better autofocus, better sensor. The longer we wait, the better they will be.

The other needed features are here and available already: touch screen, connectivity and f8 autofocus points.

I don't care about flip screens or 4K. 10fps is already sufficient, so boosting to 12 or 14 will just be a bonus.

In the meantime, the 7DII is still an excellent camera and much of the criticism of it is fed by internet trolling.
 

blackcoffee17

EOS RP
Sep 17, 2014
223
185
privatebydesign said:
AvTvM said:
yes, more mirrorslappers is exactly what the world needs and what the market wants! Big bucks market research of infallible Canon Corp clearly proves it!





https://petapixel.com/2018/03/14/death-dslrs-near/
That. Is. Hilarious.

Your 'evidence' for mirror slapper extinction is illustrating a near 25% decline in mirrorless sales ::)

Surely, given this world of alternative facts, you can find something better than that to illustrate the 'dominance' of your preferred form factor?
You certainly missed the point of that diagram. Yes, the mirrorless fell by 25% but then recovered back to 2012 levels. But the point is that in 2012 from every 5 cameras sold only one was mirrorless, in 2018 they are almost equal with the DSLR's.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,604
2,059
blackcoffee17 said:
But the point is that in 2012 from every 5 cameras sold only one was mirrorless, in 2018 they are almost equal with the DSLR's.
People who make $20/hour will be quite pleased to know that their pay is 'almost equal' to those making $40/hour. :eek:
 

blackcoffee17

EOS RP
Sep 17, 2014
223
185
neuroanatomist said:
blackcoffee17 said:
But the point is that in 2012 from every 5 cameras sold only one was mirrorless, in 2018 they are almost equal with the DSLR's.
People who make $20/hour will be quite pleased to know that their pay is 'almost equal' to those making $40/hour. :eek:
How does pay even compare to this? You just had to say something. We are talking about marketshare! And mirrorless grew from 20% to 50% almost.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,058
329
Vancouver, BC
ahsanford said:
Talys said:
For sure AF is going to get better in every way.
Except for coverage of the frame. They really can't do much more there, can they?

That's one area SLRs really have no rebuttal to mirrorless, correct?

- A
The D500 has better AF coverage, and I'd argue the 7DIII needs to be competitive with that, because this is something that people look for.

No, it's not quite as complete as mirrorless (or DPAF liveview), but at least for birds in flight, this is where reality and youtube videos or spec sheets collide.

I have been using the Sony A7R3 almost exclusively for birding for the last 2.5 weeks, and taken at least 4,000 photos on it. Using their best birding lens (GMaster 100-400 with and without 1.4x), and in perfect conditions (blue sky shots where there's enough light for 1/2500 ISO 100-200) the reality is that a lot of times, you get green, in-focus lock, but the resulting photo is a blurry mess, for BIF.

The spec sheet awesomeness is that you can autofocus on the top right corner... but in reality, this is something that is not really useful, because those shots are never any good anyways.

Spot AF on a 5D/6D/7D or expanding points on the Canon models that support it simply yields MUCH higher keeper rates, as long as you follow the subject, and keep it near the center of the lens. On the A7R3, it's the same thing, except that the keeper rate for me is still significantly lower -- not for lack of trying. And I'm talking about a wimberly gimbal and slow flying birds like heron, or big birds in predictable patterns like circling eagles.

It is related to another reality with all that AF coverage -- the full screen coverage is only really helpful in action photography if you are tracking AI subject identification or tracking of some sort (because when do you purposely point the corner of a camera at a soccer player?). But when I gave it a go, I found that too often the AI would just pick a subject that I did not intend, so I went back to some single point or expanding single point mode. It's not bad, but it's not telepathic, and it's preferable for me to tell the camera what I want in focus, than it is to have it tell me what it thinks should be in focus.

Where the mirrorless AF really excels is in focus-magnified stills, because you can get that focus point EXACTLY where you want it (provided your camera is stabilized enough not to move much). I mean, right in the middle of the pupil, if you want, or a bird that's obscured by all sorts of branches. It's generally very good at that, but the thing is, it's not like I was getting a whole lot of OOF stills shots on my 6DII.

The other issue of reality vs spec sheet is that the super smart AF modes that make the 100% coverage really cool is not something I always want to be in (it's quite inferior for stills, for example). So, what ends up happening is that I'm constantly switching between that and single or expanding point AF, and I actually miss shots because I'm fidgeting.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,058
329
Vancouver, BC
blackcoffee17 said:
neuroanatomist said:
blackcoffee17 said:
But the point is that in 2012 from every 5 cameras sold only one was mirrorless, in 2018 they are almost equal with the DSLR's.
People who make $20/hour will be quite pleased to know that their pay is 'almost equal' to those making $40/hour. :eek:
How does pay even compare to this? You just had to say something. We are talking about marketshare! And mirrorless grew from 20% to 50% almost.
Neuro is pointing out that it's not close to 'almost equal'. It's like if a woman and a man do the same job, the man gets paid twice as much, and you say they are paid almost the same thing.

Look at the CIPA numbers, man, and keep in mind that DSLRs did better than they should have in 2016 because of constrained MILC supply. DSLRs outsold Mirrorless 2:1 in ILCs.

 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,604
2,059
blackcoffee17 said:
neuroanatomist said:
blackcoffee17 said:
But the point is that in 2012 from every 5 cameras sold only one was mirrorless, in 2018 they are almost equal with the DSLR's.
People who make $20/hour will be quite pleased to know that their pay is 'almost equal' to those making $40/hour. :eek:
How does pay even compare to this? You just had to say something. We are talking about marketshare! And mirrorless grew from 20% to 50% almost.
Evidently the analogy was too complex for you, I'm sorry about that. You stated that mirrorless shipments are now 'almost equal' to dSLR shipments, but the latter are nearly double the former. That might be 'almost equal' in your mind, but to those of us who live in the real world (and have at least basic math skills), having twice as much of something, be it pay or number of cameras, is not equal.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,972
502
Talys said:
the full screen coverage is only really helpful in action photography if you are tracking AI subject identification or tracking of some sort (because when do you purposely point the corner of a camera at a soccer player?). But when I gave it a go, I found that too often the AI would just pick a subject that I did not intend, so I went back to some single point or expanding single point mode. It's not bad, but it's not telepathic, and it's preferable for me to tell the camera what I want in focus, than it is to have it tell me what it thinks should be in focus.
I trust you. I don't shoot action.

But as a non-action stills guy, I'd love more VF coverage on my 5D3 for non-traditional framing opportunities. I imagine a lot of us here would, actually. We wouldn't use it often, but I could see it being useful in some circumstances.

- A
 

TomDibble

I'm New Here
Jun 15, 2017
17
3
blackcoffee17 said:
neuroanatomist said:
blackcoffee17 said:
But the point is that in 2012 from every 5 cameras sold only one was mirrorless, in 2018 they are almost equal with the DSLR's.
People who make $20/hour will be quite pleased to know that their pay is 'almost equal' to those making $40/hour. :eek:
How does pay even compare to this? You just had to say something. We are talking about marketshare! And mirrorless grew from 20% to 50% almost.
No. Mirrorless marketshare went from 1/6th (20% of the DSLR market == 1/6th of total market) to 1/3rd (half of DSLR == 1/3rd of total). And it "grew" marketshare by the overall market shrinking / DSLR market shrinking.

In terms of units sold, mirrorless sold just over half as many units in 2017 as DSLRs. That is not nearly equal; it is half as many. Thus, the comment about $20 being "almost equal" to $40 is completely apt.

This isn't a huge win for mirrorless on display; it is a loss of market share by DSLR. But if you extend that trend, DSLR has another 4 years to go before it equals where mirrorless is today (50% decline in 4 years). So, DSLR makers should definitely be looking to bring in mirrorless offerings, but to claim it as a crisis is definitely a stretch.
How does pay even compare to this? You just had to say something. We are talking about marketshare! And mirrorless grew from 20% to 50% almost.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,058
329
Vancouver, BC
ahsanford said:
Talys said:
the full screen coverage is only really helpful in action photography if you are tracking AI subject identification or tracking of some sort (because when do you purposely point the corner of a camera at a soccer player?). But when I gave it a go, I found that too often the AI would just pick a subject that I did not intend, so I went back to some single point or expanding single point mode. It's not bad, but it's not telepathic, and it's preferable for me to tell the camera what I want in focus, than it is to have it tell me what it thinks should be in focus.
I trust you. I don't shoot action.

But as a non-action stills guy, I'd love more VF coverage on my 5D3 for non-traditional framing opportunities. I imagine a lot of us here would, actually. We wouldn't use it often, but I could see it being useful in some circumstances.

- A
Oh, on full frame, I agree, for sure. I wish my 6DII had more AF coverage, even if it is like you said, something we rarely need.

On crop, I think the D500 is as good as you'd ever want it, and I applaud Nikon for setting up the AF points the way they did -- at least on paper, as I've never actually used one :)
 

SkynetTX

EOS 80D
Jul 29, 2016
148
6
42
Budapest, Hungary
But the point is that in 2012 from every 5 cameras sold only one was mirrorless, in 2018 they are almost equal with the DSLR's.
...
And mirrorless grew from 20% to 50% almost.
Mirrorless did not grow anywhere. The loss of SLRs seems like a growth of mirrorless.

No way to know that, this is the company that prefers to update their DSLR's 3-4 years apart.
Except Rebels. This year we've already seen two of them and March has not passed yet. :) The only bad that they are not updated. So I'd like to see a new Rebel with Digic 6 processor and a better sensor with more (1+6+18) AF points. It still can have 18 MP though. I don't care about touch and tilt screen nor higher fps but better noise performance with higher ISO settings.

I recommend Canon to update their cameras as follows:
  • Entry level: Digic 6 processor, 25 AF points, new sensor with 18 to 21 MP but better noise performance
  • Mid level: Digic 7 or 7+ processor, DualPixel AF, 25 to 45 AF points, 18 to 36 MP, flip screen, touch screen, 10 to 16 fps
  • High end: Digic 8 processor, DualPixel AF, 45+ AF points, 36+ MP, 16+ fps
Of course, this is only my opinion. :)

And don't forget about my 9000D!! :D
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,972
502
AvTvM: "Yahtzee. Booyah. Mirrorslappers are the present! I'm dancing on the reflex mirror's grave!"

Most of this thread to AvTvM: "You are misrepresenting the data. Meet my good friends Mathematics, Analogy and Wit. They would like to combine into Voltron and poop on your argument."

So, to AvTvM: It remains far too soon for these proclamations of yours. Call us when mirrorless eclipses SLR unit sales. (Again: this will not happen until Canon and Nikon deem it is time for that to happen.)

But to the rest of those on this thread, keep in the mind the proportion of overall sales:

2012: 19.8% of all sales are mirrorless
2013: 19.3%
2014: 23.9%
2015: 25.4%
2016: 26.7%
2017: 34.8%

So eventually, AvTvM will be right. ::)

- A
 

ashmadux

Art Director, Visual Artist, Freelance Photography
Jul 28, 2011
427
19
New Yawk
photography.ashworld.com
SkynetTX said:
But the point is that in 2012 from every 5 cameras sold only one was mirrorless, in 2018 they are almost equal with the DSLR's.
...
And mirrorless grew from 20% to 50% almost.
Mirrorless did not grow anywhere. The loss of SLRs seems like a growth of mirrorless.

No way to know that, this is the company that prefers to update their DSLR's 3-4 years apart.
Except Rebels. This year we've already seen two of them and March has not passed yet. :) The only bad that they are not updated. So I'd like to see a new Rebel with Digic 6 processor and a better sensor with more (1+6+18) AF points. It still can have 18 MP though. I don't care about touch and tilt screen nor higher fps but better noise performance with higher ISO settings.

I recommend Canon to update their cameras as follows:
  • Entry level: Digic 6 processor, 25 AF points, new sensor with 18 to 21 MP but better noise performance
  • Mid level: Digic 7 or 7+ processor, DualPixel AF, 25 to 45 AF points, 18 to 36 MP, flip screen, touch screen, 10 to 16 fps
  • High end: Digic 8 processor, DualPixel AF, 45+ AF points, 36+ MP, 16+ fps
Of course, this is only my opinion. :)

And don't forget about my 9000D!! :D
"Real" Rebel models - t2i/3i/4i/5i/6i+s haven't been on a normal update schedule for years now since the t5i. It used to be yearly, every January or feb, then went to april, then later in the year, then....poof. Unfortunately for canon, the rebel series, like the 5d, are such mature lines, they are now busting at the seems to become different or something better.

The non- 'i' series is just entry-level throwaway junk, not a real rebel.

I bet you dollars to donuts canon is either:

  • Trying to find a way to keep features off the next real rebel so they can still sell the 77d/80d/90d/7d2/7d3.
  • Trying to make the rebel into the new standard mirrorless basic range body.