Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera

fussy III

EOS T7i
Mar 6, 2013
97
0
scyrene said:
fussy III said:
Talys said:
ritholtz said:
If some one wants to buy Canon M camera for wild life, isn't M50 better choice than M5. It has latest version of DPAF and improved focusing system. I think it can also shoot with faster FPS.
I understand why someone may want to buy a Canon M, and I understand why someone who has one would use it to photograph wildlife. But I can't imagine why someone would specifically choose a Canon M for wildlife photography.
If you do not comprehend the need to combine truly silent shutter with workable AF in wildlife photography, you are simply not experienced in wildlife-photography. So why do you comment?

I had stated I had invested into the Ef-System already. But no matter how fast or rugged of a Canon-Camera I employ, all of them make some kind of shutter noise. Silent mode just has not been truly silent with Canon so far because electronic shutter was missing from the system until now. Ruggedness and fps I can sacrifize in many situations, especially sitting in a hide photographing shy and alert mammals. So the M50 would have been "ok" for my needs if it had not been for the stupid and exclusive implementation of electronic shutter into SCN-mode.

None of this means to say that I applaud Canon for not offering a fast and rugged mirrorless pro-level camera with electronic shutter for bigger money.

Crippling silence into the SCN-mode must seem like a stupid move by Canon to any experienced photographer or intelligent being. No soup for anyone! I simply do not understand why Canon seems to be embracing incompetent fools only and to noone's benefit. IMO people who do not understand manual exposure should not be messing with electronic shutter.
Out of interest, do the mammals not also respond to the sound of the focus motor in the lens? I tried to photograph my sister's cat, and it ran away the moment I half-pressed the shutter button. (I shoot plenty of wildlife, but I've never known an animal flee at the shutter sound, but it's mostly not mammals and perhaps it varies with the area of the world you're in). Still, this camera is probably not aimed at wildlife shooters, so it's a bit beside the point. It's for beginners, or early enthusiasts focused on video/small size, surely?
Individual pets will have concerns about a camera, because they either see an unfamiliar being in it or because they associate the experience of being molested. The sound of the USM may be judged or associated in that same context and it is usually very nearby and easily detected in a closed environment with ceiling. If one was to hide in a small cave in order to photograph a hunting wild cat there, upon hearing the USM it would probably respond in a similar manner as your sister's cat did and for similar reasons: a) unfamiliar sound likely caused by an unfimiliar being b) confined space making any threat more immediate

However I am dealing mostly with wild animals in the open (as most wildlife-photographers would): In North American or in Subsaharan National Parks, many mammals do not pay attention to shutter sounds because they are familiar with them and have long categorized them as this insignificant noise associated with the insignificant presence of an insignificant sort of humans. In fact the shutter may aid them in saving energy and in categorizing these particular humans as not being harmful. In the same way noisy Americans, Israelis or members of otherwise easily exited cultures may be easier to assess for African wildlife (as being harmless) than a safari-bus containing respectfully whispering Norwegians. So noise may indeed have a calming effect on some animals under certain conditions - of course only until a certain point - one might call it the annoyment-threshold, which is reached the moment that other potential hazards are dangerously being subdued.

On my part I am photographing mainly in dry North African and Eurasian environments where hunting is either badly controlled or permitted and where animals are not accustomed to wildlife-photographers or even hikers. Any sound unknown or human is seen as a potential or immediate threat. So there is a regional aspect about my need of employing electronic shutter. However I would assume in North America in areas where coyotes are being hunted, despite their initial curiosity, they would move away after hearing a shutter-noise just as a Golden Jackal would in Algeria.

Regarding the effect of USM in the open from my experience I can report that a USM-motor mostly goes unnoticed (unless very proximate) whereas a sounding shutter alerts or flushes the animals once it is being released (with or without mirrorslap). I have for example been photographing with EOS 1n, EOS 1D IV, EOS 60D, EOS 80D, EOS 5DsR and they all alert wolves, gazelles, drinking sandgrouse when my silent Sony A7s (focusing manually out of technological necessity) does not.

Of all the mentioned EOS cameras, the 5DsR is the least noisy, but when there is no wind in the desert, a gazelle will still pay attention to its shutternoise even from 250m distance while the USM Motor it will only pay attention to from appr. 20m (when the reflection from the lens-front element will already play a bigger role). Sandgrouse are notoriously alert when drinking/bathing and I had to switch from the silent mode of the 70D to the A7s at a distance of appr. 12m. Foxes and wolves will pass my hide ignoring USM at anything beyond 15m unless they stand and listen, which they will upon registring a shutter-noise. Just to give you an idea ...

Shutternoise alone suffices to alert and scare the mentioned species in the described manner, however when I am working with the current EOS-DSLRs I cannot resort to liveview (which would avoid additional mirrorslap) because at one point the mirror would slap anyway (when I have to lift it) and slap back in an uncontrolled manner sometime later when the camera decides to save on battery. Further, responsiveness in Liveview is terrible (blackouts etc.). All this contributes to the need of employing a mirrorless for wildlife. I can live with a bit of rolling electronic shutter as in the A7s (the faster the readout the better) and I dislike having to deal with the imperfections and the weight of a blimp.

As repetition of my main point: The fact that the EOS M50 was not intended for wildlife-photographers does not justify to make the silent-mode useless by crippling/scramming it into SCN.
 

MayaTlab

EOS 80D
Oct 6, 2015
192
77
fussy III said:
As repetition of my main point: The fact that the EOS M50 was not intended for wildlife-photographers does not justify to make the silent-mode useless by crippling/scramming it into SCN.
The reason the M50's silent mode is tucked away in a scene mode is probably because its scanning speed is so slow, Canon support would receive a lot of complaints from users who would have enabled it in all modes if it had been possible that their pictures of moving objects are distorted. At least that's probably Canon's reasoning. An unintuitive camera that may lead to user error is a drain on customer services resources.

I'm very curious to know exactly the scanning speed of the M50's sensor, but it's probably lower than most other APSC sensors.

I also think that the lack of DPAF with 4K and the crop isn't related to the Digic processor, but to the sensor's slow readout speed. From what I understand DPAF needs to do two readings to work, while masked PDAF pixels can be read simultaneously with others, and if the full sensor had been used, rolling shutter would be so bad that the video would be barely usable.
 

fussy III

EOS T7i
Mar 6, 2013
97
0
MayaTlab said:
fussy III said:
As repetition of my main point: The fact that the EOS M50 was not intended for wildlife-photographers does not justify to make the silent-mode useless by crippling/scramming it into SCN.
The reason the M50's silent mode is tucked away in a scene mode is probably because its scanning speed is so slow, Canon support would receive a lot of complaints from users who would have enabled it in all modes if it had been possible that their pictures of moving objects are distorted. At least that's probably Canon's reasoning. An unintuitive camera that may lead to user error is a drain on customer services resources.

I'm very curious to know exactly the scanning speed of the M50's sensor, but it's probably lower than most other APSC sensors.

I also think that the lack of DPAF with 4K and the crop isn't related to the Digic processor, but to the sensor's slow readout speed. From what I understand DPAF needs to do two readings to work, while masked PDAF pixels can be read simultaneously with others, and if the full sensor had been used, rolling shutter would be so bad that the video would be barely usable.
Good points. But isn't it contradictory then to offer silent shooting in the "fools-mode" and not in M-mode?
Every way I look at it, it seems I'll have to add a a6500 to my camera-selection before heading to desert again. Or should I go all the way towards Sony (A7RIII plus A7sIII, one set of batteries, changing my 100-400 L IS II for the Sony-Version and possibly exchanging my 500/4.0 L IS to a Sigma 500/4.0 OS)? Canon keeps pushing me away from my beloved EF-lenses with every other camera-release.
 

MayaTlab

EOS 80D
Oct 6, 2015
192
77
fussy III said:
MayaTlab said:
fussy III said:
As repetition of my main point: The fact that the EOS M50 was not intended for wildlife-photographers does not justify to make the silent-mode useless by crippling/scramming it into SCN.
The reason the M50's silent mode is tucked away in a scene mode is probably because its scanning speed is so slow, Canon support would receive a lot of complaints from users who would have enabled it in all modes if it had been possible that their pictures of moving objects are distorted. At least that's probably Canon's reasoning. An unintuitive camera that may lead to user error is a drain on customer services resources.

I'm very curious to know exactly the scanning speed of the M50's sensor, but it's probably lower than most other APSC sensors.

I also think that the lack of DPAF with 4K and the crop isn't related to the Digic processor, but to the sensor's slow readout speed. From what I understand DPAF needs to do two readings to work, while masked PDAF pixels can be read simultaneously with others, and if the full sensor had been used, rolling shutter would be so bad that the video would be barely usable.
Good points. But isn't it contradictory then to offer silent shooting in the "fools-mode" and not in M-mode?
Possibly. At least since it's got its own special mode, it makes it explicit that it's something to be used for specific applications only. The other thing is that a lot of features are disabled when using it, such as continuous shooting, so maybe Canon feared some users wouldn't understand why some menu items are greyed.
Anyway that's just me trying to get into Canon's head. I'm not necessarily defending that move.

Canon better hurry up in improving their capacity to manufacture sensors with a fast readout cheaply, because we're around two years away from Sony selling A9 level of performances for less than $2000 and right now there is no way Canon can price their upcoming FF mirrorless camera higher than $1500 or so with what they've shown they can produce so far.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,639
2,153
MayaTlab said:
...right now there is no way Canon can price their upcoming FF mirrorless camera higher than $1500 or so with what they've shown they can produce so far.
Don't be ridiculous. Canon can —and almost certainly will— price their first FF MILC much higher than that. You may not buy one as priced, but Canon doesn't care, even a little bit, about what you do.
 

MayaTlab

EOS 80D
Oct 6, 2015
192
77
neuroanatomist said:
MayaTlab said:
...right now there is no way Canon can price their upcoming FF mirrorless camera higher than $1500 or so with what they've shown they can produce so far.
Don't be ridiculous. Canon can —and almost certainly will— price their first FF MILC much higher than that. You may not buy one as priced, but Canon doesn't care, even a little bit, about what you do.
None of Canon's current FF sensors are fast enough to provide something that's on par with Sony's A7III in many areas of performance (live view feed in continuous mode, FF 4K, etc.). The issue here isn't just in terms of IQ, it affects operational qualities. That could very well improve in the future.

BTW in Europe Canon has gotten the memo. The M50 is priced at around $580 at launch. At this price it's unbeatable, in fact it's terrific value for money IMO. Higher than that it runs into problems, as the M5 did since it's been a flop here.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,639
2,153
MayaTlab said:
neuroanatomist said:
MayaTlab said:
...right now there is no way Canon can price their upcoming FF mirrorless camera higher than $1500 or so with what they've shown they can produce so far.
Don't be ridiculous. Canon can —and almost certainly will— price their first FF MILC much higher than that. You may not buy one as priced, but Canon doesn't care, even a little bit, about what you do.
None of Canon's current FF sensors are fast enough to provide something that's on par with Sony's A7III in many areas of performance (live view feed in continuous mode, FF 4K, etc.). The issue here isn't just in terms of IQ, it affects operational qualities. That could very well improve in the future.

BTW in Europe Canon has gotten the memo. The M50 is priced at around $580 at launch. At this price it's unbeatable, in fact it's terrific value for money IMO. Higher than that it runs into problems, as the M5 did since it's been a flop here.
The a7III is $2K. It's nice that you claim it's so much better than a Canon FF sensor can be, but sensor ≠ camera. Lots of people claim that the a7RIII is far superior to the 5DIV, but the 5DIV costs more. And as I pointed out earlier, Canon sells more FF ILCs than Sony.

As for the M5 being a flop in Europe, on Amazon in Italy, the M5 sits at #5 and #8 (with/without kit lens) on the MILC bestseller list. #1/#2 are GoPro knockoffs, and the M100 is #3 (with Fuji and Panasonic MILCs rounding out the top 10). Are you saying that Italy isn't part of Europe? Or that France represents all of Europe? Serious hubris. Given that Sony MILCs don't even crack the Top 10 in Italy, should we say that Sony is a flop in Europe?
 

tron

EOS 5D SR
Nov 8, 2011
4,439
701
neuroanatomist said:
MayaTlab said:
neuroanatomist said:
MayaTlab said:
...right now there is no way Canon can price their upcoming FF mirrorless camera higher than $1500 or so with what they've shown they can produce so far.
Don't be ridiculous. Canon can —and almost certainly will— price their first FF MILC much higher than that. You may not buy one as priced, but Canon doesn't care, even a little bit, about what you do.
None of Canon's current FF sensors are fast enough to provide something that's on par with Sony's A7III in many areas of performance (live view feed in continuous mode, FF 4K, etc.). The issue here isn't just in terms of IQ, it affects operational qualities. That could very well improve in the future.

BTW in Europe Canon has gotten the memo. The M50 is priced at around $580 at launch. At this price it's unbeatable, in fact it's terrific value for money IMO. Higher than that it runs into problems, as the M5 did since it's been a flop here.
The a7III is $2K. It's nice that you claim it's so much better than a Canon FF sensor can be, but sensor ≠ camera. Lots of people claim that the a7RIII is far superior to the 5DIV, but the 5DIV costs more. And as I pointed out earlier, Canon sells more FF ILCs than Sony.

As for the M5 being a flop in Europe, on Amazon in Italy, the M5 sits at #5 and #8 (with/without kit lens) on the MILC bestseller list. #1/#2 are GoPro knockoffs, and the M100 is #3 (with Fuji and Panasonic MILCs rounding out the top 10). Are you saying that Italy isn't part of Europe? Or that France represents all of Europe? Serious hubris. Given that Sony MILCs don't even crack the Top 10 in Italy, should we say that Sony is a flop in Europe?
+1 plus the "costs more" amount beween Sony A7RIII and Canon 5DMkIV is merely 101$ in current B&H prices! And "much better" is highly subjective. My 5DIV works perfectly OK with my ... Canon lenses ranging from 14mm to 500mm ;D and produces excellent results in many variable conditions (landscape astrophotography, museum and churches interiors, birding, etc).
 

MayaTlab

EOS 80D
Oct 6, 2015
192
77
neuroanatomist said:
MayaTlab said:
neuroanatomist said:
MayaTlab said:
...right now there is no way Canon can price their upcoming FF mirrorless camera higher than $1500 or so with what they've shown they can produce so far.
Don't be ridiculous. Canon can —and almost certainly will— price their first FF MILC much higher than that. You may not buy one as priced, but Canon doesn't care, even a little bit, about what you do.
None of Canon's current FF sensors are fast enough to provide something that's on par with Sony's A7III in many areas of performance (live view feed in continuous mode, FF 4K, etc.). The issue here isn't just in terms of IQ, it affects operational qualities. That could very well improve in the future.

BTW in Europe Canon has gotten the memo. The M50 is priced at around $580 at launch. At this price it's unbeatable, in fact it's terrific value for money IMO. Higher than that it runs into problems, as the M5 did since it's been a flop here.
The a7III is $2K. It's nice that you claim it's so much better than a Canon FF sensor can be, but sensor ≠ camera. Lots of people claim that the a7RIII is far superior to the 5DIV, but the 5DIV costs more. And as I pointed out earlier, Canon sells more FF ILCs than Sony.

As for the M5 being a flop in Europe, on Amazon in Italy, the M5 sits at #5 and #8 (with/without kit lens) on the MILC bestseller list. #1/#2 are GoPro knockoffs, and the M100 is #3 (with Fuji and Panasonic MILCs rounding out the top 10). Are you saying that Italy isn't part of Europe? Or that France represents all of Europe? Serious hubris. Given that Sony MILCs don't even crack the Top 10 in Italy, should we say that Sony is a flop in Europe?
The Amazon ranking puts the X-pro 2 graphite edition at €2000 in ninth position, and doesn't even list the X-T2 out of 100 posiitons. So please allow me to cast serious doubts about its accuracy. In fact with that alone it looks completely bogus.

That said I entirely agree that a sensor doesn't make a full camera. But with mirrorless cameras, it makes it more so than with DSLRs. The A7III leaves very little room for Canon to maneuver.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,262
1,918
Canada
mistaspeedy said:
Taking a 1:1 crop from the middle of the lens is terrible for quality... the 'sweet spot' would need to be impossibly sweet to get total clarity.
Have you ever seen a lens where the MTF is better as you move away from the centre?
 

fussy III

EOS T7i
Mar 6, 2013
97
0
tron said:
... and produces excellent results in many variable conditions (landscape astrophotography, museum and churches interiors, birding, etc).
Indeed in many variable conditions the 5D IV will deliver, with the exemption of those variable conditions in which Sony delivers on top of that.

I agree a fullframe mirrorless by Canon will not come cheap. But will it justify the cost to most of us EF-lens-owners if it will not deliver where the competition already does? Among others fast readout with silent shooting, emulation of minimally ISO 400.000 in an electronic viewfinder's image to facilitate manual focus in very dim lighting situations (the reason for which I bought and still work with the A7s), more usable 4K-AF, usable profiles and a sense of appreciation of their customers and the art of photography in general (let's not even get into taste and design)?

I will not consider buying a FF-Canon for even less than $1.000 if it does not succesfully address those aforementioned issues, first and foremost silent shooting. If it is up to me they do not need to create FF-lenses specifically for mirrorless. It is my EF-lenses who are screaming for access to modern-mirrorless benefits. I still love optical viewfinders but might see myself forced on giving up on my hope of working with a lens-park that I can use with both optical and electronic viewfinder. And at some point I will stop asking whether Canon is just not willing or simply unable to deliver. I think that describes the situation of many ambitioned and faithful Canon-photographers.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,639
2,153
MayaTlab said:
The Amazon ranking puts the X-pro 2 graphite edition at €2000 in ninth position, and doesn't even list the X-T2 out of 100 posiitons. So please allow me to cast serious doubts about its accuracy. In fact with that alone it looks completely bogus.

That said I entirely agree that a sensor doesn't make a full camera. But with mirrorless cameras, it makes it more so than with DSLRs. The A7III leaves very little room for Canon to maneuver.
In that case, would you mind sharing your data showing that the M5 is a 'flop'? I know, you said they don't seem to stock them in shops in France. As I stated, France ≠ Europe.

Canon has plenty of room to maneuver. They are the ILC market leader, currently they have 50% of the entire global market. Therefore, their main source of FF MILC buyers are current Canon (APS-C) owners.
 

tron

EOS 5D SR
Nov 8, 2011
4,439
701
fussy III said:
tron said:
... and produces excellent results in many variable conditions (landscape astrophotography, museum and churches interiors, birding, etc).
Indeed in many variable conditions the 5D IV will deliver, with the exemption of those variable conditions in which Sony delivers on top of that.

I agree a fullframe mirrorless by Canon will not come cheap. But will it justify the cost to most of us EF-lens-owners if it will not deliver where the competition already does? Among others fast readout with silent shooting, emulation of minimally ISO 400.000 in an electronic viewfinder's image to facilitate manual focus in very dim lighting situations (the reason for which I bought and still work with the A7s), more usable 4K-AF, usable profiles and a sense of appreciation of their customers and the art of photography in general (let's not even get into taste and design)?

I will not consider buying a FF-Canon for even less than $1.000 if it does not succesfully address those aforementioned issues, first and foremost silent shooting. If it is up to me they do not need to create FF-lenses specifically for mirrorless. It is my EF-lenses who are screaming for access to modern-mirrorless benefits. I still love optical viewfinders but might see myself forced on giving up on my hope of working with a lens-park that I can use with both optical and electronic viewfinder. And at some point I will stop asking whether Canon is just not willing or simply unable to deliver. I think that describes the situation of many ambitioned and faithful Canon-photographers.
I personally do not have any objection to a mirorless FF from Canon especially with an EF mount (I do have many Canon EF L lenses). But I do not care. I do not see a huge advantage against a DSLR. And the optical viewfinder saves the battery so much that you can take maybe even 3+ times of photos per charge. What I wait for is the 7DII and 5DsR replacements and nothing else. As a "mirrorless" I could use a D200 in liveview mode with EF-S18-55/4.5-5.6, EF-S24 2.8 and EF-S10-18/4.5-5.6. Of course YMMV.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,062
341
Vancouver, BC
tron said:
I personally do not have any objection to a mirorless FF from Canon especially with an EF mount (I do have many Canon EF L lenses). But I do not care. I do not see a huge advantage against a DSLR. And the optical viewfinder saves the battery so much that you can take maybe even 3+ times of photos per charge. What I wait for is the 7DII and 5DsR replacements and nothing else. As a "mirrorless" I could use a D200 in liveview mode with EF-S18-55/4.5-5.6, EF-S24 2.8 and EF-S10-18/4.5-5.6. Of course YMMV.
+10

I was out for a full day last weekend taking photos of birds, looking through the viewfinder a significant portion of that. I took a little over 980 photos -- and I didn't even exhaust a single LPE6 battery. With a DSLR, I never have to take more than 1 spare battery, and I never even bother checking the status of the battery in the camera before I leave.

The other issue is that I haven't yet used an EVF that works well in a studio that only has a bit of lighting (like modelling lights set on low), and where strobes are rapidly firing.
 

fussy III

EOS T7i
Mar 6, 2013
97
0
tron said:
I could use a D200 in liveview mode with EF-S18-55/4.5-5.6, EF-S24 2.8 and EF-S10-18/4.5-5.6.
Very similar situation with my Pentax 6x7 here. It even allows to lock-up the mirror mechanically. A good starting point for the modifications needed in order to convert it into a EF-hybrid-mirrorless I'd say.
 

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
584
12
neuroanatomist said:
MayaTlab said:
The Amazon ranking puts the X-pro 2 graphite edition at €2000 in ninth position, and doesn't even list the X-T2 out of 100 posiitons. So please allow me to cast serious doubts about its accuracy. In fact with that alone it looks completely bogus.

That said I entirely agree that a sensor doesn't make a full camera. But with mirrorless cameras, it makes it more so than with DSLRs. The A7III leaves very little room for Canon to maneuver.
In that case, would you mind sharing your data showing that the M5 is a 'flop'? I know, you said they don't seem to stock them in shops in France. As I stated, France ≠ Europe.

Canon has plenty of room to maneuver. They are the ILC market leader, currently they have 50% of the entire global market. Therefore, their main source of FF MILC buyers are current Canon (APS-C) owners.
I doubt there is any data vailable to show M5 sales. There are couple of active posters here and dpr who fallows sales number thoroughly. M5 sales flop numbers are just a feel good story shared between them by same like minded group.
 

NorbR

EOS RP
Jan 15, 2014
256
4
Zürich, Switzerland
MayaTlab said:
The Amazon ranking puts the X-pro 2 graphite edition at €2000 in ninth position, and doesn't even list the X-T2 out of 100 posiitons. So please allow me to cast serious doubts about its accuracy. In fact with that alone it looks completely bogus.
Using Amazon rankings to compare overall sales is like using DxO scores to compare sensors. It's not completely useless, there's some genuine data underneath it all, but the algorithm used is completely cryptic and there's a whole bunch of factors we don't know about that mess up those rankings, which renders the whole thing fairly pointless imho.

That being said, it is still better than anecdotal evidence like "my buddy at the store still has 10 of them left on the shelves" or "2 of my friends have bought one". Sales data for specific camera models are hard to come by, and most broad statements like "camera X is flying off the shelves" or "camera Y is a flop" are based on no actual data whatsoever.
 

Rocky

EOS 6D MK II
Jul 30, 2010
922
33
Who is #1 in sales? Who has more lenses line-up? Who cares. Just buy the gear that you want or just buy the gear that fits your existing need the best. There is always something better next year.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,062
341
Vancouver, BC
Don Haines said:
mistaspeedy said:
Taking a 1:1 crop from the middle of the lens is terrible for quality... the 'sweet spot' would need to be impossibly sweet to get total clarity.
Have you ever seen a lens where the MTF is better as you move away from the centre?
That would be the worst lens ever made :D

When you look at the $5,000 - $25,000 camcorders from Sony or Canon, they are not high megapixels that are scaled down. Most of them have something like a 3840x2160 sensor. I'm pretty sure that if the quality of video were way better if that were higher density and reduced... they'd do that... because obviously, Sony and Canon are capable of building sensors that are more than 8.3 megapixels.