Canon’s Official Full Frame Mirrorless Announcement Will Come After Photokina [CR2]

neuroanatomist

Spends too much time on this forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,312
354
#21
Let me explain. No, there is too much…let me sum up.

Canon designs and sells cameras and lenses that meet the needs of customers. Real customers who buy cameras and lenses. They don't make it a priority to add features that fuel the wet dreams of forum dwellers.

So, the forum dwellers will continue whining and complaining, real customers will continue buying cameras and lenses from Canon, and Canon will continue to dominate the ILC market.
 
Feb 21, 2013
25
4
#22
I bought Canon's original D30 the minute it was available. Subsequently I have had the 10D, 5D, and 6D. So I have witnessed and participated in Canon's glacial development cycles and customer-antagonizing feature decisions first hand. I have stuck with Canon because I felt overall their end product was still the best available for my needs.

In fact, I never upgrade until I can identify a shortcoming of my current camera that is preventing me from advancing my technique. I have been at that point for a couple of years with my 6D. The 6D2 did not address the areas of improvement I needed. Neither does the 5DIV. The painful realization is, there is not one single Canon camera that does meet all my particular needs.

(Disclaimer: my needs are not yours, so please spare me argumentation on that point. I am happy for everyone completely satisfied with their Canon camera and I am not going to second-guess your needs or satisfaction. So don't second-guess mine!)

On the heels of my long-building disgruntlement with Canon, has arrived the extremely affordable Sony A7III which is very nearly the camera I would spec for myself. Coupled with the fact that Sony is actively fleshing out their lens line-up, that third-party lens support for Sony is coming on strong, and there are now two high-quality EF lens adapters available, all barriers for me switching to Sony are removed. All I have to do is pull the trigger and go.

From my perspective, Canon is fiddling around while Rome burns,. This delay, while very typical of Canon, ignores the fact that this time, things are different. There is very serious competition that is meeting Canon in all full-frame market segments, from entry level to high-res to sports. I suspect whatever mirrorless full frame cameras Canon announces will have been subjected to Canon's usual market-segmentation analysis and rife with "camera crippling" decisions. They are sticking with all their other scripts and I see no reason they won't stick to that script too!

Bottom line for me, it's just about time to cut opportunity costs associated with remaining a Canon customer, and decamp to Sony.
 
Likes: snappy604
#23
I Canon has something near ready for production then it is to late to see and think about mount. If they are in stage to make a decision about the mount then we cannot expect anything within a year or more.
Production in reality is really slow process. Yes they can produce 10k units per week, but to get to that is damn long process.
Broadly I fully agree - *IF* a new mirrorless system is within a year of launch, the design will be pretty much locked down.
But there are still things which Canon could learn from a Nikon launch - such as how how to communicate the value proposition to your core customers.
Plus, we don't know how far out Canon's offerings are at the moment, or what they are planning - perhaps they have two cameras - one with an EF mount and one with a new mount both ready and waiting for the green button?
 
Jun 22, 2017
188
12
New Zealand
#26
Let me explain. No, there is too much…let me sum up.

Canon designs and sells cameras and lenses that meet the needs of customers. Real customers who buy cameras and lenses. They don't make it a priority to add features that fuel the wet dreams of forum dwellers.

So, the forum dwellers will continue whining and complaining, real customers will continue buying cameras and lenses from Canon, and Canon will continue to dominate the ILC market.
I wouldn't rule out the various forum dwellers (over the many websites) as being a reasonable chunk of buyers of the extra/more expensive bodies and lenses.
I know I haven't bought any Canon bodies or lenses for a few years as I don't feel that the Canon camera have what I want. I have bought other brands though, which have fit the bill, so at least in my case, Canon lost a customer for at least a new body, and likely a new lens

I could be wrong, and it might just be my particular case, but I feel those extra features often do help with the overall potential of the camera
 
Likes: snappy604

CanonFanBoy

Bipolar. When it is happening I don't realize it.
Jan 28, 2015
2,484
136
Irving, Texas
#27
I guess Canon is waiting to see what Nikon does - and more importantly how people react to it - > with particular emphasis to how Nikon users react to the news of a new lens mount.

But why wait untill after the major trade show to make a big announcement (or teaser, or whatever they be planning)? "before Photokina" does not rule out "During Photokina".
Why? These things are not done in a couple months time. Canon won't decide not to use a particular mount based on what Nikon users think when they see what they get.
 
Likes: pj1974

CanonFanBoy

Bipolar. When it is happening I don't realize it.
Jan 28, 2015
2,484
136
Irving, Texas
#28
The more I hang around here the more I think there ought to be a Prozac giveaway. I am so very happy with my Canon gear that I couldn't think of switching. AF, speed, handling, colors, etc., are all so nice. While it would be nice to upgrade to the 5D IV, I have decided to wait on a possible 5D V simply for $ reasons. Mirrorless really doesn't interest me right now, but if anyone comes up with something that might make me change my mind I have to think Canon will. I wish I could use the "F" word here, but just %*&#@*! switch! So depressing. I'm also a member of a Pentax forum and those folks don't get down into the doldrums like so many do here.

Yup. There's going to be lots of complaining when Canon releases it's mirrorless FF camera, but the cameras will work and work well. They really will be weather sealed if Canon says they are, they won't overheat, and the menu system will be better than anyone else's. The lenses will be superior (we already have them), and I can't wait to see what Canon puts out there. Why is it that some of you always seem to have a cloud of gloom hanging over your heads? If that translates to the other areas of your lives, then wow, it sucks to be you.
 

dak723

EOS Rebel T7i
Oct 26, 2013
937
76
#29
It is amazing how lucky Canon is. Despite having crappiest mirrorless cameras and world's worst native mirrorless lens line up they are #1 in mirrorless camera by sales. Look at Fuji's fate despite having kick ass cameras and awesome lenses they were nowhere in a position to be even counted in the percentage market share scale. Obviously Canon's Internet Defense Forces (CIDF) will argue Canon is the market leader, they know everything better than the photographers and there is data to prove. So no need for Canon to innovate for next 10 years. My opinion is unless Canon butt is in fire they will not move and that is not happening at all. No matter how disappointing their products are people still buying in to that.
Just wondering if you have actually tried various mirrorless cameras before making your pronouncement. Or is it just the usual anti-Canon crap that is spewed out endlessly by the trolls?

Having owned Sony, Olympus and Canon mirrorless, I would consider the Canon M5 to be - by far - the best value and best mirrorless camera for the average camera buyer. If you are a pro, then no, the lens lineup may leave you wanting, but for an enthusiast or average camera user it is excellent. The lenses cover all the focal lengths except the longer zooms that birders and sports/wildlife folks may want, but the quality of the lenses for their price is way beyond what anyone else can offer. I really like my Olympus m4/3rds mirrorless, but if I want the best quality shot, I use the M5. I know color is subjective, but Canon still has the best - and one reason why I wouldn't even consider Sony again. Just wondering what exactly you think is so "crappy" about Canon mirrorless?
 

neuroanatomist

Spends too much time on this forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,312
354
#31
From my perspective, Canon is fiddling around while Rome burns,. This delay, while very typical of Canon, ignores the fact that this time, things are different. There is very serious competition that is meeting Canon in all full-frame market segments, from entry level to high-res to sports. I suspect whatever mirrorless full frame cameras Canon announces will have been subjected to Canon's usual market-segmentation analysis and rife with "camera crippling" decisions. They are sticking with all their other scripts and I see no reason they won't stick to that script too!
Interestingly, many similar comments were made in 2012 when Canon launched the EOS M line. I can easily see Canon following the script that took them to the top of the domestic MILC market.


All I have to do is pull the trigger and go.

Bottom line for me, it's just about time to cut opportunity costs associated with remaining a Canon customer, and decamp to Sony.
Why haven't you? If had a nickel for every person on this forum who claimed they were 'just about to switch to _____' but then didn't...well, I don't really need the money, but it would make a chosen charity very happy.
 
Likes: pj1974

CanonFanBoy

Bipolar. When it is happening I don't realize it.
Jan 28, 2015
2,484
136
Irving, Texas
#32
Just wondering if you have actually tried various mirrorless cameras before making your pronouncement. Or is it just the usual anti-Canon crap that is spewed out endlessly by the trolls?

Having owned Sony, Olympus and Canon mirrorless, I would consider the Canon M5 to be - by far - the best value and best mirrorless camera for the average camera buyer. If you are a pro, then no, the lens lineup may leave you wanting, but for an enthusiast or average camera user it is excellent. The lenses cover all the focal lengths except the longer zooms that birders and sports/wildlife folks may want, but the quality of the lenses for their price is way beyond what anyone else can offer. I really like my Olympus m4/3rds mirrorless, but if I want the best quality shot, I use the M5. I know color is subjective, but Canon still has the best - and one reason why I wouldn't even consider Sony again. Just wondering what exactly you think is so "crappy" about Canon mirrorless?
My guess would be that most of them have never owned or even tried what they keep saying is better, will never switch, and won't buy what they say they want even if Canon builds it. They just like to complain and go through their whole miserable lives never really being happy with anything. The tell tale sign is that they've been complaining for years and will continue to complain. They really don't mean what they say. They really have no idea what they are talking about. They read reviews, they watch YouTube, etc., and then act like they know something.
 
Last edited:
Jun 22, 2017
188
12
New Zealand
#33
And yet...Canon has gained market share. Thanks for helping demonstrate my point.
I'm afraid I don't see how my not buying a camera from Canon because there isnt one that fits what I want, proves that your point? The point of my comment was that forum members do buy gear (I.e are real customers) rather than just talk about it, and that in my case at least, the features that were available elsewhere that Canon don't offer, meant they didn't get a sale.

If canons marketshare has increased, that's all fine and well, but it doesn't really help my case if the cameras still don't fit the need
 

transpo1

EOS Rebel SL2
Jan 12, 2011
608
29
#34
Canon has always seemed to me to wait until the competition has made their announcements. I remember making that same comment on CR many years ago after it first started up. I haven't seen anything to change my mind.

Obviously, any new design was completed over a year ago, about the only possible thing to finalize is a few firmware features that may or may not happen, depending on how well they work.

I expect some sort of sensor optimized for FF mirrorless, we have seen more than one patent that has a potential solution for AF issues on the outer edges of a DPAF sensor, and for light drop off that occurs at the edges for short flange back distances.
We’re being played by the rumor mill- Canon is trying to build up excitement for whenever they do launch by leaking these ever shifting dates.
 
Feb 21, 2013
25
4
#35
We’re being played by the rumor mill- Canon is trying to build up excitement for whenever they do launch by leaking these ever shifting dates.
If that's the strategy, I don't think it's working very well. All I'm getting from it is an increased sense of annoyance.

Meanwhile, there's this:

SAN DIEGO, Aug. 15, 2018 – Sony Electronics, Inc. – a worldwide leader in digital imaging and the world’s largest image sensor manufacturer – today announced that it has overtaken and held the No. 1 overall position in the United States full-frame interchangeable lens camera market in the first half of 2018, in both dollars and units. In fact, four out of every 10 full-frame cameras sold during this time period have come from the Sony brand.

Additionally, Sony has announced that within the overall mirrorless market, it has held the No. 1 position in both dollars and units for more than six years. These strong results can be attributed to the company’s leadership in transitioning the market from older DSLR technology to next-generation mirrorless cameras.


The details are here:
https://www.dpreview.com/news/09472...-full-frame-interchangeable-lens-camera-sales
 
Likes: Isaacheus
Sep 21, 2011
48
3
#36
CR2 on When Canon will announce their Full Frame mirrorless
CR4.5 on no matter when Canon announce their Full frame mirrorless it is going to be a disappointment but they will sell them by boat load

It is amazing how lucky Canon is. Despite having crappiest mirrorless cameras and world's worst native mirrorless lens line up they are #1 in mirrorless camera by sales. Look at Fuji's fate despite having kick ass cameras and awesome lenses they were nowhere in a position to be even counted in the percentage market share scale. Obviously Canon's Internet Defense Forces (CIDF) will argue Canon is the market leader, they know everything better than the photographers and there is data to prove. So no need for Canon to innovate for next 10 years. My opinion is unless Canon butt is in fire they will not move and that is not happening at all. No matter how disappointing their products are people still buying in to that.

Here is what I have observed in Canon’ business model and that seems to be working. Come up with a lackluster camera. Overprice it when compared to features offered on similar products from competitors and then sell them by giving huge rebates, free carepak, free grip (wherever applicable) and give away printer and paper for free. In addition to that sell them cheaper through the backdoor round the year (If you don't understand what that is please ignore. I am not going to explain it).

For e.g. Canon priced 6D2 $2000 but last holiday season it was on sale for $1350 post MIR including the below
BG-E21 Grip – Retail price $300
LP-E6N battery pack – Retail price $100
Pixma Pro-100 printer – Retail price $500
SG-201 - Paper 50 sheets – Retail price $100
Disclaimer: All prices are retail prices from Canon USA website. The street price might be lower.
If you add up the retail prices for each item Canon pretty much gave away 6D2 for nothing. Pretty much same deal with 5D4. I understand that is a holiday sale but my point is competitors do not discount products that much. That also gives an idea how much it is costing canon to make them.
Year around 6D2 is available for $1500 if you know where to get. I am not talking about unauthorized dealers. IMO at $1200 to $1500 range 6D2 is worth the price but not at $2000

I am on the camp asking for a camera that goes head on head with competitors’ products in terms of capability and I am even willing pay a 5-10% premium for Canon but Canon does not even wants to compete. Honestly speaking I feel CIDF are correct at least on this one “Canon’s strategy is working” so why bother even competing.
Yeah, Canon's market share for mirrorless is impressive, but its based on units sold - they have targeted the low value/high volume part of the market ….. that means low margins …….. looks good on quantity, but not so good on profit …….Fuji and Sony may be selling less, but they're in a different part of the market ….. the margin on a $3,000 lens is a lot more than a $300 lens! Canon are going to have to enter the high end market soon, or they'll suffer, but need to avoid a repeat of the M release or they'll seriously damage their reputation
 
Aug 12, 2018
22
14
#37
Meanwhile, there's this:

SAN DIEGO, Aug. 15, 2018 – Sony Electronics, Inc. – a worldwide leader in digital imaging and the world’s largest image sensor manufacturer – today announced that it has overtaken and held the No. 1 overall position in the United States full-frame interchangeable lens camera market in the first half of 2018, in both dollars and units. In fact, four out of every 10 full-frame cameras sold during this time period have come from the Sony brand.
I want to see how the fanboys argue against that. Popcorn time!
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D Mark IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,005
216
#38
I want to see how the fanboys argue against that. Popcorn time!
They quote being #1 in sales and to illustrate it they include a graph that shows relative growth, not absolute sales.
That immediately sets my 'Sony caveat' radar going - you know, the sort of one where they brag about AF at f11 then the footnotes say 'in AF tracking it does not refocus after the first shot' and heap of others. And the announcement last year 'we are #1' that covered a period of only 2 months of a promo and we heard nothing more after that because they could not sustain the sales.

Secondly, it covers the 6months following the release of the impressive A73 at a price that floored everyone so not only is there 'new model' syndrome but also the 'wow at that price I must get it' wave where the wallet rules the head. And I suspect that the price was there to deal a bow to the birth of CaNikon FF MILC. So let us see if Sony can maintain those sales.

Thirdly, the graph is about sales, not ownership. And it is limited to FF not the market as a whole. It will be a long, long time before Sony make inroads to the bread-and-butter APS-C end of the market.

Fourth, Sony sales are made largely of people switching systems or adding a second camera.

Are Sony impressive cameras? Yep.
But I was just responding to your comment about people arguing against it. I am not a Canon fanboy by any means, but the way you triumphantly embraced that press release makes me suspect you are a Sony fanboy (maybe in the closet still, but a fanboy nonetheless).