Best Possible IQ

dr croubie

Too many photos, too little time.
Jun 1, 2011
1,382
0
You want "the best", or "the best within budget"?
For backs, there's the IQ180, but there's also the new IQ280. The main advantage of the 280 over the 180 is that the 280 doesn't crap out on long exposures, get one of them for 1min+.
Going the Hasselblad route, there's the H4D200MS, it's a 50MP sensor that shifts itself by 1/2 a pixel in between 4 shots and stitches them internally to a 200MP image.
Or there's the Leica S2 and Pentax 645D. Both are 'only' 40MP, but for anything less than A2 size you can just as easily use a 35mm 20MP sensor.

Bodies, there's the Mamiya / Phase One 645DF, or any Mamiya 645 with a D in its name (ie all but the 645AF). If you're tripod-mounted you probably won't need any of the functions that come with the newer bodies.
Or there's the Alpa 12FPS, a camera designed to have higher IQ by having less shutter-induced shake (less than even a leaf shutter).
Hasselblad, Leica, and Pentax you're stuck with the bodies that you get.

Lenses, the Leica S2 has Leica quality glass. 'nuff said.
Hasselblad, you're getting their name-brand stuff too (used to be made by Zeiss, now by Fuji, either way, it's damn nice).
Phasemiya, there's the 28mm LS which is very sharp but possibly too wide for you, the 'new digital' 35mm I haven't tried but I definitly wasn't impressed by my 'C' copy of the old version.
Alpa, you can use their extremely nice (with pricetags to match) LF 'alpagon' lenses (rebadged Rodenstock Apo Sironar HR). Or you can get it with any mount you like, even EF.
And on all of those bodies you can use lenses with a longer flange via adapter, like Hassy V, Pentacon 6, Bronica, Rollei 6000, Pentax 67, etc etc...


Or realistically, a 6D with a 24mm TSE or 35mm Sigma/Zeiss is going to be more than enough for a simple book that doesn't cost $5 per page to print at stupid resolutions...

ps, a 25-35mm lens on 'FF' (24x36mm) equates to a 38-55mm on '645' (56x37mm once it's cropped, I'll presume you're cropping more panoramic than 3x2).
But don't forget digital 645 sensors aren't as big as 645 film, depending on the sensor you get you may have to get a wider lens to account for a smaller sensor...
 

eml58

1Dx
Aug 26, 2012
1,939
0
Singapore
Eldar said:
A friend of mine have the latest 80MP Phase One. He made some shots in the Pyrenees this fall, which I saw in high quality 1mx1.5m prints. Incredible dynamics, resolution, color, the lot.
I agree with Eldar Sanj, if you want the best possible IQ, Phase One 645 with the IQ280 Digital Back & perhaps the Schneider 28f/4.5 LS if your using Flash, or the 28f/4.5 AF Phase One Lens if no Flash. Schnieder also make amazingly good Tilt shift Lenses, the new 50 TS Super Angulon I've tried and it's superb.

Problem may be wether or not you can Rent the gear where you are, if in the US I wouldn't see an issue, but because this gear is sooooo expensive it's difficult to Rent in most Countries.

I've toyed with the idea of the Phase one for some time, but you need to be seriously into Landscape or Studio to step up to the cost of this gear. The Images that come out of the IQ280 Back are just amazingly good, but @ 80MP you pay for it.
 

Orangutan

EOR R
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
sanj said:
Dearest Sporgon. Stitching will not work as I need to hold the camera steady and then take multiple photos of the same shot every two minutes so the client can delete people that are moving around in the frame and create an empty shot of the place.

And I will not buy, I will rent it all for 4 odd days. Try the shot every day and pick the one with best morning light.
It would be easy for you to do a quick test of the stitching method using the suggestions others have made. You may also find info on the web about how to do this. It may take less effort (and cost) do learn this on your own equipment than to learn new equipment. A quick experiment costs you nothing but a little time. If it's successful, it's a new technical skill to add to your "kit."
 

unfocused

EOS 1D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
5,254
1,873
66
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
sanj said:
...Stitching will not work as I need to hold the camera steady and then take multiple photos of the same shot every two minutes so the client can delete people that are moving around in the frame and create an empty shot of the place.
For what it is worth, Martin Evening has a tutorial in his "Adobe Photoshop Ultimate Workhsop" book (at least he did in the CS4 version) on using multiple images to remove tourists from the "bean" in Chicago. You might check with your client to see if this is the sort of thing they are contemplating. (He actually shot about 100+ images over an hour and stacked them in Photoshop to remove the people)
 

sanj

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 22, 2012
3,303
123
unfocused said:
sanj said:
...Stitching will not work as I need to hold the camera steady and then take multiple photos of the same shot every two minutes so the client can delete people that are moving around in the frame and create an empty shot of the place.
For what it is worth, Martin Evening has a tutorial in his "Adobe Photoshop Ultimate Workhsop" book (at least he did in the CS4 version) on using multiple images to remove tourists from the "bean" in Chicago. You might check with your client to see if this is the sort of thing they are contemplating. (He actually shot about 100+ images over an hour and stacked them in Photoshop to remove the people)
Thank you, will check. This is exactly what needs to be done. The question now is, should I shoot this on format better than my 5d3 or not? Would not a larger format help in cleaner post? :)
 

sanj

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 22, 2012
3,303
123
chauncey said:
Let me see if I've got this right...It's a coffee table book and the client is doing all the PP work.
Stitch the tripod mounted images using what you have, insuring spot-on camera settings, and move on.
You don't need to make a huge production out of it...when he finishes, you probably won't even recognize it anyway.
Yes, I will not recognize it I am sure. There is complete transparency here. He will clone out people, add sky etc.
 

sanj

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 22, 2012
3,303
123
Thank you all for the valuable insights. I have learnt a lot. Still bit confused, but clarity is coming in.

Am attaching a photo of roughly where I will be. Not exactly here but similar situation.
 

Attachments

sanj

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 22, 2012
3,303
123
dr croubie said:
You want "the best", or "the best within budget"?
For backs, there's the IQ180, but there's also the new IQ280. The main advantage of the 280 over the 180 is that the 280 doesn't crap out on long exposures, get one of them for 1min+.
Going the Hasselblad route, there's the H4D200MS, it's a 50MP sensor that shifts itself by 1/2 a pixel in between 4 shots and stitches them internally to a 200MP image.
Or there's the Leica S2 and Pentax 645D. Both are 'only' 40MP, but for anything less than A2 size you can just as easily use a 35mm 20MP sensor.

Bodies, there's the Mamiya / Phase One 645DF, or any Mamiya 645 with a D in its name (ie all but the 645AF). If you're tripod-mounted you probably won't need any of the functions that come with the newer bodies.
Or there's the Alpa 12FPS, a camera designed to have higher IQ by having less shutter-induced shake (less than even a leaf shutter).
Hasselblad, Leica, and Pentax you're stuck with the bodies that you get.

Lenses, the Leica S2 has Leica quality glass. 'nuff said.
Hasselblad, you're getting their name-brand stuff too (used to be made by Zeiss, now by Fuji, either way, it's damn nice).
Phasemiya, there's the 28mm LS which is very sharp but possibly too wide for you, the 'new digital' 35mm I haven't tried but I definitly wasn't impressed by my 'C' copy of the old version.
Alpa, you can use their extremely nice (with pricetags to match) LF 'alpagon' lenses (rebadged Rodenstock Apo Sironar HR). Or you can get it with any mount you like, even EF.
And on all of those bodies you can use lenses with a longer flange via adapter, like Hassy V, Pentacon 6, Bronica, Rollei 6000, Pentax 67, etc etc...


Or realistically, a 6D with a 24mm TSE or 35mm Sigma/Zeiss is going to be more than enough for a simple book that doesn't cost $5 per page to print at stupid resolutions...

ps, a 25-35mm lens on 'FF' (24x36mm) equates to a 38-55mm on '645' (56x37mm once it's cropped, I'll presume you're cropping more panoramic than 3x2).
But don't forget digital 645 sensors aren't as big as 645 film, depending on the sensor you get you may have to get a wider lens to account for a smaller sensor...
Phew! Thx.
 

hendrik-sg

EOS RP
Apr 21, 2011
247
25
I dont want to offend you, but.....

If i would need (and pay for) this shot i wouldnt give the order to someone woh has to ask in a forum about equipment.

If i take my skills/equipment as a comparision, i would say most bad pics are bad as a result of lacking skill not because of bad equipment.

but anyway two thoughts:

- are the demands so high because the customer knows that a normal FF Shot is not enough, or is this your first order and you want to do your best?
- if there are trees, water, boats or anything other that might move, stitching might be difficult if there is any wind at all.
- maybe do testshot (of anything else) and practise the workflow with the guy who does the PP, costs less than renting MF equipment

For me using unknown equipment (recommended by forum useres) would be a no go, if you do any mistakes, bad settings etc, the results may be worse than with your normal equipment. Example: give a 85ii 1.2 and a 5diii to a rebel shooter who shoots with kit zoom in automatic mode and ask him to take portraits/party pics in low light. I would bet hard money that he will get not even one sharp shot.
 

Hillsilly

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 16, 2010
1,097
0
neuroanatomist said:
If people are actually moving, not standing still, you could consider a 10 stop ND filter as a way to effectively remove them.
Probably not telling you anything you don't know, but I'd second this and suggest you give it a try as part of the shoot. During the very early morning, a 10 stop filter will require fairly long exposures. Depending upon the light and your aperture, you might be able to push the exposure out to the 2 to 4 minute range. Most people won't stay still for that long. And, as if by magic, anyone who is moving won't appear in the final image. Instant ghost town. That'll save a lot of work later (even if the work is being done by someone else). So, give them what they asked for with the multiple shots (to show that you can follow instructions), then give them what they need (so that you become the photographer they'll always turn to.)

You can also stack ND filters, giving significantly longer exposure times and greater people removing ability. Adding another 3 stop ND, will turn a 4 minute exposure into (in theory) a 32 minute exposure - but its not that simple - as the sun rises, your exposure times need to reduce, so there's a little experimentation involved. But you could just set this up on your normal camera with a 20 minute / 25 minute exposure while you play around with the medium format gear. If you like the results on day one, put the ND filters on the medium format camera on day two and try it with the better gear.
 

Deva

EOS T7i
Sep 12, 2012
70
0
sanj said:
Thank you all for the valuable insights. I have learnt a lot. Still bit confused, but clarity is coming in.

Am attaching a photo of roughly where I will be. Not exactly here but similar situation.
ok, having now seen an example of the sort of scene you'll be photographing, can we go back to your original question - what exactly is intended to be included in the picture? Do you want to get rid of all the people? The smoke? The moving boats? Is it meant to be a sun-lit scene (i.e. with shadows) or overcast?

What you want to include - or not - makes a big difference to how you could do this.
 

Northstar

EOR R
Mar 31, 2012
1,673
0
105
US - Midwest
sanj said:
Thank you all for the valuable insights. I have learnt a lot. Still bit confused, but clarity is coming in.

Am attaching a photo of roughly where I will be. Not exactly here but similar situation.
My first thought was similar to a few others about a 10 stop filter.... But I see boats and water so that idea won't work.

I agree with some others that you don't need med format, just use FF and stitching....you would become a more well rounded photographer by learning a new technique...stitching is only going to become more popular in the future with the ever increasing number of internet connected tablets and computers for viewing huge stitched photos.
 

dryanparker

Art photographer based in Miami.
Oct 9, 2011
121
0
40
Coconut Grove, FL
www.dryanparker.com
Well, I have to admit, reading more of the comments and seeing the location has changed my view a bit.

1) If you've never used a medium format digital system, this is probably not the best time to test drive it. Even accomplished photographers will have some measure of learning when changing formats. Not saying it can't be done, I just wouldn't dive into it blind. If you have a week or so ahead of the shoot, extending the rental would be hugely beneficial for practice. (I'm assuming you're already a competent and accomplished photographer.) I'd also get input from the rental company's representative as to the best system and lens for this particular shoot.

2) As mentioned in prior posts, I'm a medium format guy, but if I'm in your position, I wouldn't use it for this. It's just not needed, and I have my doubts that your client will notice the difference. Remember: IQ doesn't necessarily follow image size. 60-80MP are awesome to have, but most images in coffee table books weren't shot using that kind of gear.

3) As for the scene, I think you'll have trouble isolating or removing all the people. That's a tricky move that will require careful planning and a number of exposures. Also, I think shift movements are important given the proximity to the buildings, but that is based on the look you'd like to achieve.

Recommendation: 5D3 + TS-E 24 II (with or without movements, it's a brilliant lens)
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,635
2,142
dryanparker said:
Recommendation: 5D3 + TS-E 24 II (with or without movements, it's a brilliant lens)
Seconded. Just like with MF, if you've not used a TS-E lens before, getting it a day or two before you need to use it is important for practice (especially if you'll be using tilt for more DoF at wider apertures, although it doesn't look like that would be needd based on your example shot, and shift is easier to use). Same for a pano head (you'll want time to find the 'nodal point' of the lens you'll be using, too).

Looks like the example image that was attached was shot with a Fujji X100 - that means a FF-equivalent FoV of ~35mm. Depending on the needed aspect ratio, you could shoot 2-3 shots in portrait orientation (need a L-bracket) with a TS-E 24L II, using shift to correct the keystoning. That would give you plenty of resolution in the stitched image, excellent IQ, etc.
 

sanj

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 22, 2012
3,303
123
neuroanatomist said:
dryanparker said:
Recommendation: 5D3 + TS-E 24 II (with or without movements, it's a brilliant lens)
Seconded. Just like with MF, if you've not used a TS-E lens before, getting it a day or two before you need to use it is important for practice (especially if you'll be using tilt for more DoF at wider apertures, although it doesn't look like that would be needd based on your example shot, and shift is easier to use). Same for a pano head (you'll want time to find the 'nodal point' of the lens you'll be using, too).

Looks like the example image that was attached was shot with a Fujji X100 - that means a FF-equivalent FoV of ~35mm. Depending on the needed aspect ratio, you could shoot 2-3 shots in portrait orientation (need a L-bracket) with a TS-E 24L II, using shift to correct the keystoning. That would give you plenty of resolution in the stitched image, excellent IQ, etc.
I have had the 24 ts with me for a while and love shooting with it although I am not up to speed with tilt/shift concepts to the fullest.

BUT what I want to know is how on earth did you know it was shot from Fuji x100? :)
 

pato

EOS T7i
Sep 20, 2012
90
0
Switzerland
It's still in the picture data embedded. If you open the file in a HEX editor you'll see several adobe comments, one of them is "Digital Camera Fine Pix X100 Ver1.30". :)
 

sanj

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 22, 2012
3,303
123
dryanparker said:
Well, I have to admit, reading more of the comments and seeing the location has changed my view a bit.

1) If you've never used a medium format digital system, this is probably not the best time to test drive it. Even accomplished photographers will have some measure of learning when changing formats. Not saying it can't be done, I just wouldn't dive into it blind. If you have a week or so ahead of the shoot, extending the rental would be hugely beneficial for practice. (I'm assuming you're already a competent and accomplished photographer.) I'd also get input from the rental company's representative as to the best system and lens for this particular shoot.

2) As mentioned in prior posts, I'm a medium format guy, but if I'm in your position, I wouldn't use it for this. It's just not needed, and I have my doubts that your client will notice the difference. Remember: IQ doesn't necessarily follow image size. 60-80MP are awesome to have, but most images in coffee table books weren't shot using that kind of gear.

3) As for the scene, I think you'll have trouble isolating or removing all the people. That's a tricky move that will require careful planning and a number of exposures. Also, I think shift movements are important given the proximity to the buildings, but that is based on the look you'd like to achieve.

Recommendation: 5D3 + TS-E 24 II (with or without movements, it's a brilliant lens)
I think I am going to forget large/medium format. :(
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,635
2,142
sanj said:
I think I am going to forget large/medium format. :(
It's nothing to be sad about. What matters is using the right tool for the job, and the 'biggest' tool isn't always the best one…

 

sanj

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 22, 2012
3,303
123
I may go ahead with 5d3 on this one, but I have made a promise to myself that I am going to test out the medium formats personally in the near future and judge for myself.

For the life of me I cant figure out why so many of you are saying there will not be an IQ difference on a coffee table book if shot on a 35mm 23mp camera vs a larger 60mp sensor....

Must get to the bottom of this!