Birdsasart migrates to Nikon

[Jack Douglas]

JBSF, I agree with you 100%. The site is useful to a relative beginner like me but hard to stomach and since it's not "that" useful, I plan to abandon the somewhat time wasting activity.

It gets boring looking at the same old pelican shots being pixel peeped and hearing about beach shooting and shifting the tripod a few degrees, which of course does nothing for me traipsing around in the bush hand-held trying to sneak up on a wary subject. Ari is a better fit for me if I'm so inclined.

Now there will be even more pixel peeping and advice to crop a photo 70%. I guess a pelican head with the eye cropped out counts as art; I'm surely no art expert, but it doesn't do much for me as a bird lover!

There is honesty in some of it though, for example: "... and I are head over heels in love with the D-850 image files". As a previous poster mentioned there is nothing like the lovey-dovey effect! Now I must un-check this thread.

Jack

 

[privatebydesign]

JBSF, I agree with you 100%. The site is useful to a relative beginner like me but hard to stomach and since it's not "that" useful, I plan to abandon the somewhat time wasting activity.

It gets boring looking at the same old pelican shots being pixel peeped and hearing about beach shooting and shifting the tripod a few degrees, which of course does nothing for me traipsing around in the bush hand-held trying to sneak up on a wary subject. Ari is a better fit for me if I'm so inclined.

Now there will be even more pixel peeping and advice to crop a photo 70%. I guess a pelican head with the eye cropped out counts as art; I'm surely no art expert, but it doesn't do much for me as a bird lover!

There is honesty in some of it though, for example: "... and I are head over heels in love with the D-850 image files". As a previous poster mentioned there is nothing like the lovey-dovey effect! Now I must un-check this thread.

Jack

Jack,

Just come and stay in my house for the summer, you'll get all the experience you could ever want in the 'Morris' environment. It sure is easy honing your BIF skills on big slow flying birds that are perched 15'-30' from you!

 

[AlanF]

Private, you could open up a very popular guest house!

 

[Don Haines]

if you always shoot in the same location with largely the same birds and already have a ton of amazing shots, it's going to get boring or you start pixel peeping fretting (PPF). The perfect solution is travel and photography.

Jack

Or the birds start to recognize you. I have two hawks that live next to my house. I have photographed them so many times, I think they know what I look like and they almost always fly away when I appear with my camera now.

I have heard that in some city parks, that the birds have become habituated to people, particularly from feeding, and will allow you to approach closer than wild birds will normally allow.....

They are staying down so as to be photographed even by people using Canon cameras ;D ;D ;D

It's not just Canon shooters that are having problems.... Nikon cameras seem to have problems with MFD when shooting birds...... Looks like Canon and Nikon are both doomed and we better switch to Sony!

 

[Talys]

Cool photo, Don

 

[Don Haines]

Cool photo, Don

Yes,

I firmly believe that there is so much more than camera body that goes into a good picture..... like a bit of research into locations.....

 

[Mikehit]

Here is an interesting comment by Art.

Trying to Explain …
I shared today’s featured image with skilled flight photographer Arash Hazeghi, one of our crack Avian Moderators on BirdPhotographers.Net. He responded, “Looks good but I can’t believe you couldn’t get that with Canon. With all due respect, a pelican is no challenge for yours truly; try an incoming peregrine or kestrel.”

Arash is 100% correct. I could have gotten today’s featured image with Canon gear. Could have. And Arash and Patrick Sparkman and other top bird photographers would have nailed sharp focus on this one with any halfway decent camera body because of their superior skills, strength, hand-eye coordination, and stamina. But for me, I might or might not have gotten this one sharp with my Canon gear. How do I know? Because that it the reality I experienced for the past two decades when my success rate in simple situations like this was from 20-40%. With my new Nikon gear my success rate in these situations has risen to well more than 90%.

Now don’t get too, too excited. As I wrote in response to a comment yesterday, there are more than a few things that I hate about Nikon camera bodies. I will be sharing them with y’all here fairly soon.

Excellent behavioural photographer. Crap in-flight.
There is hope for me yet....

 

[Orangutan]

Here is an interesting comment by Art.

Trying to Explain …
my success rate in simple situations like this was from 20-40%. With my new Nikon gear my success rate in these situations has risen to well more than 90%.

Now don’t get too, too excited. As I wrote in response to a comment yesterday, there are more than a few things that I hate about Nikon camera bodies. I will be sharing them with y’all here fairly soon.

Excellent behavioural photographer. Crap in-flight.
There is hope for me yet....

My success rate with close-in swallows is less than 1%, maybe I should buy expensive Nikon gear to crank it way up to 2%.

Just curious: not having used top-end gear, I've always assumed they were "about equal," and it all came down to skill. Has he not gone out with Arash for lessons? Has Arash not handed him a pre-configured body and said "ok, do this..."?

 

[tron]

Here is an interesting comment by Art.

Trying to Explain …
my success rate in simple situations like this was from 20-40%. With my new Nikon gear my success rate in these situations has risen to well more than 90%.

Now don’t get too, too excited. As I wrote in response to a comment yesterday, there are more than a few things that I hate about Nikon camera bodies. I will be sharing them with y’all here fairly soon.

Excellent behavioural photographer. Crap in-flight.
There is hope for me yet....

My success rate with close-in swallows is less than 1%, maybe I should buy expensive Nikon gear to crank it way up to 2%.

Just curious: not having used top-end gear, I've always assumed they were "about equal," and it all came down to skill. Has he not gone out with Arash for lessons? Has Arash not handed him a pre-configured body and said "ok, do this..."?

;D ;D ;D

 

[Mikehit]

Here is an interesting comment by Art.

Trying to Explain …
my success rate in simple situations like this was from 20-40%. With my new Nikon gear my success rate in these situations has risen to well more than 90%.

Now don’t get too, too excited. As I wrote in response to a comment yesterday, there are more than a few things that I hate about Nikon camera bodies. I will be sharing them with y’all here fairly soon.

Excellent behavioural photographer. Crap in-flight.
There is hope for me yet....

My success rate with close-in swallows is less than 1%, maybe I should buy expensive Nikon gear to crank it way up to 2%.

Just curious: not having used top-end gear, I've always assumed they were "about equal," and it all came down to skill. Has he not gone out with Arash for lessons? Has Arash not handed him a pre-configured body and said "ok, do this..."?

I believe Arash has tried to set his gear up for him.
Reading comments by different people who have used both systems, the issue is not AF in terms of lenses and body, but in the way the algorithm works, and the Nikons reputedly are able to discriminate better than Canon between the intended subject and the background when tracking. If that is correct then the Nikon has clear advantages.
Interestingly, early reviews of the Sony A9 report the same sort of thing. I say 'interestingly', because I have sometimes wondered how close the cooperation between Sony and Nikon is.

 

[privatebydesign]

My success rate with close-in swallows is less than 1%, maybe I should buy expensive Nikon gear to crank it way up to 2%.

Just curious: not having used top-end gear, I've always assumed they were "about equal," and it all came down to skill. Has he not gone out with Arash for lessons? Has Arash not handed him a pre-configured body and said "ok, do this..."?

Two counter points.

If my success rate went for 1% to 2% I'd be increasing my success rate by 100%, so I'd consider that a very reasonable reason to swap.

I found using others settings just doesn't work for me yet I can achieve similar hit rates with my camera set up differently just because f the way my brain/button coordination works. Setting up AF for that final few percent of success is a time consuming and laborious process, it is work to get it right and there is limited value in others settings.

I find great variances in my ability to keep up with the action and so I find a case setting that works one day won't work another. For that reason I have abandoned case settings and have the three AF variables set up on a custom menu like Grant Atkinson recommends in his various AF guides on YouTube.

 

[tron]

To be fair, it suddenly occured to me that maybe Art was trying to take BIF photos using 5D4 with a 2XIII converter. Maybe that is not a very successful combination. But this is a MAYBE. I have tried it myself once and failed. But I consider it user error on my part.
So don't consider this an opinion on 5D4 tracking capabilities just as a report of what I have tried that work
more for me.

I had success (for BIF) with the following combinations:

7DII + 400DO II
7DII + 400DO II + 1.4XIII
(not much used, generally this combination may need a few shots to get the best even for static subjects)
7DII + 500IS II
5DsR + 500IS II

If I am without car and I have to walk a lot I take just the 400DOII otherwise the 500II.
An important reason why I didn't try again with the 5D4 is that normally it is used with another lens: 16-35 or 24-70 when there are landscape opportunities or with a 100-400 as a second "urgent" birding kit.

 

[privatebydesign]

No he had 1DX MkII's and 5D MkIV's.

 

[AlanF]

Nikon and Sony currently have better algorithms for tracking than does Canon in certain respects. So, we just have to wait for a firmware update from Canon. I am not going to switch from Canon in a leapfrogging exercise. In my continued search for light telephoto lenses, I tried out the Nikon D5OO/300mm f/4 PF combo in a local departmental store and compared it with my 5DSR/100-400mm II. At 300mm, the IQ was about the same for both but whereas at 1/60s the Canon had no visible shake the Nikon one was bad. This morning, I went out with the 5DSR and 400mm DO II + 1.4xTC and got a fleeting shot of a hawfinch nestled between branches and twigs in a tree, the guy next to me with a D500 and the 200-500mm failed. I really don't think at my level I am limited by Canon gear, just by my strength and skill.

 

[AlanF]

Cool photo, Don

Yes,

I firmly believe that there is so much more than camera body that goes into a good picture..... like a bit of research into locations.....

Here is a good location for Talys I came across on Sunday.

 

[Talys]

Here is a good location for Talys I came across on Sunday.

Haha neat

Nikon and Sony currently have better algorithms for tracking than does Canon in certain respects. So, we just have to wait for a firmware update from Canon. I am not going to switch from Canon in a leapfrogging exercise.

+1. I have no problem acknowledging the superior sensor in Nikon and Sony, but I'm not one to switch systems every time that happens.

1) It doesn't make sense, long term -- at some point, Canon will have something I really want. Then what?
2) I'm not versatile enough to shoot Nikon and Canon at the same time; the controls become muscle memory
3) There's a lot of stuff I like more about Canon than Nikon, like lenses and DPAF and controls
4) Aside from the camera, there's a TON of accessories that add up to thousands of dollars, like several flash triggers and compatible receivers (for strobes), a half dozen RT flashes, grips, batteries, L plates, wired triggers, and tons of filters that might be a different diameter on Nikon lenses.

Oh, one other thing, though this could be purely my product ignorance. Does Nikon even have a wireless (radio) flash system yet, like Canon's RT? It did not, the last time I checked. The Nikon Commander, using infrared is HORRIBLE compared to RT. For starters, it won't work if you stick a flash in an umbrella-style softbox, like a Westcott Apollo, and those are the fastest to set up (and smallest when taken down) large softboxes. And secondly, it isn't compatible with third party strobes, at all (ie you can't mix a strobe with 2 Nikon flashes and control it remotely with Nikon Commander).

On Canon, the Yongnuo E3RX allows me to use the Canon RT system in conjunction with studio strobes, mixing strobes with RT flashes. I can either attach the E3RX directly to the strobe (PC cable), or I can a controller like the Skyport onto an E3RX.

Often, I will use a corded strobe for very large softboxes (48" - 80" ones) and just use flashes on the smaller ones (partly to keep from having a ton of power cables all over the place, and because I can't afford awesome battery powered strobes )

From a studio photography perspective, if you light your subject correctly, every camera body going back 10+ years, whether it's APSC or full frame will take amazing photos, and every shot that isn't properly lit will look terrible.

 

[ethanz]

Oh, one other thing, though this could be purely my product ignorance. Does Nikon even have a wireless (radio) flash system yet, like Canon's RT? It did not, the last time I checked. The Nikon Commander, using infrared is HORRIBLE compared to RT. For starters, it won't work if you stick a flash in an umbrella-style softbox, like a Westcott Apollo, and those are the fastest to set up (and smallest when taken down) large softboxes. And secondly, it isn't compatible with third party strobes, at all (ie you can't mix a strobe with 2 Nikon flashes and control it remotely with Nikon Commander).

I believe with the D5 you can control multiple SB flashes remotely right in the menu system of the camera.

 

[Talys]

Oh, one other thing, though this could be purely my product ignorance. Does Nikon even have a wireless (radio) flash system yet, like Canon's RT? It did not, the last time I checked. The Nikon Commander, using infrared is HORRIBLE compared to RT. For starters, it won't work if you stick a flash in an umbrella-style softbox, like a Westcott Apollo, and those are the fastest to set up (and smallest when taken down) large softboxes. And secondly, it isn't compatible with third party strobes, at all (ie you can't mix a strobe with 2 Nikon flashes and control it remotely with Nikon Commander).

I believe with the D5 you can control multiple SB flashes remotely right in the menu system of the camera.

Yes, that's the Nikon Commander system -- but it uses infrared, right? 2.4Ghz is a zillion times superior, since you don't need line of sight. Not only is it more reliable, but it actually works, when the flash is inside a softbox or otherwise completely obscured (like behind a subject, or 12 feet up and behind a 70 inch softbox.

 

[AlanF]

Arbitrage has just dug this up on the fredmiranda site. Arash Hazeghi posted on April 24
"Hi,

I did not find the combination of the Nikon D5 with the 600FL to give more keepers than the Canon 1DXII and 600II. It is important to realize that with any camera, Nikon or Canon, if you let the camera decide and choose one of the entire AF array the AF will latch to the BG when photographing challenging BIF against any kind of varied BG, so the "3D tracking" in Nikon is just as useless as "iTR" in Canon and I don't expect any such system to work for the type of photos I like to take. The most productive method for photographing BIF is to use the center AF expansion for either camera so that it is forced to focus where you want it to focus.

Initially the D5 seemed to hold focus better when the bird was changing direction but upon close inspection on my computer, many of those shots were not what I'd call tack sharp compared to my Canon files, they were slightly soft which makes it unacceptable to me. I also found that the Nikon couldn't quite keep up with the bird coming at you at high speed where as the 1DXII would often nail at least a couple of those shots (e.g. below).

The Nilkon system falls apart quickly when you throw in a TC, whereas the Canon system does not care if a TC is attached, many if not most of my photographs are taken with a TC. So as a bird photographer, if I were to start today, I would again choose Canon without thinking twice but I will always keep my options open, if Nikon get's the job done better I have no problem buying an entire Nikon system, but they are still far from there IMO.
"

 

[docsmith]

Ok...while most of this discussion has focused on Art, I've been wondering why Ari switched. That quote (and the picture if you follow the link below), this is just plain weird. Just a few months ago, he was talking based on experience that Canon was the same or better. If you read above, he also makes this quote "Usually switching systems (either side) is a waste of money and will not make you a better photographer."

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1505565/1#14155767

I actually came back to post on this to talk about lens/body combinations. If Ari was after the "Top 5%" then I have to think Canon having the 400 DO II, which he seemed to love, would be a distinct advantage.

Now, I am just hoping that Ari responds to the Fredmiranda thread. Something happened between August and January and I am real curious as to what it was.