Canon, Canon Canon….. Please help the video stars

amorse

EOS RP
Jan 26, 2017
303
204
www.flickr.com
About the 24p, might turn out to be a basic math issue (not solvable with a firmware). Normally things work at 60hz in north america. If you want to playback at 24p, you basically need to run at 240hz (60hz as basic frequency x 4 cycles per seconds); then you output the same frame 10times in a row, so you get 24 frame / sec. Maybe the R cannot run at 240 so cannot produce 24p?
Fair enough, but why can the 4k run at 24? Honest question; I'm far from an engineer.
 

PureClassA

Canon since age 5. The A1
Aug 15, 2014
1,564
124
Mandeville, LA
Shields-Photography.com
About the 24p, might turn out to be a basic math issue (not solvable with a firmware). Normally things work at 60hz in north america. If you want to playback at 24p, you basically need to run at 240hz (60hz as basic frequency x 4 cycles per seconds); then you output the same frame 10times in a row, so you get 24 frame / sec. Maybe the R cannot run at 240 so cannot produce 24p?
....No. there is no technical or hardware limitiation as to why this camera can not do what every other camera can do and has been doing for nearly a decade. Canon deleted the lines of code in the firmware that did it, same as the crop lens issue. This a was pure (boneheaded) marketing decision to arbitrarly render the RP useless for folks who wanted it for video. In other words, they seem to assume if you want a normal video machine in Canon’s new FF MILC lineup, spend an extra $1000 for the EOS R. $2300 for basic, 2018-2019 entry level video capabilities... this is why a not-insignificant market of video folks have migrated to Sony, Panasonic, now Fuji... and now Nikon who is gonna have a ProRes Raw capability with their Z cameras and the Atomos line of recorders.
The RP is a great stills camera value at $1299 but there’s no excuse for what they did on the video side. There were more than enough reasonable downgrades already from the R with loss of CLog, loss of 4k30, loss of 10bit output, loss of DPAF in 4k shooting, etc... but no, let’s get completely ridiculous and shank the 24p in 1080. They took it out, they can issue an update and put it back. Otherwise all the video folks who were really excited and waiting for this camera will keep their money instead of gladly handing it to canon like I was gonna...
 

EduPortas

EOS T7i
Jul 1, 2015
76
31
The reasoning behind this cameras insane:

4K video/Mic port/headphone jack: check! But no DPAF with EF-S lenses in 1080p. In fact, no 1080p at all with those lenses! What?!

Yet, you CAN get 4K with EF-S lenses and 1080p with DPAF with EF-S lenses in a subframe body in the M50. Alas, no headphone jack. What?!

That my friends, make no sense at all. Unless you're a Canon beancounter.
 
Feb 13, 2019
2
2
The reason why no EF-S lenses in FHD is simple: that enables FHD crop mode which is in fact downsampled 4K (it has been like that since 1DC) and since Canon want to prevent DPAF in 4K they simply removed crop mode from 1080p as that would be a workaround.

Omitting 24p from FHD is just another way of segmenting the camera.

None of these are technical limitations, just crippling to segment EOS RP from it's $1000 more expensive big brother.

Begging Canon to add this is a futile exercise in my opinion, its like asking them to add 1/8000 SS to 6D/6D2/RP.

Not going to happen, they have marketing experts that worked very hard to place these limitations.

On the bright side, EOS RP only has a 1.6x crop in 4K vs EOS R's 1.78x due to its 26.2MP sensor.
That makes it perfect for APS-C / EF-S lenses with full coverage and no weird FoV math.
 
Reactions: crazyrunner33

Kathode-Ray

Shoot, shoot, shoot!
Jun 29, 2012
66
2
I seriously don't get all this fuss about missing 24p. What's the big deal? Set the cam to PAL and shoot 25p, what's the difference?

Here in Europe, we shoot video at 1080p25 all the time, so I couldn't care less about 24p...
 
Reactions: stevelee

Del Paso

M3 Singlestroke
Aug 9, 2018
315
270
I never shoot video, in fact, I don't give a damn about video.
BUT: since Canon has been leading (5 D II), and is so often criticized for having become unable to compete with Fuji, Panasonic and Sony, I just don't understand their lack of reaction.
Looks like (a few, some, many???) want better video specs, why not offer them what they (wish, want, need ???) provided technically possible?
Wanting to sell specific video equipment while sacrificing video specs of "stills" cameras benefits competition and gives biased and unbiased youtubers arguments against Canon...:unsure:
 
Feb 13, 2019
2
2
The problem is Canon is severely lagging in the sensor tech department. They simply can't compete in video due to this.

All the other camera manufacturers are now buying their sensors from Sony who are way ahead of Canon , while they are left recycling year old sensors from their DSLRs.

Until Canon develop a new batch of sensors with things like BSI, 6K supersampling, 4K full readout, better rolling shutter, they will keep losing to all other camera manufacturers in the video department..
 
Reactions: CanoKnight

davidhfe

EOS T7i
Sep 9, 2015
50
15
The problem with the "buy something else if this doesn't meet your needs" argument is that for better or worse, the big time influencers right now all give a lot more extra weight to video because that's how they're reaching their audience. They see their one missing feature an upload a video with a thumbnail that says "CANON EOS RP FAIL!" People buying entry level cameras are going to be turning going a google search for the camera and that's what pops up at the top of the feed.

CR Guy is 100% on target when he says nobody was expecting groundbreaking features at $1299. But there's a pretty basic set of spec checkboxes that just need to be reliably checked or this is gonna be the story for the next 5+ years. Their high MP, IBIS, etc sensor tech is going to need to make a hell of a splash to turn the conversation around.

And yeah, Canon is still on top of sales, but in a world where the ILC market is contracting they need to remember a business line can come crashing down really, really quickly. "How do you go bankrupt? Slowly then all at once"
 

amorse

EOS RP
Jan 26, 2017
303
204
www.flickr.com
I'm not going to lie, I really like Canon's cameras for what they do offer. I own a 5D IV and I love it - it has yet to let me down. I don't really shoot video, so the video specs never really bothered me on any of their releases. I've been able to understand the decisions Canon has made up to this point and accepted the limitations for what the were. I could even accept the 6D II using an older sensor tech and there are reasonable explanations for those decisions. I get all of that - sacrifices need to be made in order to build a product at a target price point, and that makes sense. But I'm really struggling with the omission of 24 fps at 1080 here, not because it affects me, but because it seems petty and intentional.

I really don't understand this decision - I don't see any way of explaining the removal of 24 fps at 1080 other then segmentation, especially when it's available for 4k in the same body. Don't get me wrong, I still like my gear, I still think they'll sell a boat load of RP's, and I'm not going to say I or anyone else will change brands, but this does really make me question their intent and what it means for future releases. The decision doesn't affect my use, but it does indeed leave a very sour taste in my mouth just because it all seems so blatant and unnecessary.
 
Mar 26, 2016
6
2
Dear Canon, I've spent a healthy 5 figures with your company over several decades from an A1 + FD glass, EOS-1 + EF glass, Several D series digital bodies and several C series cameras including a C300 mk2. Do you know what I think of your EOS R line ? I just bought a FujiFilm XT3 because it delivers the goods, no excuses especially on the video side. I won't waste my time complaining because its clear you don't want to change your ways. I"ll just move my purchases to other companies willing to give their best value to their customers. Thanks, good luck.
 

slclick

5D Mark V
Dec 17, 2013
2,790
214
I wonder how important ergonomics, color, menu ease of use and lens selection mean to people any longer? Those are my reasons for staying with the Canon Ecosystem.

I have looked into jumping ship, tried a couple other brands as supplementary/travel cameras and each time those things listed above were boxes the other companies simply could not check.

I can't imagine giving them up for video features and a stop of DR.
 
Reactions: stevelee

davidhfe

EOS T7i
Sep 9, 2015
50
15
I wonder how important ergonomics, color, menu ease of use and lens selection mean to people any longer? Those are my reasons for staying with the Canon Ecosystem.

I have looked into jumping ship, tried a couple other brands as supplementary/travel cameras and each time those things listed above were boxes the other companies simply could not check.

I can't imagine giving them up for video features and a stop of DR.
Sony's ergonomics/reliability are catching up faster than Canon is catching up in terms of features. I used an A7S for a shoot and was instantly appalled by the feel. A few years later, I played around with an A9 and was impressed. Sony now has a solid stables of lenses that cover 80%+ of what most shooters need: Fast zooms options in the "standard" ranges and a few faster primes in the "right" focal lengths (eg 85mm).

I generally love my 5D4, but I miss more shots due to a totally unstabilized system with the 24-70, lack of eye-af (I am a hobbyist do not tell me to lrn2focus) or frame rate (when shooting sports) than I would due to Sony's color management. I also sigh when people say "hey, can you shoot a quick video for us with your big camera?" because I know it means reformatting CF cards to side step file size limits, penciling in some time to transcode the unwieldy format, and (to a lesser extend) re-learning all my focal lengths to adjust for a 1.7 crop. I keep hearing amazing things from the rumor pipeline, but Canon really hasn't delivered yet on the things I care about for my next camera in 1-2 years. The RF mount has already got me holding off on lens purchases (Was going to buy a 100-400 but will just rent it for the time being) and Canon's continued WEIRD product segmentation decisions are just throwing fuel onto that fire.
 
Reactions: Etienne and Kharan

mb66energy

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 18, 2011
1,142
110
Germany
www.MichaelBockhorst.de
The reasoning behind this cameras insane:

4K video/Mic port/headphone jack: check! But no DPAF with EF-S lenses in 1080p. In fact, no 1080p at all with those lenses! What?!

Yet, you CAN get 4K with EF-S lenses and 1080p with DPAF with EF-S lenses in a subframe body in the M50. Alas, no headphone jack. What?!

That my friends, make no sense at all. Unless you're a Canon beancounter.
That reflects my feelings: I was glad to reuse the 10-22 for video because it is a 16-35 and for me a well known crop factor. I thought it was one of the reasons to put the RP on the market: APS-Users.

And I am counting beans since ~ 8 years: I am buying only cameras in the lower price segment because they are good enough and the cameras in the higher price segment are to heavy / do have unneeded features. I need solid 3fps - every 2 years - nothing more. But I want a clean compatible set of features that are standard in the rest of the Canon world.
 
Reactions: EduPortas

jayphotoworks

EOS 80D
Aug 11, 2016
163
34
I was impressed with the RP specs when it launched. I thought that seeing 4K, 422 8bit, C-AF Eye-AF was a good sign for the upcoming flagship in terms of specs as I was certain the RP was going to top out at 1080p. Initial tests show similar rolling shutter to the EOS R and 5DIV, which I expected and no DPAF @ 4K which I also expected. What I was most surprised by how the camera locks you in at 720p when you use EF-S lenses.. I didn't even know about that until it was mentioned by CR...
 
Reactions: crazyrunner33

Kathode-Ray

Shoot, shoot, shoot!
Jun 29, 2012
66
2
I wonder how important ergonomics, color, menu ease of use and lens selection mean to people any longer? Those are my reasons for staying with the Canon Ecosystem.

I have looked into jumping ship, tried a couple other brands as supplementary/travel cameras and each time those things listed above were boxes the other companies simply could not check.

I can't imagine giving them up for video features and a stop of DR.
Exactly! I've tried Sony and Nikon, but within two minutes, I am fighting with the ergonomics and the menu system. Button placement, icons and menu layout are exactly opposite to what I find logical, so these cameras are not for me. For example, turning the lens clockwise to unlock it, really?? That will be something I will curse on every time I use such a camera.
 

stevelee

FT-QL
Jul 6, 2017
958
130
Davidson, NC
My guess is that their research showed that folks buying entry-level cameras hardly ever shoot video at 24 fps, and hardly any of those who do would miss it if it isn't there.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,152
431
They are competitive but they still trail behind Nikon (D850) and Sony.
They really don't trail behind on ISO. FF sensors are almost all within a fraction of a stop of each other, and there are examples of Canon models being better than Sony models. To give an example, the 'old and busted' 6D2 sensor is much better at high ISO than the 'new hotness' A72 sensor, and they were contemporaries. It's also pretty close to the A73 sensor which is much newer. Another example: people assume every Sony sensor has higher DR than every Canon sensor, but the 5D4 sensor actually out performs several of the A7 bodies that have shipped. (The current 3rd gen matches the D8x0's.)

On DR the difference between the 5D IV and D8x0/A73 generation is pretty small. From a practical standpoint it's a little bit of NR in post. The main "problem" for stills shooters at the moment is that with Canon you can choose high MP (5Ds/sr) or high DR (5D4), but not both. (Though 30 MP is nothing to sneeze at.)

Canon also trail in multiple area such eyeAF, 4K, video features, no IBIS.
With the exception of IBIS, that all comes down to readout speeds. I don't know if they need further fab improvements, if their engineers are struggling with the required circuitry, or if accountants are really forcing them to use a lower cost/larger feature fab line to make money. But they absolutely have to overcome that hurdle. Yes, there are other important things like color, ergonomics, and weather sealing/durability. Yes, they dominate on lenses. Yes, they continue to hold the #1 market position. But they can't hold off the competition forever with poor sensor readout speeds.

Incidentally, it dawned on me that Sony is at the limits of their readout speeds in some respects. Otherwise there wouldn't be a 1.2x crop at 4k30p on the A73. We are asking for state of the art features here, and Canon doesn't have to be that far behind at the circuit level to make impossible the things we want like FF 4k.

I wonder if Canon will improve upon those in their EOS R Pro or competitions will make up on the area of deficiency that Canon excel (ergonomic, touch screen menu, etc). Interesting time ahead.
In theory, now that Sony has solid AF, they should be able to solve all outstanding complaints in one generation. How hard is it to adjust ergonomics and a touch screen?

In practice their engineers just don't get it when it comes to certain things, so I don't know if they'll ever be solved. Canon has always been a photography company so their engineers get it. Sony is what you get when an engineer who is not a photographer surveys photographers and designs a camera. Canon is what you get when a photographer designs a camera.

I have no idea what's holding Canon up on the hardware side so it's hard to say how long it will take them to overcome it. The interview with Canon execs and the RF lens announcements leads me to think (hope?) that they're only a year out (or less) from their next generation sensors.

FWIW, thinking about chip wars over the decades (CPUs and GPUs), it often seems like one company is 'down and out' for a few years, only to come back and leapfrog the competition. Canon could upgrade their fabs and next thing you know 4k120p full width FF readout. You never know.
 
Reactions: sdz and bokehmon22

davidhfe

EOS T7i
Sep 9, 2015
50
15
With the exception of IBIS, that all comes down to readout speeds
Boiling those features down to "it's just readout speed" has some truth, but it's really reductive. It's the chip architecture, having the fab capability to do it and do it cost effectively, the processor and god knows what interconnects and then actually implementing the features (like eye tracking) in software/firmware to work reliably. I mean how many years of engineering to both Nikon and Canon have behind their PDAF+metering sensor motion tracking algorithms?