Both Canon and Nikon are in deep trouble after financial reports.

sfeinsmith

I'm New Here
Aug 23, 2016
22
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I wrote several posts, but so many morons backfired at me. I have over 50+ years of experience in photography. Now, I have solid proof here.


Both Nikon and Canon made ill-fated decisions to focus on the mirrorless system. They were failures with a lot of technical problems in both bodies and lenses. They stopped to sell Nikon and Canon DSLR along with both F and EF lenses. They want to channel their money into the mirrorless system development. They lost a lot of money and laid off so many innocent employees into the street. Thousands of professional photographers were not happy toward both Nikon and Canon included myself which I stopped buy new products for my work.

Both Canon and Nikon are in deep financial trouble and may lead end of the business by the bankrupt. This due to flipped by upper management people included CEO.

The mirrorless camera system was never a reliable hardware design. Error in hardware caused a lot of trouble-prone. The engineers decided to design new models instead of correct hardware design with current cameras and lenses. I do not know if they can resolve the entire situation, I hate to say, it seems to me it was DONE.
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
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Why would I lend any more credence to Alex Coleman's opinion the yours? Who is Alex Coleman and what knowledge does he have of the future plans, structure and road map for both Nikon and Canon?
 
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Aussie shooter

@brett.guy.photography
Dec 6, 2016
399
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Nikon may well be in trouble. Canon on rhe other hand are a massive company that makes far more tha cameras. Canon is safe. But they are, like everyone in situation of change.
 
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Bennymiata

EOS 6D MK II
I also tend to scratch my head about the lens decisions Canon has made.
Expensive pro lenses and less-than-pro bodies.
Not many people will buy a cheap body when they only have huge pro lenses to choose from.
I think Canon should bring out a real pro body and some nice comsumer lenses, otherwise their FF mirrorless ambitions may go to only reduce their profitability.
To me, Canon is on the right path with the M series (I have an M5 myself). Small light bodies and cheap light lenses, but the R series cameras and lenses don't really go together.
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
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Sony are downgrading their sales estimates now too, its a contracting market that is returning to historical norms.
 
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Durf

Picture Taker - Image Maker
Most, if not all of the camera companies have had a major selling streak these last few years or so and have saturated the population with bazillions of cameras. It's only logical that consumers would go in to a buying cooling off period. Besides, there is only a very low percentage of people that can actually afford to buy a new camera every year.....and also, all the high tech and miraculous feature hupla does get old after a while.

There's continuously buying gear and then there is actually using your gear....perhaps more people recently have stopped there constant buying of gear and are actually starting to accept and use what they have.

That's my opinion(s).....
 
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unfocused

EOS 5D SR
Jul 20, 2010
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www.mgordoncommunications.com
I wrote several posts, but so many morons backfired at me. I have over 50+ years of experience in photography. Now, I have solid proof here...
You wrote several posts, but only morons disagreed with you? And now you’ve found an opinion column that agrees with you? That’s some solid proof alright.

Actually solid proof usually requires some facts. I’m not seeing any here. Just a clickbait article with a deceptive headline over an opinion piece.
 

canonical

EOS 80D
Jul 3, 2019
103
84
I also tend to scratch my head about the lens decisions Canon has made. Expensive pro lenses and less-than-pro bodies. Not many people will buy a cheap body when they only have huge pro lenses to choose from.
...
I think Canon should bring out a real pro body and some nice comsumer lenses
...
To me, Canon is on the right path with the M series ... Small light bodies and cheap light lenses, but the R series cameras and lenses don't really go together.
agree with all of your above statements. Canon's R/RF early product lineup is currently "unmatched" for lenses vs. cameras. Apparently they figured they'd attract enough early adopters buying those new/exotic and expensive RF lenses despite EOS R body being lower end than competition. Not sure, if it works that way round. But it is only a temporary problem and not hard to resolve.

But with EOS RP body Canon did lay foundation for "affordable/prosumer" EOS R lineup. Now they need to bring some more modest, compact and affordable glass for it, and they sure will.

Greatest asset for Canon at the moment is their (market-leading) EOS M system. Nikon is in a much more difficult position: no mirrorfree crop system at all and got caught up in a difficult crop-system mount decision (Z larger than desirable, but 2 separate mounts Z/ZX also unwanted by their user base). it sure hurts their revenue and earnings stream considerably. Sony has been neglecting their APS-C lineup (no worthy A7000, E-mount lenses a very mixed bag and prices generally too high). Fuji limited to tiny market share because of their decision not to offer FF gear at all and to make their crop gear too hipsterite and expensive (compared to Canon M/EF-M).

Overall Canon is in *relatively best* position. The quicker they complete transition to "mirrorfree only" shedding the old DSLR baggage and consolidate and streamline their product lines, the better for them. There really are just 4 interesting market segments to take care of:

1. shirt pocket market segment: 1" G series. 3 models would be more than enough. 1 dirt cheap, 1 more sophicasted, 1 long tele.

2. jacket pocket ILC, low cost/compactsize: EOS M; again, 3 decent EOS M bodies would be sufficient: updated M100, M50 and M5 (less than usd/€999), plus limited lineup of compact EF-M lenses, add a few primes from time to time, but keep every item below usd/€ 500 - perfect!

3. "high end" FF: EOS R; again all it takes is 3 bodies: hi-rez "RS" (5DSr, A7R 3), action-beast "RX" (A9+) and universal-dream "EOS R Mk. II" (5D5, A7 3), plus some more extraordinary, expensive lenses, zooms and primes. Things are well under way, except bodies. Small market, high margin.

4. "affordable" FF: RP was a good start; affordable RF lenses need to come; pricepoint like 35/1.8 is too high for simple f/1.8 primes. RF 24-240 will sell nicely, especially once they kit it with an improved EOS RP Mk. II for USD/€ 1999; just don't repeat the insane "model explosion" they have in crop DSLRs with loads and loads of Rebels, xxDs, 7D. Keep things simple: really only 1 body needed: EOS RP Mk. II - below a grand.

Canon, "just do it". :)
execute well, stay market leader and watch all of m43 disappear, Pentax vanish, Nikon struggle and fall, Sony forever frustrated at around 20% market share and Fuji forever limited to tiny niches (X hipster, G).


TL;DR: Canon is in relatively best position of all imaging gear makers and if they heed my straightforward advice, they will remain king of the hill. :)
 
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YuengLinger

EOR R
Dec 20, 2012
2,422
476
Southeastern USA
Too many businesses tried to keep doing business as usual while the world rapidly changed around them. Here in the USA, shopping malls and their flagship stores are nearing the endangered list; toy stores, independent breakfast restaurants, bookstores, cable and satellite TV, banks, hardware stores are struggling or completely gone...

I scratched my head when Canon released the humble R with some massive lenses. But at least Canon seem to have hope, and at least they are trying new approaches. They don't have many competitors left, and the competitors themselves are struggling to find a business model that works.

I don't think volume sales are the path to success for camera companies. It makes sense that Canon sees high end lenses that cost more but produce significantly better images (when used by good photographers) than cheap alternatives as a way to make a profit. Canon has to make more money per unit now, as the market for casual snapshots has been so thoroughly conquered by the smartphones people carry everywhere.

And if Canon doesn't think it's urgent to put out a dual card, crop free, 10 fps FF mirrorless camera in 2019, but would rather go with more affordable, modest bodies first, while signaling to fanatical photographers that they are building a great catalog of lenses for the Rf mount, all we can do is hope zigging when others zag works out for them.
 
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canonical

EOS 80D
Jul 3, 2019
103
84
I don't think volume sales are the path to success for camera companies. It makes sense that Canon sees high end lenses that cost more but produce significantly better images (when used by good photographers) than cheap alternatives as a way to make a profit.
They need "consumer/mass market products". The "hi-end only" route leads directly into extinction. See HiFi/audio industry. They did exactly the same: always "higher end" gear, ludicrous prices, golden cables, everything well beyond the point where normal customers could hear any difference or have real benefits. Actually often combined with horrible user interface. Result: people are listing to heavily compressed music on low-end (mobile) devices.

Same thing will happen if Canon, Nikon, Sony focus on cameras north of 3k and lenses well above 1k (primes) and well above 2k (zooms) per click. It is the single reason, why Fuji is limited to such a miniscule market share. There are people who can afford it, but they are not too many. Very small niche. Even if they manage to position their tech gear as "lifestyle item for the rich & famous", the market segment is tiny. It can only support 1 Leica company.

Luckily Canon understands this and offers a very solid and affordable EOS M system, affordable Powershot G cameras and an EOS RP as well. :)
 

koenkooi

EOS 7D MK II
Feb 25, 2015
425
251
[..]

I don't think volume sales are the path to success for camera companies. It makes sense that Canon sees high end lenses that cost more but produce significantly better images (when used by good photographers) than cheap alternatives as a way to make a profit. Canon has to make more money per unit now, as the market for casual snapshots has been so thoroughly conquered by the smartphones people carry everywhere.
[..]
I would like Canon to make sharing photo's a lot easier. When I'm away on a trip and want to share a photo, it is easier to take a similar photo with my phone or worse, take a photo of the back screen and send that. The camera connect app does a decent job, but it still requires a lot of manual actions to get a photo onto my phone (or interwebs). A workaround would be to use the backup feature where the camera sends a jpeg of each and every picture to my phone, but that requires more batteries and powerbanks than I care for.

When I'm at home, it's a bit easier, the cameras will connect to my wifi instead of being an accesspoint, so I don't have to do the "connect to camera wifi, disconnect, reconnect to hotel/coffee place wifi" dance.

Also, the physical 'wifi' button on my M50 saves a bunch of tedious menu travel, I really wish my RP had one as well.

If Canon can do that, it might lure back a few snapshot people. I know I would use my M more often.
 

canonical

EOS 80D
Jul 3, 2019
103
84
Also, the physical 'wifi' button on my M50 saves a bunch of tedious menu travel, I really wish my RP had one as well.
It should have been a standard feature on each and every Canon camera ever since about 2012. Instead of the infamous DIRECT PRINT button :poop: or bulky WLAN bricks :poop: at USD/€ 899 a piece, camera-specific of course, to be re-purchased with every new camera body. :rolleyes:

Lack of easy to use wireless communication has been the biggest mistake camera makers made. Now they pay the price for it. Smartphones might not have eaten up a good portion of their busines as quickly and easily.

This really sums up :
When I'm away on a trip and want to share a photo, it is easier to take a similar photo with my phone or worse, take a photo of the back screen and send that.
 
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YuengLinger

EOR R
Dec 20, 2012
2,422
476
Southeastern USA
Why argue with "morons"? Where's the joy?

And fstoppers seems to be written these days mostly by pajama bloggers who know or care little about photography.

Cheers! Enjoy the last days of summer! Can't believe the kids head back to school next week! Whoo hoo!
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
3,693
1,276
Irving, Texas
I wrote several posts, but so many morons backfired at me. I have over 50+ years of experience in photography. Now, I have solid proof here.


Both Nikon and Canon made ill-fated decisions to focus on the mirrorless system. They were failures with a lot of technical problems in both bodies and lenses. They stopped to sell Nikon and Canon DSLR along with both F and EF lenses. They want to channel their money into the mirrorless system development. They lost a lot of money and laid off so many innocent employees into the street. Thousands of professional photographers were not happy toward both Nikon and Canon included myself which I stopped buy new products for my work.

Both Canon and Nikon are in deep financial trouble and may lead end of the business by the bankrupt. This due to flipped by upper management people included CEO.

The mirrorless camera system was never a reliable hardware design. Error in hardware caused a lot of trouble-prone. The engineers decided to design new models instead of correct hardware design with current cameras and lenses. I do not know if they can resolve the entire situation, I hate to say, it seems to me it was DONE.
I guess some people don't know that R&D costs can be written off against profit for tax advantages. Canon is gaining market share in a heavily contracting market while Sony is losing it. As far as their current mirrorless line, I love the R. The higher end models will be even better. Also, I believe I read somewhere that Canon's M line is the best selling mirrorless camera in Japan. So, really, you shouldn't be calling other people morons because they don't see any relevance or real knowledge in your posts. The "Moron" moniker is pointed in the wrong direction in my opinion. If you don't want to buy anymore gear, that's your prerogative. But guess what? many of us are and are very happy with it. Nobody here cares whether you buy or don't.

Also, the laying off of people is a direct result of the contracting market. Products have their ups and downs. People don't buy when they are happy with what they already have, or they've decided a smart phone makes more sense to them. What do you expect Canon to do? Keep people on the payroll when there is not enough work for them? Puleeze! I would expect a self proclaimed "Pro" would have more business sense than that.

So once again we have a new member who signed up just to say, "Canon is doomed!" Yet never mentions Sony's tiny share of the market, which will get even smaller as Canon takes over in a FF mirrorless market the company just entered last fall.
 
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CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
3,693
1,276
Irving, Texas
I’d bet most people who post here have 0 understanding of Japanese tax law. I know I’m in that camp!
I don't know anything about their tax law either, but this link says that there are tax credits for R&D. You'll have to scroll down and find Japan. Even foreign companies operating in Japan can get the credits. So, unless I misunderstand, if Canon spends a large amount of money on R&D, the credits effectively offset profits to an extent. The credit encourages the company to spend on R&D. Canon spending money on R&D has an impact on profit because that $ is taken from what would otherwise be profit. The tax credits are given to encourage businesses to spend $ on R&D for the benefit of corporate survival in changing markets, and the benefit of the workforce. More people working 9-5 = more revenue to the government. I am sure there is a CPA or accountant here who could clarify it. I have enough trouble understanding our own tax law. ;) Of course there are weirdos in this world that think any kind of profit is evil.

Capture.JPG
 
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CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
3,693
1,276
Irving, Texas
Canon's R/RF early product lineup is currently "unmatched" for lenses vs. cameras. Apparently they figured they'd attract enough early adopters buying those new/exotic and expensive RF lenses despite EOS R body being lower end than competition. Not sure, if it works that way round. But it is only a temporary problem and not hard to resolve.
Amazing. If an EF 28-70mm f/2, 85mmf/1.2, or 50mm f/1.2 had been created for the EF DSLRs, absolutely nobody would say it was too good for an 80D, 7D Mark II, 6D Mark II, 5D Mark IV ( which the R matches very well, and even surpasses in several ways), or the 1DX Mark II. But how could you possibly know this? You own none of it (RP, R, or RF lenses). You haven't used any of it. Yet you constantly vomit up your uninformed prognostications and the idea that maybe you should be steering the helm of Canon. Your opinion is that the Sony A7r III is a better camera than the R, I presume. My opinion is the opposite as a stills shooter... especially from an ergonomics point of view, a stupidly designed tilt screen, and no DPAF.

if they heed my straightforward advice, they will remain king of the hill. :)
I can remember (AvTvM, 4fun, mirage, canonical, etc) when you were spouting that a new FF mirrorless system would be smaller and lighter and less expensive than the EF DSLR lines and that that move would attract millions of new customers (all your friends). You said millions were waiting in the wings for the system YOU said Canon needed to make. Canon didn't heed your advice, they remain king of the hill, and you were wrong at every turn. Incredibly wrong. Is that why you continually change your nick? Hoping nobody will recognize you as the false prophet you are? That they won't be able to retrace your history of being wrong?

BTW: I doubt anyone at Canon reads your advice, much less would consider heeding it. You consider yourself to be far more knowledgeable and important than you are. Maybe if you changed your next nick to Jim Jones you'd be able to get everyone to drink the Kool Aid you keep trying to serve up. Snake Oil would be another idea for your next nick. Or Flat Earth? Or that Tesla guy, Elon Musk?

You are probably a very nice guy in real life. I believe that with every fiber of my being, but my God, man! Get hold of yourself!

But hey, I have a smaller lighter and less expensive M4/3 Olympus you might be interested in. Excellent camera for guys with tiny hands, just like a FF Sony.
 
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3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
3,077
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I scratched my head when Canon released the humble R with some massive lenses.
I’ve remarked this before:

Throughout most of photography’s history, a common belief has been that lenses matter far more than the bodies they attach to. Has that sentiment changed in the last year? If so, why? I haven’t witnessed a quantum leap in camera such that I can even begin to guess which body was used by looking at photos. Good lenses on the other hand still tend to manifest in photos.

I tend to remain in the earlier camp, with one minor change: lights/modifiers (when appropriate) are more important than lenses, and lenses are far more important than bodies. Also, IMO, none of the camera makers offer adequate lighting for their systems (unless one counts Hasselblad’s partnership with Broncolor).
 
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