Are these horizontal lines normal from R cameras?

R1-7D

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 25, 2012
704
30
Canada
I noticed that I keep getting these strange horizontal lines across the highlight areas of my images.

Has anyone else experienced this with their R cameras? I'm wondering if it's a sensor issue, or if it's a normal phenomenon.


Granted, this is an 8x crop that I'm showing to illustrate the issue. However, my 1DX2 and 5DsR do not produce lines like this at any crop.

I still have a week to return the camera to the Store for a replacement, so I want to make sure everything is operating as it should.
 

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Joules

EOS RP
Jul 16, 2017
369
288
Hamburg, Germany
Could you share some details of the conditions these shots were made under? Like, lens used, JPEG or RAW, if so, which RAW converter and what editing steps? Are you using CRAW? Silent shutter maybe?

I've not seen something like this, it looks like some artifact and not normal. But I haven't handled any RF camera, so Iv/ just curious here.
 

R1-7D

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 25, 2012
704
30
Canada
Hi Joules,

Those are from full sized RAW images at base (100) ISO. I'm using the latest version of Lightroom Classic CC, and the lines appear on the unedited RAWs. Also, I was using the mechanical shutter. The lens was the RF 85mm f/1.2L.

I borrowed an R from CPS on two prior occasions -- once back in May and again in September. Looking back at my photos from the loaner units, they too show the same pattern -- horizontal and vertical lines.

It's always in the bright highlight areas, and usually where the highlights transition to a midtone. The lens that I predominately used with the loaner cameras was the EF 85mm f/1.2L II.

I've not found any photos so far where the issue presents itself while using an f/2.8 lens or slower. The phenomenon is definitely there with both the RF and EF 85mm versions, however, on both my camera and the two loaners.


Also, I've noticed a very digital-look checkered-artifacting in some images.
 

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Joules

EOS RP
Jul 16, 2017
369
288
Hamburg, Germany
Thanks for providing these images.

As far as I'm aware with the R there are a number of modes to choose from that have an effect on how exactly the mechanical and electronic shutter work together. And as long as the electronic shutter is involved at all, there is a possibility of highlights getting compromised when using fast aperture glass. Just because you heard a shutter sound when taking these shots it doesn't mean you were not using one of the problematic modes. The default one for example is problematic if my understanding based on reading other threads is correct.

See: https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?threads/double-shutter-sound-on-the-r.37796/

For some detail on that.

I think this is definitely worth looking into, as it should not be an issue exclusive to the R and not the 5D IV unless it has to do with the electronic shutter.

I assume you did try the latest firmwares? In of the first update fixed a different banding issue on the R that was and still is present on the 5D IV. Though I doubt these are related, it should be a point worth mentioning.

Hopefully some actual R owners can voice their thought on this, as it is interesting. The R sensor is from a pervious generation, yet it is the best FF mirrorless Canon has available for a good number of months and I would have thought such an issue would have gained a lot of attention and warrant a fix on their side if it isn't already controllable through some settings.
 

R1-7D

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 25, 2012
704
30
Canada
Hi again Joules,

Thank you for taking the time to respond and provide help.

That thread you linked to has some interesting information. My camera is, and has been at all times, set to Mode 1 Silent LV shooting. I just assumed because it was making a mechanical like noise that the electronic shutter was disabled by default.

I will disable it later today and try again.

As that thread points out (or specifically Viggo in the thread) strange things happen when shooting with fast primes on the default mode (Mode 1). With the loaner Rs I predominately used my EF 85 f/1.2L II, and now that I have the new RF 85, that is pretty much all I have been using with the camera.

I will experiment more with it tonight, but it sounds like this may be the solution to the problem. I’ll PM Viggo too, and get his thoughts - sounds like he experienced something similar.

To answer your other question: the camera has the latest firmware on it.

Thanks again for your help. I’ll report back with my findings.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,548
770
Canon has listed some gotchas when using wide apertures with silent liveview. The manual recommends disabling it with fast primes and high shutter speeds. As a result, I almost never use it.

I've checked my photos and can't see any sign of bands like yours, no matter how much I magnify them. Most of my images are raw, so I looked at both raw and jpegs to avoid issues with raw processing engines.

I would not worry too much about barely visible artifacts if it took 8X magnification to see them, its like shooting with a lens cap on.

There are times where silent shooting is a big benefit, then its a tradeoff of wide aperture, high speed shutter versus small aperture and slower shutter, or the increase in shutter noise.

I've seen posts showing this before, but have not tried to reproduce it, I believe that those who posted it are correct.
 
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Kit Lens Jockey

EOS 7D MK II
Nov 12, 2016
541
198
I noticed some of these artifacts in my photos with the EOS R, but just out of curiosity I went back and looked close at some old photos taken under similar conditions with my 5D4. (Not live view, just normal shooting.) And... GASP! When I zoom in to obscene levels, the 5D4 shows this as well! (See below, click for full size, this is from a 5D4.)

So at this point I think there are only two plausible explanations... Either the 5D4 was secretly a mirrorless camera all along, and the mirror that you see when you take the lens off is just to throw us off from discovering the truth... OR, maybe ya'll just need to stop blowing your photos up to 800%. :cautious:

And yes I admit that these artifacts might be slightly worse on the R, but again, what on earth are you doing zooming into 800%? If you're looking for subatomic particles, I advise to give up photography and go back to school for quantum physics.


5D4_8698.jpg
 

R1-7D

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 25, 2012
704
30
Canada
I noticed some of these artifacts in my photos with the EOS R, but just out of curiosity I went back and looked close at some old photos taken under similar conditions with my 5D4. (Not live view, just normal shooting.) And... GASP! When I zoom in to obscene levels, the 5D4 shows this as well! (See below, click for full size, this is from a 5D4.)

So at this point I think there are only two plausible explanations... Either the 5D4 was secretly a mirrorless camera all along, and the mirror that you see when you take the lens off is just to throw us off from discovering the truth... OR, maybe ya'll just need to stop blowing your photos up to 800%. :cautious:

And yes I admit that these artifacts might be slightly worse on the R, but again, what on earth are you doing zooming into 800%? If you're looking for subatomic particles, I advise to give up photography and go back to school for quantum physics.


View attachment 187624

Thank you for your response. To be clear, I said: "this is an 8x crop that I'm showing to illustrate the issue."
 

R1-7D

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 25, 2012
704
30
Canada
Canon has listed some gotchas when using wide apertures with silent liveview. The manual recommends disabling it with fast primes and high shutter speeds. As a result, I almost never use it.

I've checked my photos and can't see any sign of bands like yours, no matter how much I magnify them. Most of my images are raw, so I looked at both raw and jpegs to avoid issues with raw processing engines.

I would not worry too much about barely visible artifacts if it took 8X magnification to see them, its like shooting with a lens cap on.

There are times where silent shooting is a big benefit, then its a tradeoff of wide aperture, high speed shutter versus small aperture and slower shutter, or the increase in shutter noise.

I've seen posts showing this before, but have not tried to reproduce it, I believe that those who posted it are correct.
Thanks for your response, Mt. Spokane. I'll disable Silent LV Shoot, Mode 1, this evening and give it another go. Again, just to reiterate, I posted the extreme crops for illustrative purposes only -- I rarely zoom in past 1:1 unless I'm working in photoshop and am doing fine detail retouching.

I have a few images where these lines are clearly visible at 1:1, and I suspect they'd show if printed large.


If this phenomenon is caused by the Silent LV Shoot mode then it's an easy fix. I had no idea that the electronic first curtain was enabled by default. So far as I have seen, the issue is indeed only present with the fast primes -- both 85mm -- that I've been using. I've not seen the issue present itself with my 24-70 f/2.8.

Thanks again for your help.
 

R1-7D

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 25, 2012
704
30
Canada
I just finished running some tests with electronic first curtain turned completely off. Unfortunately, I am experiencing the same thing. Back to the store this camera goes. I'll get them to switch it out.
 

R1-7D

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 25, 2012
704
30
Canada
I turned off Silent LV Shoot Mode 1 and did some tests using my Christmas tree. Unfortunately, the problem persists. I also loaded several RAW (uncompressed) images into Canon's own DPP software - the problem persisted there too.

Finally, I tried Photoshop 2020, Mac OS 10.15 (Catalina) Preview, and Luminar 4.

They all showed the exact same problem except for Luminar 4, which tended to blur the images upon import for some reason.


Anyways, I've boxed the camera up. For peace of mind I am going to return it and get a different copy.
 

koenkooi

EOS 7D MK II
Feb 25, 2015
514
304
I just finished running some tests with electronic first curtain turned completely off. Unfortunately, I am experiencing the same thing. Back to the store this camera goes. I'll get them to switch it out.
EFCS is a red herring, the artefacts you are seeing are what you could see with a fully electronic shutter, the rear curtain would eliminate those.
 

R1-7D

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 25, 2012
704
30
Canada
UPDATE:

The Camera Store finally got a replacement camera in for me.

Unfortunately, the new camera is doing exactly the something. I'm getting the same strange lines/patterns shooting wide opening with the effect diminishing around f/1.8 using the RF 85mm f/1.2L lens.

I'm attaching another screen captured zoom in, as well as linking to a new RAW file from the new camera.

Also, I can see these same lines from the camera generated JPEG preview on the back of the camera screen or through the EVF.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lgd0ilhkbfj8dz3/AAAD_pA_Bo_diMb49p9v8Jioa?dl=0
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,548
770
Its not the lens, but the fast aperture. I've seen a similar post before the 85 came out.

Your best bet is to contact Canon and see what they say.