Black Magic EF mount URSA 4.6K camera

[CanonGrunt]

Hi, I was looking at getting the 1D C as an upgrade from my 5D MK III as I heard it was better than the Black Magic Cinema Camera, but I came across their new Black Magic EF mount URSA 4.6K camera that is running for roughly the same price as the 1DC. It seems pretty awesome, but I don't know a lot about Black Magic's cameras. What are everyone's thoughts? Positives? Negatives? Off the top the ability to upgrade the sensor and mount in the future seems nice, and the C-Fast duel card set up is rather appealing. Plus lots of connection capabilities. Thoughts?

Any other cameras I should be looking at in this price range? It seems quite appealing to me. Also, to note, we would mostly be using this for independent film production / narrative dramas. The link to the camera is below.


https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicursa


Thank you so much.

 

[nc0b]

I have been reading about it since CES or NAB, I forget which. Sounds almost to good to be true, particularly for the money. 15 stop dynamic range. Is it shipping yet? The 4.6k seems fantastic for cropping down to true 4K or ultra HD at 3840 by 2160. Wonder who makes their sensors?

 

[Tinky]

I am a huge fan of BlackMagic, and I'm very glad they are there, pushing expe tations, I've used their capture cards, their concersion boxes and ancillaries for years and always found them to be reliable and cost effective.

The URSa was the first camera they built that actually looked like a viable production option...
- proper batter solution (the BMD lost all its form advantages if you wanted to use an external battery)
- option of evf
- great value, especially in miniform
- proper audio, not trs 1/4" jacks which precisely nobody uses for tv / movie audio.

There are a few caveats, I'll save the biggest to last...

- the first sensor, shared with the bmd 4k, was noisy abo e iso800.
- first production runs of all bmd cameras have been buggy, to be fair, they have been on the ball with fw upgrades
- thry hsve a yearly upgrade cycle, and their shipping times are usually optimistic.
- this means they'll have announced an even better ursa before your more expensive older one has arrived (possibly)

This is why, despite the relatively high entry price, people are actually buying canon c series camera:
- one box solutions, no mad rigs to mount xlr interfaces, batteries etc, it's all integrated
- reliability
- availability

I don't want to knock bmd as I think that they are really pushing the boundaries, I feel like they they should concentrate on walking the walk a bit more at times, I find them very frustrating, longer model lives, better production lead times, etc etc would all help no end.

If you need xlr audio then the 1dc starts to go down the same route as the bmds, where you need e tra boxes, extra devices, more power, different types of power...

and of course... magiclantern is probably never likely to run on a 1dc.

 

[crazyrunner33]

I'm also interested in the URSA Mini 4.6K, but am planning on waiting a year after they're in the field to find out about they're reliability and issues. The 1DC was a joke when it came out due to the price, but a used one at 5K dollars is actually reasonable considering the image it produces.

Personally, I would get the 1DC first because it produces a surprisingly decent image for a 4K compressed 8 bit format. It's a reliable camera that may have its quirks, but they are easily managed coming from filming on the 5D Mark III. If one of the other cameras from Blackmagic proves itself in the future, then the 1DC will serve as a phenomenal B camera to its replacement.

 

[rosaklebhead]

I don't want to knock bmd as I think that they are really pushing the boundaries, I feel like they they should concentrate on walking the walk a bit more at times, I find them very frustrating, longer model lives, better production lead times, etc etc would all help no end.

That's been BMD's major problem for awhile now. Make a lot of promises with regard to delivery dates but fail to deliver. Kind of reminds me of game developers who announce a title but is never completed past its shipping date.

HOWEVER... the products are fantastic once they get their act in gear. I attended the NYC event at the end of last month and got to handle the URSA mini (it was a prototype, alas. And still used the sensor they presented at NAB -- the one they said would be improved upon before the release date). And I have to say THAT camera has a ton of potential. But there were a lot of questions they could not answer like how would I be able to switch from rolling to global shutter (especially if you're in a run and gun sitch and you want to push the shutter speed to 120).

 

[syder]

You talk about cameras being 'better' but don't actually say what you're shooting.

The blackmagic cameras (at least the existing models) are unusable at high isos. If you're working in a studio under controlled lighting you're unlikely to care, but if you're intending to work in low light they aren't really an option.

Do you need 4K? Is this something your clients are asking for? If not some of the end of line c300 deals are very tempting, and that's a camera which had been a broadcast staple for the past few years.

If you do need 4K (and right now most people don't - but that may well change in a few years time, so there are questions about how long you see yourself with this investment) look at the Sony FS7. Or if you're on a tighter budget the A7rii.

Personally I'd rather have a video camera for video and a DSLR for stills than an all-in-one device (though as the 1dc is also a 1dx you do get a fantastic stills camera there). The ergonomics, xlr inputs etc make big difference to me. But then depending on what you shoot and how you shoot you might feel differently.

 

[Clownbaby]

Although the Ursa definitely has interesting specs, I agree about the criticisms of black magic. I'm way more interested in what the new Sony fs camera will offer. I currently have 2 c100s and will switch in a second to Sony if price is reasonable. I'm so done with canon and their overpriced underspeced cameras

 

[Orangutan]

I am a huge fan of BlackMagic, and I'm very glad they are there, pushing expe tations, I've used their capture cards, their concersion boxes and ancillaries for years and always found them to be reliable and cost effective.

<snip>

This is why, despite the relatively high entry price, people are actually buying canon c series camera:
- one box solutions, no mad rigs to mount xlr interfaces, batteries etc, it's all integrated
- reliability
- availability

I don't want to knock bmd as I think that they are really pushing the boundaries, I feel like they they should concentrate on walking the walk a bit more at times, I find them very frustrating, longer model lives, better production lead times, etc etc would all help no end.

Hmmm...this sounds like BM is cash-limited, and the aggressive announcements are to help with funding (either investment or loans). Are there any clues regarding their financial situation? On the other hand, Canon has the money to build a complete, reliable kit around whatever sensor they have ready. (this is all speculation, of course)

 

[Tinky]

I am a huge fan of BlackMagic, and I'm very glad they are there, pushing expe tations, I've used their capture cards, their concersion boxes and ancillaries for years and always found them to be reliable and cost effective.

<snip>

This is why, despite the relatively high entry price, people are actually buying canon c series camera:
- one box solutions, no mad rigs to mount xlr interfaces, batteries etc, it's all integrated
- reliability
- availability

I don't want to knock bmd as I think that they are really pushing the boundaries, I feel like they they should concentrate on walking the walk a bit more at times, I find them very frustrating, longer model lives, better production lead times, etc etc would all help no end.

Hmmm...this sounds like BM is cash-limited, and the aggressive announcements are to help with funding (either investment or loans). Are there any clues regarding their financial situation? On the other hand, Canon has the money to build a complete, reliable kit around whatever sensor they have ready. (this is all speculation, of course)

To be fair, Canon have to develop the sensor and data processing for this 'whatever sensor' as well.
The c cameras are not particularly high volume, I doubt very much Canon are selling them as loss leaders.

The BMDs might have the edge on DR, but the Canon can be used under many more lighting conditions and has the all i portant 50i / 60i codec which opens up the broadcast market, not sure about the ursa's but the bmd and bmd4k were progressive only.

People raised on rebels moan about the price of the c cameras, prople raised on ENG cameras can't quite believe what you get for your money..

The key thing is reliability. BMD make cameras you would love to use, Canon make cameras that you'd want to depend on for your living.

 

[syder]

[quote author=Tinky]

People raised on rebels moan about the price of the c cameras, prople raised on ENG cameras can't quite believe what you get for your money..

The key thing is reliability. BMD make cameras you would love to use, Canon make cameras that you'd want to depend on for your living.
[/quote]

+1

Canon have really targeted making cameras for television/documentary, where having a camera that works out of the box and is versatile and reliable is paramount. And where investing in equipment isn't really a problem. And compared to what people have been using for the majority of their careers the image quality is fantastic.

BMD have targeted enthusiast/indie filmmakers, who want ultimate image quality (RAW) and who are budget conscious. And that has come at the cost of versatility and reliability, and whilst they've been getting better, the lack of ND filters and max iso of 1600 are real issues. I'd love to use one if I had a lighting truck on call, but I don't.

The competition for Canon really isn't BMD because their cameras are focused so differently. Sony are the real alternative, and the FS7 does an awful lot for the money. That said, when i've edited and graded projects which have mixed footage from the FS7/FS700 and C100/300 the colours (especially skin tones) from the Canon C-cameras look better, even after spending a lot more time trying to improve the Sony footage.

 

[leGreve]

Apples and oranges....... two different systems for different purposes.

In general the 1DC is more run and gun minded, where the BMD 4.6K Ursa is completely minded for those with the time and ability to light their shots or for situations where the lighting is optimal for your needs.

I'm really looking forward to seeing more real life examples from the 4.6K camera as the sensor is better than the one in the 4K Ursa.

 

[cayenne]

I'm anxiously waiting for the Ursa Mini 4.6K.....will use it to compliment my 5D3 that I use a lot for video....

 

[krautland]

I have had the Ursa Mini 4.6k in my hands for 10 minutes and have spoken extensively to Blackmagic folks. I also have shooting experience with Red Dragon, Arri Alexa and of course the 5D III.

I think you mean the Ursa Mini. There are a bunch of differences between the Ursa Mini (there also is an Ursa but that is quite heavy and the Mini 4.6k has the same sensor) and Canons offerings. The first is obviously the form factor. Unlike the first C300 or the 1DC the Ursa has no loud buttons you can hear clicking when you're reviewing your footage and the form factor lets you actually carry it shoulder-mounted, which the clunky or even clutzy Canon bodies don't allow. The data throughput, logging and native RAW are also better on the Ursa. If you were at IAB or NAB you would have been stunned by how mobbed Blackmagic was by motion folks vs. Canons stands. I am really not thinking that especially the C300 will sell well given that it's the price of TWO Ursa Minis and doesn't do anything the Ursa Mini cannot do.

Blackmagics deal is putting previously out-of-reach motion technology into the hands of serious amateurs and the docu-crowd. They are learning with each new camera and with this one they have finally managed to do something that should be cause for some very tense meetings at Canon. The EF lenses, even though they are stepped down, as well as the Cinema lenses (especially when paired with a PL mount) are amazing but they are currently misstepping with their film camera offerings. We had a DSLR revolution in the film industry but the serious guys have pretty much all moved on.

That was a lot of very positive stuff about the Ursa Mini. Let me assure you there are knocks as well. The base ISO is 800, meaning you will need to carry a lot of lights in a lot of situations. See the other comments on high ISO noise. Then again, the 5D isn't exactly charming in low light either. I like the EF mount but wished it was easier (see Arri) to exchange mounts or upgrade the sensor. It records onto CFast cards, which are insanely expensive, and the optical viewfinder is extra and not included (they have a large touch screen). Still: USD 3,000 for the 4k model is nothing to sneeze at. Do note that the 4k sensor and the 4.6k sensor are vastly different. The 4.6k sensor has three stops DR more.

 

[cayenne]

I have had the Ursa Mini 4.6k in my hands for 10 minutes and have spoken extensively to Blackmagic folks. I also have shooting experience with Red Dragon, Arri Alexa and of course the 5D III.

I think you mean the Ursa Mini. There are a bunch of differences between the Ursa Mini (there also is an Ursa but that is quite heavy and the Mini 4.6k has the same sensor) and Canons offerings. The first is obviously the form factor. Unlike the first C300 or the 1DC the Ursa has no loud buttons you can hear clicking when you're reviewing your footage and the form factor lets you actually carry it shoulder-mounted, which the clunky or even clutzy Canon bodies don't allow. The data throughput, logging and native RAW are also better on the Ursa. If you were at IAB or NAB you would have been stunned by how mobbed Blackmagic was by motion folks vs. Canons stands. I am really not thinking that especially the C300 will sell well given that it's the price of TWO Ursa Minis and doesn't do anything the Ursa Mini cannot do.

Blackmagics deal is putting previously out-of-reach motion technology into the hands of serious amateurs and the docu-crowd. They are learning with each new camera and with this one they have finally managed to do something that should be cause for some very tense meetings at Canon. The EF lenses, even though they are stepped down, as well as the Cinema lenses (especially when paired with a PL mount) are amazing but they are currently misstepping with their film camera offerings. We had a DSLR revolution in the film industry but the serious guys have pretty much all moved on.

That was a lot of very positive stuff about the Ursa Mini. Let me assure you there are knocks as well. The base ISO is 800, meaning you will need to carry a lot of lights in a lot of situations. See the other comments on high ISO noise. Then again, the 5D isn't exactly charming in low light either. I like the EF mount but wished it was easier (see Arri) to exchange mounts or upgrade the sensor. It records onto CFast cards, which are insanely expensive, and the optical viewfinder is extra and not included (they have a large touch screen). Still: USD 3,000 for the 4k model is nothing to sneeze at. Do note that the 4k sensor and the 4.6k sensor are vastly different. The 4.6k sensor has three stops DR more.

How did you get yours?

Does this mean they are shipping now?


C

 

[krautland]

How did you get yours?

you did read the 10 minute part, right? NAB.