Best Possible IQ
- Thread starter sanj
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dryanparker
Art photographer based in Miami.
sanj said:
I'd say this is an excellent idea.
The 5D3 is more than capable of delivering professional results with knowledgeable operation and an eye for composition. I believe a great image is made when you know how to use the tools at your disposal. Some of my favorite images were made with a 7D, and those 18MP look great even on a 24x36 canvas.
80MP images aren't necessarily better...only larger. You still have to know how to use the tools to match your creative vision. I'd much rather have a beautiful 23MP image than poor 80MP!
One final note on the 80MP: files that size are most helpful in areas like fashion photography when you're cropping into an image and need to maintain a high resulting resolution.
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pato said:It's still in the picture data embedded. If you open the file in a HEX editor you'll see several adobe comments, one of them is "Digital Camera Fine Pix X100 Ver1.30".
Or, if you don't have or want a Hex editor, there are browser plugins like "FxIF" for Firefox
Interestingly enough, it's not the camera model field, it's the "Software" field that says "Digital Camera FinePix X100 Ver1.30".
So the software stripped all identifiable info and then added identifiable info.
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dryanparker
Art photographer based in Miami.
dryanparker said:
...or you're an animal who shoots landscapes or architecture and just loves making massive images. Who are we kidding? That's a totally viable use of the platform. And thank goodness, because that's why I got into medium format. (Of course, I had to opt for film due to the price, but it's definitely fun!)
Best of luck with the shoot!
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serendipidy said:sanj said:
Join the circle of confusion
+1
It's really about the output. The best quality commercial offset printing is done via halftone screening at ~200 lines per inch (LPI) - that's for art books, as opposed to magazines and newsprint which use lower resolution screens (in the 80-150 LPI range). Printers generally want twice that in dots per inch (DPI) of digital resolution.
Most coffee table books that I have and have seen are square. That means a 2-page spread will have an aspect ratio between 2:1 and 2.4:1 (allowing a 1" border with no gutter, bigger books get closer to 2:1). To cover that aspect ratio, you'd need a 4-frame stitch from your 3:2 sensor in portrait orientation (~3.3 frames needed, but you always need overlap to stitch). With the 22 MP of the 5DIII, that gives you ~70 MP final image. A 2-page spread of a 12x12" coffee table book means a 22x10" image, so at 400 dpi you need 8800x4000 pixels, or 35 MP…you'd have twice the amount of resolution you need. That 70 MP image would be sufficient for a 2-page spread in a coffee table book of up to about 16x16".
If you need to go larger, you can use a longer focal length and stitch a two-row pano together, although that gets a little more complicated (you need a multirow pano setup, rather than just a single-row). You can put a 1.x4III behind your TS-E 24L II, and still have excellent resolution and IQ from the combo.
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neuroanatomist said:serendipidy said:sanj said:
Join the circle of confusion
+1
It's really about the output. The best quality commercial offset printing is done via halftone screening at ~200 lines per inch (LPI) - that's for art books, as opposed to magazines and newsprint which use lower resolution screens (in the 80-150 LPI range). Printers generally want twice that in dots per inch (DPI) of digital resolution.
Most coffee table books that I have and have seen are square. That means a 2-page spread will have an aspect ratio between 2:1 and 2.4:1 (allowing a 1" border with no gutter, bigger books get closer to 2:1). To cover that aspect ratio, you'd need a 4-frame stitch from your 3:2 sensor in portrait orientation (~3.3 frames needed, but you always need overlap to stitch). With the 22 MP of the 5DIII, that gives you ~70 MP final image. A 2-page spread of a 12x12" coffee table book means a 22x10" image, so at 400 dpi you need 8800x4000 pixels, or 35 MP…you'd have twice the amount of resolution you need. That 70 MP image would be sufficient for a 2-page spread in a coffee table book of up to about 16x16".
If you need to go larger, you can use a longer focal length and stitch a two-row pano together, although that gets a little more complicated (you need a multirow pano setup, rather than just a single-row). You can put a 1.x4III behind your TS-E 24L II, and still have excellent resolution and IQ from the combo.
Neuro...as always, a clear and succinct explanation of the problem. Thank you for posting. We all learn so much from you on this site. 8)
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unfocused
Photos/Photo Book Reviews: www.thecuriouseye.com
Sanj,
You always underestimate yourself when you are one of the best photographers I've seen. They picked you because of your great portfolio. Relax.
Just call the client and tell them you want to make sure you provide them with the files they need. Ask to talk to whomever is doing post-processing and find out how they envision accomplishing this. (They'll probably be so amazed that a photographer actually talked to them before the shoot that they'll love you forever.)
You can explain that you see several possible approaches and you want to talk about how he or she envisions the final product. Personally, I'm not comfortable with the ND filter approach because it's kind of a one shot, roll the dice sort of thing and the risk of getting "ghosts" is really strong. (See the first ever recorded picture of a human being: Niepce's Paris Street Scene, where the guy getting his shoes shined shows up because he was standing still while the rest of the people on the street were moving)
I've never tried the approach recommended by Martin Evening, but it seems to me that would be a lot safer provided the person doing the processing understands what they are doing.
Honestly, I'm a little worried about not knowing their expectations. It's very possible that the only post-processing they intend to do is converting and tweaking the images for CMYK. He/she may have a heart attack if you give them 50 or 60 files that need to be merged without talking to them first.
As far as cameras, any full frame will be more than adequate. Heck, you could probably shoot it on a 7D and be fine. Remember, the major limiting factor is going to be the output resolution, not the capture resolution.
You always underestimate yourself when you are one of the best photographers I've seen. They picked you because of your great portfolio. Relax.
Just call the client and tell them you want to make sure you provide them with the files they need. Ask to talk to whomever is doing post-processing and find out how they envision accomplishing this. (They'll probably be so amazed that a photographer actually talked to them before the shoot that they'll love you forever.)
You can explain that you see several possible approaches and you want to talk about how he or she envisions the final product. Personally, I'm not comfortable with the ND filter approach because it's kind of a one shot, roll the dice sort of thing and the risk of getting "ghosts" is really strong. (See the first ever recorded picture of a human being: Niepce's Paris Street Scene, where the guy getting his shoes shined shows up because he was standing still while the rest of the people on the street were moving)
I've never tried the approach recommended by Martin Evening, but it seems to me that would be a lot safer provided the person doing the processing understands what they are doing.
Honestly, I'm a little worried about not knowing their expectations. It's very possible that the only post-processing they intend to do is converting and tweaking the images for CMYK. He/she may have a heart attack if you give them 50 or 60 files that need to be merged without talking to them first.
As far as cameras, any full frame will be more than adequate. Heck, you could probably shoot it on a 7D and be fine. Remember, the major limiting factor is going to be the output resolution, not the capture resolution.
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acoll123 said:
I wouldn't do a shift-pano for two reasons. One, it's a two frame stitch (you can shoot three, but you get the width of two), and in portrait orientation that gives a 4:3 aspect ratio - not enough for a 2-page spread. Two, I'm not sure how representative the example shot Sanj posted is, but if shooting from a lower angle with buildings on a ridge, shift would be better used to correct for keystoning.
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There are many considerations for this task and here are a few observations I would ponder while planning a similar job.
First off, I print decent sizes from 135 format images and I have shot for artists art books, most of the time they are OK but in many conditions a medium format capture will wipe the floor of 135 with regards detail, tonality and DR, even in modest sized prints, especially in challenging light (like early mornings). But it can be very subject and style dependent, without knowing the post processors style it is impossible to say whether MF is a better approach for this specific image.
Second, if you are shooting at Varanasi from a boat stitching isn't a practical option. I have done it.
Third, if you intend to use shift, nodal/entry point stitching is not an option, well I have never managed it, all I ever got was some weird projection anomalies.
Fourth, if you intend to do a traditional stitch with a 135 format TS-E 24 to get a 35mm fov then you'd need to use a 2XTC, and whilst the TS-E 24 is a sublime lens you cannot fail to take an IQ hit. If "Best Possible IQ" truthfully is the goal that is not the way to get it.
Fifth, MF is not that steep a learning curve, you will need a laptop with lots of RAM and HDD space, and shooting tethered really helps. If you have methodically shot landscapes etc then there are no real gottchas to worry about.
Sixth, shooting MF opens up a plethora of exotic very high quality lenses that will give you 80MP of detail and massive DR in one shot.
Seven, if you do go the 135 format route the best way to shoot for a 2:1 aspect ratio is a TS-E 24 + 1.4 TC and do a four shift "rotation" stitch. That is four diagonally shifted images, this method gives good overlap and enough cropping distance to lose the corners closest to the image circle.
Eight, email Roger over at LensRentals, he loves a challenge like this and will tell you straight what body, lens and software combo would be most effective.
These are just a few things I'd mull over in preparation. As a first thought, with "Best Possible IQ" in the brief, it would take an awful lot to make me drop rented MF to even consider 135 (and I am a huge 135 format fan), the differences are not just pixel numbers, but AA filters, DR and tonality.
First off, I print decent sizes from 135 format images and I have shot for artists art books, most of the time they are OK but in many conditions a medium format capture will wipe the floor of 135 with regards detail, tonality and DR, even in modest sized prints, especially in challenging light (like early mornings). But it can be very subject and style dependent, without knowing the post processors style it is impossible to say whether MF is a better approach for this specific image.
Second, if you are shooting at Varanasi from a boat stitching isn't a practical option. I have done it.
Third, if you intend to use shift, nodal/entry point stitching is not an option, well I have never managed it, all I ever got was some weird projection anomalies.
Fourth, if you intend to do a traditional stitch with a 135 format TS-E 24 to get a 35mm fov then you'd need to use a 2XTC, and whilst the TS-E 24 is a sublime lens you cannot fail to take an IQ hit. If "Best Possible IQ" truthfully is the goal that is not the way to get it.
Fifth, MF is not that steep a learning curve, you will need a laptop with lots of RAM and HDD space, and shooting tethered really helps. If you have methodically shot landscapes etc then there are no real gottchas to worry about.
Sixth, shooting MF opens up a plethora of exotic very high quality lenses that will give you 80MP of detail and massive DR in one shot.
Seven, if you do go the 135 format route the best way to shoot for a 2:1 aspect ratio is a TS-E 24 + 1.4 TC and do a four shift "rotation" stitch. That is four diagonally shifted images, this method gives good overlap and enough cropping distance to lose the corners closest to the image circle.
Eight, email Roger over at LensRentals, he loves a challenge like this and will tell you straight what body, lens and software combo would be most effective.
These are just a few things I'd mull over in preparation. As a first thought, with "Best Possible IQ" in the brief, it would take an awful lot to make me drop rented MF to even consider 135 (and I am a huge 135 format fan), the differences are not just pixel numbers, but AA filters, DR and tonality.
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Why not just use an array of DSLR's with synced shutters?
http://www.breezesys.com/Images/30Darray.jpg
http://www.breezesys.com/MultiCamera/
Using 3 Nikon D800's you would have TWICE the image quality of the best medium format camera.
This would deliver the highest possible image quality.
Especially paired with a very high quality 50mm lens like the new nikon 58mm.
http://www.breezesys.com/Images/30Darray.jpg
http://www.breezesys.com/MultiCamera/
Using 3 Nikon D800's you would have TWICE the image quality of the best medium format camera.
This would deliver the highest possible image quality.
Especially paired with a very high quality 50mm lens like the new nikon 58mm.
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privatebydesign said:
Thank you so much. So much valuable information. You are the rare one who says medium format will look better even in small size prints.
We intend to get a sturdy crane which will go out about 10 ft into the river and improve the angle of photo. I am not looking at a stitch option, the job requires several photos taken at quick succession to later remove people and create an 'empty' shot.
When we rent stuff like MF in Bombay it comes with a guy who knows the camera technically.
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sanj said:Thank you so much. So much valuable information. You are the rare one who says medium format will look better even in small size prints.
We intend to get a sturdy crane which will go out about 10 ft into the river and improve the angle of photo. I am not looking at a stitch option, the job requires several photos taken at quick succession to later remove people and create an 'empty' shot.
When we rent stuff like MF in Bombay it comes with a guy who knows the camera technically.
Hm, a crane, not sure how that will work, especially if it is from the "similar position" you posted earlier. There is no way you'll get a crane of any size down from the street to the waters edge anywhere near Manikarnika Ghat, and water level/time of year is a huge consideration, further, the reach a crane would need to get you out far enough from level ground is not a simple task.
Also, 10ft out into the river will probably need a much wider lens, I was 15- 20 feet out for this shot with a 28mm lens on ff.
This is not a camera gear issue, rather a logistical issue.
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A crane - yea, not going to work well between the basket you will be in to shoot the image will always be moving. With that, stitching/stacking/ND filters isn't going to work. You may get away with an extra tall tripod if the water is shallow enough. You'd be better off getting as big a barge/boat as you can afford.
What is the path of the sun for the shot on the days you'll be shooting? You will need the fill lighting.
Has the discussions with the client gotten you a bit more information as to the files they are expecting from you? Can you give them another 5d mk3 file as a test and see if it meets their publishing needs? If you need more resolution, the cheap method is Nikon/Sony as a single shot, or the expensive way is the DMF method.
The Pentax 645D can be rented from Roger at LR, operates much like a DSLR, but Pentax glass is hard to come by. Other shops can rent you a Hasselblad or Phase One kit, but unless you're budgeting for it in time and expense it can be prohibitive. Since you said the rental would come with a guy, make sure you still have the time to work with the digital tech ahead of time.
Personally, I'd do it with a Hasselblad H4/5D -50 or -60 and the 35-90mm HCD lens. You're going to want room to crop & level the shot. The Phase One kit would do a slightly better job, but you'd be using the 75-150mm lens - focal or leaf shutter doesn't really matter. The ultimate would be a Phase One back with a Arca/Alpa/Cambo technical camera body and a Rodenstock or Schneider lens setup (designed more for landscape photography and infinite focus, but all manual and no zooms).
What is the path of the sun for the shot on the days you'll be shooting? You will need the fill lighting.
Has the discussions with the client gotten you a bit more information as to the files they are expecting from you? Can you give them another 5d mk3 file as a test and see if it meets their publishing needs? If you need more resolution, the cheap method is Nikon/Sony as a single shot, or the expensive way is the DMF method.
The Pentax 645D can be rented from Roger at LR, operates much like a DSLR, but Pentax glass is hard to come by. Other shops can rent you a Hasselblad or Phase One kit, but unless you're budgeting for it in time and expense it can be prohibitive. Since you said the rental would come with a guy, make sure you still have the time to work with the digital tech ahead of time.
Personally, I'd do it with a Hasselblad H4/5D -50 or -60 and the 35-90mm HCD lens. You're going to want room to crop & level the shot. The Phase One kit would do a slightly better job, but you'd be using the 75-150mm lens - focal or leaf shutter doesn't really matter. The ultimate would be a Phase One back with a Arca/Alpa/Cambo technical camera body and a Rodenstock or Schneider lens setup (designed more for landscape photography and infinite focus, but all manual and no zooms).
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If there is going to be water and smoke in the picture this will certainly cause difficulty in stitching, especially if the water is disturbed by boats or wind. I'm currently down in the South East of England shooting around the Norfolk Broad, an area littered with creeks and waterways, and the stitching is taking some doing.
However, 'best IQ' at the size stated ? We all know technique has as big an impact as anything when it comes to 'IQ'. Any FF camera coupled with a good lens and technique must be able to fit the bill here.
My concern over MF would be unfamiliarity with the gear and focal length required, but if you are confident that this will not be a problem, and have the desire to shoot on digital MF then go for it
However, 'best IQ' at the size stated ? We all know technique has as big an impact as anything when it comes to 'IQ'. Any FF camera coupled with a good lens and technique must be able to fit the bill here.
My concern over MF would be unfamiliarity with the gear and focal length required, but if you are confident that this will not be a problem, and have the desire to shoot on digital MF then go for it
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