Breaking down the latest Canon gear to appear for certification

Seems to be selling pretty well for an obsolete camera.
This is the kind of brainwashed stuff that Canon can NOT afford right now. Please, don't make excuses or flawed arguments for Canon, when what they really need is the encouragement to do better.

As someone who reviews camera gear for a living, this is my biggest gripe with Canon fans- stop making excuses for the brand. You're not doing them any favors by going on "troll patrol". It only puts the brand at risk of getting out of touch with what they might actually be facing.

Canon needs to know when they're being uncompetitive. They don't need a pat on the back when they produce a camera that lacks numerous key competitive features which a competitor is putting out.

The 6D2 should have had both 5-series AF, and dual SD card slots, period, to compete better with the Nikon D750, and now the A7iii. And don't tell me how that would cannibalize 5-series sales. Volume and profit margins can be worked out, and sometimes the long-term goal of customer satisfaction is more important than a few quarterly figures.

Canon needs to better serve this particular ~$2K market because it is a very important one right now. The beginner camera market is easy; it's just sales pitches and a few "look at all thosee white lenses the pros are using!" ad campaigns. The pro market is easy too; Canon has (almost) always offered solid products that pros can rely on. But at this new "prosumer" price point, Canon may seriously hurt themselves if a 6Dmk3 or an EOS R mk2 don't step up their spec sheets. And making excuses for Canon doesn't help their chances of stepping up their game. If you love the brand so much, you should be the most critical of them when they make a blunder.

I'm actually about to publish my full review of the EOS R, and to be honest I'm probably more excited about this camera than every other review or initial report that I've read so far. It's a truly awesome camera. But I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't scold Canon for thinking they can get away with leaving out certain specs and assuming ALL serious photographers will just calmly wait and spend an extra $1K for the next-up model in 6-12 months.
 

jolyonralph

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Aug 25, 2015
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As someone who reviews camera gear for a living, this is my biggest gripe with Canon fans- stop making excuses for the brand. You're not doing them any favors by going on "troll patrol". It only puts the brand at risk of getting out of touch with what they might actually be facing.

Canon needs to know when they're being uncompetitive. They don't need a pat on the back when they produce a camera that lacks numerous key competitive features which a competitor is putting out.
Canon doesn't need anyone to tell them when they're being uncompetitive. They have their sales figures and market intelligence to know that.

I'm not defending Canon. I don't think the 6DII is an inspiring camera and it's not something I would buy myself. But the reality is that Canon are in the game to make money, and if they can make as much profit out of something with a lower spec than the competition because they're being far more conservative in feature upgrades, then that's what they'll do.

Most people upgrading to full-frame have come through APS-C, and at that point they're far more than likely to stick with the brand they are used to, so Canon don't have to worry too much.

I don't like it, and I'm not defending it, but I'm a realist.

The point is, that the 6D is disappointing to many of us, it's disappointing to reviewers, but it IS selling well. Which goes to show that Canon know their market far better than any of us do, and trying to give them advice is pretty stupid.
 
Likes: gwooding
Oct 31, 2016
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It's the exact same pixel count as the 6D Mark II, so not very likely. And things like IBIS, redesigning the body, adding two card slots etc. are farther away when there are more lenses available.
It's like what bks54 said, A7III & A9 has the same mpx yet they are different tier.

There were rumored of 2 FF mirrorless camera in the works for sometime now. Only 1 was released. They could have made 2 version of the camera for 2 different market in the beginning - bigger body, 2 card slot, IBIS, etc. Obviously less complicated camera could have release first while they still working some kinks out or waiting for more lens to be made available (again we do know how long they have developing).

The two RF lens 24-70 2.8 & 70-200 2.8 also signal they mean business. They aren't saving that to announce with a Canon 6D II equivalent camera
 
Oct 31, 2016
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This is the kind of brainwashed stuff that Canon can NOT afford right now. Please, don't make excuses or flawed arguments for Canon, when what they really need is the encouragement to do better.

As someone who reviews camera gear for a living, this is my biggest gripe with Canon fans- stop making excuses for the brand. You're not doing them any favors by going on "troll patrol". It only puts the brand at risk of getting out of touch with what they might actually be facing.

Canon needs to know when they're being uncompetitive. They don't need a pat on the back when they produce a camera that lacks numerous key competitive features which a competitor is putting out.

The 6D2 should have had both 5-series AF, and dual SD card slots, period, to compete better with the Nikon D750, and now the A7iii. And don't tell me how that would cannibalize 5-series sales. Volume and profit margins can be worked out, and sometimes the long-term goal of customer satisfaction is more important than a few quarterly figures.

Canon needs to better serve this particular ~$2K market because it is a very important one right now. The beginner camera market is easy; it's just sales pitches and a few "look at all thosee white lenses the pros are using!" ad campaigns. The pro market is easy too; Canon has (almost) always offered solid products that pros can rely on. But at this new "prosumer" price point, Canon may seriously hurt themselves if a 6Dmk3 or an EOS R mk2 don't step up their spec sheets. And making excuses for Canon doesn't help their chances of stepping up their game. If you love the brand so much, you should be the most critical of them when they make a blunder.

I'm actually about to publish my full review of the EOS R, and to be honest I'm probably more excited about this camera than every other review or initial report that I've read so far. It's a truly awesome camera. But I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't scold Canon for thinking they can get away with leaving out certain specs and assuming ALL serious photographers will just calmly wait and spend an extra $1K for the next-up model in 6-12 months.
Thanks Matthew. When and where can we expect the review. I wish the continuous eyeAF firmware is released before you finish the review. That definitely deserve a closer look.

I completely with all you said. Canon has been dragging their feet for a long time. There are alot of players in the game now and if they don't step up, there are so many alternative especially if you can use adapted lens. Once Sony figure out the ergonomic issues and put that 5.6 million EVF with high refresh rate, it's enough for me to reconsider Sony.
 
...if they can make as much profit out of something with a lower spec than the competition because they're being far more conservative in feature upgrades, then that's what they'll do...
I don't think you're understanding how the industry works, and how these large corporations stay in-touch with their user base. Ironically, "trying to give them advice" is (one of) my job(s), and I can confirm that they DO listen when the gear review industry offers (even harsh) feedback, even when it is just a bunch of camera geeks whining about a spec sheet. (Although that is personally NOT how I roll.)

Being "in the game to make money" has many factors that play into it, and sometimes the long-term survival must be considered more valuable than the short-term sales figures of one or two cameras.

The fact is, Canon is losing potential buyers left and right to the Sony A7-series lineup, and that's not up for debate. 6D2 sales may be great, but that's not a safe long-term projection. Your own signature lists one Sony body which debuted at >$3K, even. Canon could have instead sold you a 5DsR plus a MILC version of that camera, no? And, at this point, I'm losing count of how many times I'm seeing new photographers asking online about which camera is the best, and others will suggest either getting an A7iii, a D750, or skipping the 6D2 altogether and getting a used 6D, "if all you care about is image quality and not the articulated/touchscreen LCD..." No exaggeration, I've seen that exact advice given at least a hundred times.

I don't profess to be an expert market analyst, just a keen observer of the last ~20 years worth of market trends and competitive shifts...
 
Likes: bks54
Aug 26, 2015
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It's like what bks54 said, A7III & A9 has the same mpx yet they are different tier.

There were rumored of 2 FF mirrorless camera in the works for sometime now. Only 1 was released. They could have made 2 version of the camera for 2 different market in the beginning - bigger body, 2 card slot, IBIS, etc. Obviously less complicated camera could have release first while they still working some kinks out or waiting for more lens to be made available (again we do know how long they have developing).

The two RF lens 24-70 2.8 & 70-200 2.8 also signal they mean business. They aren't saving that to announce with a Canon 6D II equivalent camera
The model structure is actually fairly similar to Nikon, which released the two models at the same time(with a delayed availability for the Z6), so the other one that's currently missing is the cheaper one It is also leaked that the multi-function bar will be missing from the other EOS R model, makes sense since the 6D II is also simpler than the 5D IV.

The technology to do a higher-end model is just isn't quite there yet for Canon and Nikon, the best it can realistically happen is a mirrorless 1DX II derivative. Same for Nikon, there will be higher-end models, just not so suddenly. Same for IBIS, it will come of course at some point, but it will take some time, since it will be a first for Canon.
Releasing Pro lenses in the meantime will not hurt anybody, they will work perfectly well with the EOS R for the time being.
 
Thanks Matthew. When and where can we expect the review. I wish the continuous eyeAF firmware is released before you finish the review. That definitely deserve a closer look.

I completely with all you said. Canon has been dragging their feet for a long time. There are alot of players in the game now and if they don't step up, there are so many alternative especially if you can use adapted lens. Once Sony figure out the ergonomic issues and put that 5.6 million EVF with high refresh rate, it's enough for me to reconsider Sony.
It will be on SLR Lounge.

I didn't miss eye AF in Servo mode, because I'm usually not using Servo to focus that closely on subjects, I do just fine with One-Shot even with f/1.2. I'm serious man, that new 50 RF does. not. miss. Every missed shot I have is 100% sloppy technique on my part, haha.

As a wedding & portrait shooter, AF reliability is one of my top priorities, and the bottom line is that Canon has proven that the RF system will deliver. I can't wait for their >$3K version of this camera, hopefully with both IBIS and dual card slots. But as I said I would be failing to do my job if I didn't scold Canon for leaving those two features out of their ~$2K camera in today's market. The EOS R itself is good enough in general that it would have been a complete shut-out of "Sony ship-jumping" that could have resulted in much bigger profits (I suspect) for Canon than any lost sales of a >$3K version of the camera. Again, there's plenty of ways to differentiate camera classes. Put a few more FPS, a giant buffer, and SD+CFast in the >$3K camera. Put a few more flaghsip style ergonomic controls, maybe. But IBIS and dual SD card slots are par for the ~$2K camera market, at this point. Heck, we've had dual SD for over 6 years in ~$2K Nikon DSLRs!) (And yes, I'm giving Nikon the same level of shame for going with a single XQD slot in their Z-series; although the Z6 with its un-cropped 4K video and IBIS is a much more attractive option, still.)
 
Likes: bokehmon22
Aug 30, 2018
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The model structure is actually fairly similar to Nikon, which released the two models at the same time(with a delayed availability for the Z6), so the other one that's currently missing is the cheaper one It is also leaked that the multi-function bar will be missing from the other EOS R model, makes sense since the 6D II is also simpler than the 5D IV.

The technology to do a higher-end model is just isn't quite there yet for Canon and Nikon, the best it can realistically happen is a mirrorless 1DX II derivative. Same for Nikon, there will be higher-end models, just not so suddenly. Same for IBIS, it will come of course at some point, but it will take some time, since it will be a first for Canon.
Releasing Pro lenses in the meantime will not hurt anybody, they will work perfectly well with the EOS R for the time being.
How on earth would a mirrorless 1DXII derivative be anything other than high-end? And where did you hear a leak about the multi-function bar being missing?
 
Aug 26, 2015
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How on earth would a mirrorless 1DXII derivative be anything other than high-end? And where did you hear a leak about the multi-function bar being missing?
Yep, back to my original observation, we can predict that the next camera is not going to use a 1DXII-like sensor, so it is probably not the next model to be released...
 

jolyonralph

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Aug 25, 2015
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The fact is, Canon is losing potential buyers left and right to the Sony A7-series lineup, and that's not up for debate. 6D2 sales may be great, but that's not a safe long-term projection. Your own signature lists one Sony body which debuted at >$3K, even. Canon could have instead sold you a 5DsR plus a MILC version of that camera, no?
They didn't have the sensor tech or capabilities to produce an A7RII type camera then, they don't even now. Thrashing Canon for not being able to compete when they know absolutely well that they can't compete is of course part of your job, but all I'm saying is I understand their motives for producing a less-than remarkable 6DII.


ps. Sony's entry into the Camera market reminds me of the shakeup in the games console market in the 90s. Everyone thought that Sega and Nintendo were invincible. Where's Sega now?
 
Yep, back to my original observation, we can predict that the next camera is not going to use a 1DXII-like sensor, so it is probably not the next model to be released...
In my direct conversations with Canon, the impression I've gotten is that indeed, everything from technology to ergonomics needs to be truly flawless before a pro can trust it. That's just the way it goes when you're making a camera for someone shooting Olympic sports etc.

So, the EOS R is their first step because it's very likely to be extremely popular despite its 2-3 unfortunate spec sheet omissions. And getting a camera into the most hands, getting the most possible feedback, is the fastest way to get to a "perfect" 1-series RF body.

I too was surprised that we didn't see two bodies at the same time, one ~30 MP and one ~60 MP. But having worked with the EOS R for a few weeks now, I can see that while it's a delight to use, there are still both ergonomic and tech-related quirks to be improved on before it can be called a serious pro body.
 
They didn't have the sensor tech or capabilities to produce an A7RII type camera then, they don't even now. Thrashing Canon for not being able to compete when they know absolutely well that they can't compete is of course part of your job, but all I'm saying is I understand their motives for producing a less-than remarkable 6DII.


ps. Sony's entry into the Camera market reminds me of the shakeup in the games console market in the 90s. Everyone thought that Sega and Nintendo were invincible. Where's Sega now?
I guess Sega was the Myspace of the game console world.

BTW, don't forget one of the most popular systems of all, the *SONY* Playstation. ;-) :p Proof that they know how to both shake up a market AND survive long-term, indeed...
 
Likes: bokehmon22
Aug 30, 2018
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Yep, back to my original observation, we can predict that the next camera is not going to use a 1DXII-like sensor, so it is probably not the next model to be released...
I was hoping that you would actually provide some evidence for your original observation. The rumored EOS Rx or whatever will supposedly have a 26 mp sensor. My point is that such a sensor "size" could arguably be appropriate for higher-speed, higher-spec camera, and that the R is positioned in the lower tier of Canon FF cameras if you look at its somewhat constrained feature set and price. I'm still convinced that they next R will be a more expensive, higher-spec release.
 
Likes: bokehmon22
Aug 26, 2015
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I was hoping that you would actually provide some evidence for your original observation. The rumored EOS Rx or whatever will supposedly have a 26 mp sensor. My point is that such a sensor "size" could arguably be appropriate for higher-speed, higher-spec camera, and that the R is positioned in the lower tier of Canon FF cameras if you look at its somewhat constrained feature set and price. I'm still convinced that they next R will be a more expensive, higher-spec release.
The information is there for everyone, the difference is (once again) using common sense based on the facts that are already known, and getting abused for it (even though there are many other sites, which came to the exact same conclusions based on the same information...)
 
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The information is there for everyone, the difference is (once again) using common sense based on the facts that are already known, and getting abused for it (even though there are many other sites, which came to the exact same conclusions based on the same information...)
Peace brother. Disagreement is not abuse.
 
I was hoping that you would actually provide some evidence for your original observation. The rumored EOS Rx or whatever will supposedly have a 26 mp sensor. My point is that such a sensor "size" could arguably be appropriate for higher-speed, higher-spec camera, and that the R is positioned in the lower tier of Canon FF cameras if you look at its somewhat constrained feature set and price. I'm still convinced that they next R will be a more expensive, higher-spec release.
Again I have no official confirmation, but the STRONG hint at the official EOS R press release, from the mouths of Canon themselves, was that the next (imminent, even) RF system camera is going to be an "s/R" style camera, not an "X/1" style camera. I think this is a hint that we can take to the bank.
 
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Again I have no official confirmation, but the STRONG hint at the official EOS R press release, from the mouths of Canon themselves, was that the next (imminent, even) RF system camera is going to be an "s/R" style camera, not an "X/1" style camera. I think this is a hint that we can take to the bank.
Yes, I agree with this, but if true then either the leaked certification information omits this s/R style camera or the leaked specs for the K433 (26 mp) are wrong.

BTW, your web sites are inspirational.
 
Yes, I agree with this, but if true then either the leaked certification information omits this s/R style camera or the leaked specs for the K433 (26 mp) are wrong.

BTW, your web sites are inspirational.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.

There was ALSO the hint that the EOS R would (eventually) get a "younger sibling", too. So maybe Canon has a ~$1499 version of the EOS R up their sleeves, with leftover 6D2 sensors going into that camera.
If their "classic" 18 MP APS-C sensor is any indicator, Canon has no qualms about re-using a half-decent sensor over and over again, in lower-tier bodies.
 
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I guess we'll have to wait and see.

There was ALSO the hint that the EOS R would (eventually) get a "younger sibling", too. So maybe Canon has a ~$1499 version of the EOS R up their sleeves, with leftover 6D2 sensors going into that camera.
If their "classic" 18 MP APS-C sensor is any indicator, Canon has no qualms about re-using a half-decent sensor over and over again, in lower-tier bodies.
You didn't just call the 6D2 sensor "half-decent" did you? :)
 
Aug 21, 2018
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What exactly would 6DII type mirrorless camera have?
Cropped 4K or no 4K
8 fps more or LESS
My thought is that if the bring out 2 FF mirrorless cameras Q1 or Q2 next year one with one may well have a 26 mp while being $1599 or $1699 and the other that 50 mp while being $3000 or $4000.