Canon, Canon Canon….. Please help the video stars

sdz

EOS 80D
Sep 13, 2016
158
87
Pittsburgh, PA
I think it's just the opposite. Photographers who are loyal to the Canon brand, and who want to continue to be Canon users, are upset that Canon management very purposefully omits features that are standard with other manufacturers. We can speculate forever about their motives, but the bottom line is that Canon users can reasonably feel that they arent' getting the best value for money.
You made my point, but stated it differently.
 

stevelee

FT-QL
Jul 6, 2017
1,044
164
Davidson, NC
There is 24 fps on your phone, but 30 and 60 is the way to go on a phone most of the time. As previously mentioned, 24 fps allows you to use motion blur by setting your shutter around 1/40-1/60(180 degree shutter rule). Since we're not carrying around neutral density with us at all times, 30 and 60 is a better choice to avoid the stutter look(see below).
Not on my phone. It is a 6S, and I’m not paying $1,000 or so to upgrade the phone to get 24fps.:p

I looked, and it does have 240 fps at 720p and only 30 fps at 4K. 1020p will do 30 or 60.
 

bokehmon22

EOS RP
Oct 31, 2016
347
186
The only thing Canon will listen to is poor sales. I switched to Fuji 3 months ago. It’s not full frame but the camera does what I need a camera to do in 2019 and the image and colors are fantastic. Bye Canon. I’m done with your lazy innovation and intentional crippling of technology. I should of switched a long time ago but I held off for the Eos-R. After that announcement I made the decision to switch. Bye. I’m done with you.
I am seeing the writing on the wall too. They could add dual card slot, but it would cannibalize 5D IV sales. They could add better video features, but it could cannibalize EOS R sales.

I suspect the same with EOS R Pro. They could have such and such, but it would cannibalize DSLR/cinema line sale. The RF lenses are nice but it is also very expensive. It's not like third party alternative for 14-200mm are bad either.

I'll keep an open mind on Panasonic S1 and Sony A7SIII/A9R.
 
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bokehmon22

EOS RP
Oct 31, 2016
347
186
Market segmentation pure & simple. Don't like the video spec. buy a video camera.
Some of the basic features should be standard. I don't think it's asking too much for 24p in HD. A feature found in all modern camera. I don't even shoot video but I think it's a step backward for consumer.

We are looking for convergent of multiple products to simplify our life. Imagine a smart phone company saying phone is only for calling and texting.

If you want to watch YouTube, Netflix, play game, surf the net, social media get a dedicate entertainment device for each specific task.
 
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cpreston

EOS T7i
Mar 22, 2014
83
25
I am surprised that nobody on here is complaining that the R cameras can't recognize the cinema lenses. I mean, this is the clearest sign that Canon is intentionally crippling their mirrorless cameras to protect their cinema line. All those people that go out and order the RP and the cine-servo 17-120 are going to be pissed when they find out that their ideal filmmaking set-up isn't going to work out for them.
 

cpreston

EOS T7i
Mar 22, 2014
83
25
Some of the basic features should be standard. I don't think it's asking too much for 24p in HD. A feature found in all modern camera. I don't even shoot video but I think it's a step backward for consumer.

We are looking for convergent of multiple products to simplify our life. Imagine a smart phone company saying phone is only for calling and texting.

If you want to watch YouTube, Netflix, play game, surf the net, social media get a dedicate entertainment device for each specific task.
If you actually care about the quality of your 1080p footage, you are going to shoot in 4K
 

bokehmon22

EOS RP
Oct 31, 2016
347
186
I am surprised that nobody on here is complaining that the R cameras can't recognize the cinema lenses. I mean, this is the clearest sign that Canon is intentionally crippling their mirrorless cameras to protect their cinema line. All those people that go out and order the RP and the CN-E 17-120 are going to be pissed when they find out that their ideal filmmaking set-up isn't going to work out for them.
No one is expecting top end video features for $1300 camera like 4K 60p, 10 bit, RAW recording or cinema lenses. No one complain about it.

24p in HD and 4K DPAF isn't asking alot.

You are just being silly in defending Canon. I don't shoot videos and can see through the BS Canon did to protect EOS R sale.
 
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cpreston

EOS T7i
Mar 22, 2014
83
25
No one is expecting top end video features for $1300 camera like 4K 60p, 10 bit, RAW recording or cinema lenses. No one complain about it.

24p in HD and 4K DPAF isn't asking alot.

You are just being silly in defending Canon. I don't shoot videos and can see through the BS Canon did to protect EOS R sale.
I do shoot video. I couldn't care less about the RP video features. Video is an extremely capital intensive business. Canon is trying to sell expensive video lenses. From a business segmentation aspect, it makes sense that they aren't concerned with appeasing this theoretical group of videographers who can't spare $1000 to buy the mirrorless camera with the features that they think they want. Canon is trying to sell lenses that are 10x the cost of the camera.

I think it is kind of dumb from a marketing aspect to leave the 24p off of the camera. The targeted market for the camera is not going to care. In fact, that market of people will be pleasantly surprised at how nice and smooth their footage looks on the camera compared to the previous camera they had that was set to shoot 24p by default. But there is enough of this very small but very vocal minority of DSLR video enthusiasts who will make a stink online and convince the people in the intended market for the camera that the camera is incapable of getting "cinematic" footage of their kid playing in their back yard. Canon should have just included the 24p just so that people would have one less thing to complain about.

Of course, this very small group of DSLR video enthusiasts would still find something to complain about with Canon, since that is just the narrative at this point. It has been ever since the original sin of Canon following up the 5D with the over priced 1DC.

I am only defending Canon in the sense that I think the people whining about video in Canon's photo cameras are missing the bigger picture. And the bigger picture is that the people who care about 24p vs 30p in their photo camera are an insignificant portion of Canon's market.
 
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bokehmon22

EOS RP
Oct 31, 2016
347
186
I do shoot video. I couldn't care less about the RP video features. Video is an extremely capital intensive business. Canon is trying to sell expensive video lenses. From a business segmentation aspect, it makes sense that they aren't concerned with appeasing this theoretical group of videographers who can't spare $1000 to buy the mirrorless camera with the features that they think they want. Canon is trying to sell lenses that are 10x the cost of the camera.

I think it is kind of dumb from a marketing aspect to leave the 24p off of the camera. The targeted market for the camera is not going to care. In fact, that market of people will be pleasantly surprised at how nice and smooth their footage looks on the camera compared to the previous camera they had that was set to shoot 24p by default. But there is enough of this very small but very vocal minority of DSLR video enthusiasts who will make a stink online and convince the people in the intended market for the camera that the camera is incapable of getting "cinematic" footage of their kid playing in their back yard. Canon should have just included the 24p just so that people would have one less thing to complain about.

Of course, this very small group of DSLR video enthusiasts would still find something to complain about with Canon, since that is just the narrative at this point. It has been ever since the original sin of Canon following up the 5D with the over priced 1DC.

I am only defending Canon in the sense that I think the people whining about video in Canon's photo cameras are missing the bigger picture. And the bigger picture is that the people who care about 24p vs 30p in their photo camera are an insignificant portion of Canon's market.
I'm all about giving the consumers choices especially for low end feature like 24p. You may not need it, but someone will. Who care what they use it for. If enabling a low feature like this will generate more sales, why wouldn't you leave it in other than market segmentation.

People are going to complain about everything these days. I criticize Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic all the same. Panasonic S1 is the only company I complain the least and it's due to lens prices and slightly bigger camera than I would like but similiar to 5D IV.

Canon just irrationally omit basic feature like 24p or DPAF in 4K that it's enough to drive people mad. They could make this even more successful camera with that price point, but didn't. They could have offer dual card slot and joystick for people who don't like touch screen AF for EOS R, but didn't. It's definitely intentionally marketing decision more than technical limitation.
 
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I was really looking forward to being able to use this body as a dedicated video tool, as a second camera to my C100mk2. I've invested years developing muscle memory with my DSLRs and prefer to have completely separate video gear for video, so I'm not worried about remembering to change settings or having that momentary bit of confusion about whether or not I'm shooting stills or video. This seemed like it was going to be a really good solution to use as a 2nd camera for two camera interviews (the "wide" camera, recording 4K so I can crop later if necessary) but also to put on a gimbal or slider. I'm guessing that the firmware update will come with 24 fps, but until then I'll have to stick to the Sony A7riii...
 

sdz

EOS 80D
Sep 13, 2016
158
87
Pittsburgh, PA
I do shoot video. I couldn't care less about the RP video features. Video is an extremely capital intensive business. Canon is trying to sell expensive video lenses. From a business segmentation aspect, it makes sense that they aren't concerned with appeasing this theoretical group of videographers who can't spare $1000 to buy the mirrorless camera with the features that they think they want. Canon is trying to sell lenses that are 10x the cost of the camera.

I think it is kind of dumb from a marketing aspect to leave the 24p off of the camera....

I am only defending Canon in the sense that I think the people whining about video in Canon's photo cameras are missing the bigger picture. And the bigger picture is that the people who care about 24p vs 30p in their photo camera are an insignificant portion of Canon's market. {emphasis added}
A few lines of code enables 24P. This is a virtually costless improvement. It is an indefensible ommission. That's the gist of the criticism of Canon's new camera.
 

PureClassA

Canon since age 5. The A1
Aug 15, 2014
1,611
184
Mandeville, LA
Shields-Photography.com
Round and round with this. Look, it’s 2019 and if you are going to include video in a camera body there are minimal basic features that everyone does. 1080@24 is about as basic as it gets.

Again, there are LOTS of perfectly understandable variances in terms of video feature loss going down the R to the RP already without removing a bare bones function like this.

For $1299 you dont get the great DPAF in 4k, dont get C Log, dont get 10bit out, etc...

I get that some folks dont ever do video, but imagine if Canon had removed Servo AF when using high speed shooting to differentiate even more from the R? That would be REALLY weird and totally unnecessary even at $1299. That’s the perspective. It’s a basic normal function of any camera. Those arent the sort of functions you cut, and there’s no real good excuse for it.
 
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jvillain

EOS T7i
Sep 29, 2018
57
45
I think it is kind of dumb from a marketing aspect to leave the 24p off of the camera. The targeted market for the camera is not going to care.
I have read a lot of posts along these lines and I agree with the first sentence. The second sentence maybe/maybe not. I see 3 target audiences.

Newby mom/pop just getting into the market. What these people really don't care about is full freaking frame. What they do care about is ease of use, cost, size/weight and can it take a good enough picture to suite their needs. I would argue that any camera has good enough picture quality these days to suite this group. But this group doesn't have a mountain of glass sitting on their shelf. The price of the glass is going to scare the ____ out of them. So they are free to look at any thing on the market. For them the XT30 is far more compelling on every front as are several other cameras not made by Canon. Yes Canon will sell more RPs than they sell 1DXs but this group is going to be looking to others to help them make their buying decision and every where they turn they are going to be reading or watching that this is the Edsel of cameras. Because of this I think sales of this body are going to fail to meet expectations of Canon brass.

The next is the APS-C crowd. Restricting the use of APS-C lenses on this thing is an interesting idea if your are trying to get this crowd to step up to FF. The RP would be a considerable step down from my 80D and the 7D guys will say the same thing. I have never bought into the idea that your junk grows 3 sizes the day you buy a FF camera. So his is a tough sell for the APS-C crowd. The R might make sense for me to move to as my second camera if it wasn't $3000 body only in Canada. Unless there is an apoligy from the head of the camera division at Canon when he hands in his resignation the RP has convinced me that Canon really won't come out with a mirrorless version of either the 80D or the 7D. Except for my first camera I have always shot Canon but I am not waiting 3 to 4 years to see if maybe Canon might come out with some thing for me.

The last group is the pros looking for a second shooter. For them there might be a few that bite but if you can afford a a 5DIV and the associated glass you probably already have a back up camera that is way better than this PoS.

One last thing. Closing the shutter when you are removing the lens shouldn't be a feature. It should just be Canon policy as I am sure it will be every where else shortly. I know Canons BS about not wanting people to wreck their camera by touching the shutter. But how does Canon feel aouut some one that would do that digging aound in their camera to clean the sensor? Or worse not understanding what the problem is even though they clean the lenses over an over, becoming frustrated and switching back to their cell phone. Closing the shutter on mirror-less should be the policy at Canon full stop. Heads need to roll.
 
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RayValdez360

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2012
312
97
In general Canon gives what the target buyers need most. Not everyone needs 4K@60p, hell not everyone needs 4K in the first place. I have only tried to take some videos of may daughter in 4K and gave up after I saw how much space they take. Just neat 1080p video is what I want. With the articulated touch screen and DualPixel AF, Canon's 1080p video implementation is one of the best for casual shooters. That may be why most Canon users are happy with what they have.
which camera though did you record in 4k for . also for this camera it doesn't have 1080 24p. which is the stardard for films or filmic video. they might add it later but the omission of that is a true slap in the face. never let those in power totally dictate what you need. brands create standards. competition creates more standards. when "your guys" don't try to live up to others standards or do what the competition does( ifiti works properly), then you have to question them and let them know, we will not accept whatever you give it to us. It's Just common sense when it comes to CONSUMERS (ALL OF US) getting what we want if it is possible. I don't know about you guys but I never been apologetic for big businesses. I didn't mean to call these peopel relics, but someone has to get on their asses.
 

transpo1

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 12, 2011
723
74
I've never preordered and cancelled a camera so fast. The video features are a complete joke. Canon obviously doesn't care to lead in this space for now as they could if they wanted to. They need to get back to the mentality they had when they released the 70D.
And the mentality they had when they enabled 1080 HD video in the 5DII that creates the HDSLR world.

FF 4K (no crop) with DPAF and C-Log would make me switch back to Canon right away from my current Fuji X-T3 excursion. Until they stop cannibalizing the video on these models, I’ll hold off buying an R mount.
 

bhf3737

---
Sep 9, 2015
392
300
Calgary, Canada
www.flickr.com
It's definitely intentionally marketing decision more than technical limitation.
In this thread I have seen several comments repeating again and again that "marketing decision are the limiting factor for this and that" and most of the time "market decision limits delivering a feature that I want". So many are asking how those decisions are being made and concluding that perhaps there is some stupidity/conspiracy involved on the corporate side to arrive at those insane decisions.

Any Marketing 101 course, will tell you that market segmentation is based on 4 basic rules and corporations (including Canon) are presumably following these rules.
Rule 1: Base segmentation on data not intuition
Rule 2: Segmentation entails dividing customers into distinct groups. Meaning that the same customer do not belong to two segments.
Rule 3: Segmentation properties; accessibility and size is appropriate for having a solid customer base.
Rule 4: Use different metrics, marketing strategy (and tactics) for each segment.

But what we see in some comments here are:
1. The comments are mostly based on intuition not solid data, e.g. "I know better than Canon about including/deleting feature X" or "It's definitely intentionally marketing decision", etc. (violation of Rule 1).
2. Those who provide commenters do belong to a different segment (enthusiasts, semi-pros, etc., rather then the beginners who are the target of the RP camera) and paint the product from their own perspective. Actually we have not seen any comment from a real beginner here so far, have we? Examples of those comments are "it should have feature X because I want it" or "feature X is essential but it is left out of this product", etc. (violation of Rule 1, 2).

But from corporate perspective, it seems that they are doing their homework well, perhaps not perfect. They have more data about their customers, market size and rival products than you and me. They offer products for each segment according to their understanding of the market, and not for the needs of you and me. By doing so, they have ensured size and solidity of their customer base, with measurable targets, i.e. market share and profitability.

Conclusion: Marketing decisions are not that superficial that you may think. If this product does not offer features you want/need, move on, there is a good probability that the product is not meant for you. You shouldn't worry about the wellness of the company. Let the company deal with its own market, rival companies, benefits and losses.