Canon Cinema EOS C300 Mark II replacement to have 8K option [CR1]

Canon Rumors Guy

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We’re told that Canon will update the Cinema EOS C300 Mark II in 2019, with NAB 2019 in April being the most logical place to showcase the new camera.
We’re told again that the Cinema EOS C300 Mark III (as we’re going to call it) will launch as a 4K camera, but that there will be an 8K “upgrade” option. What that would entail is unknown at this time.
Canon has admitted they were slow to adopt 4K and that they wouldn’t make the same mistake again. That said, is 8K really ready for mass adoption? Probably not. But a likely high cost, low yield upgrade on a popular camera could be the way to be one of the first few companies with an 8K option for the people that want it.
The same source did say that an RF mount Cinema EOS camera was in development, but likely won’t be part of the 2019 roadmap. Even though the EF/RF adapters are superb, it probably makes more sense to wait until there are more native RF mount lenses.
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sdz

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8K cameras now exist. Canon will only join the group of companies that provide 8K cameras and will provide 8K cameras. This news is good, but was inevitable given the need for 8K cameras by 2020.
 
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bgoyette

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I was tuning into a CML discussion last night, and an interesting topic was that Arri's new LPL mount is essentially a large diameter, short flange mount like RF, one that replaces the aging PL mount for their new FF cameras. I think Canon is in a unique position as it has a working set of adapters for it's EF line, so there's not really a reason for them to delay adaption of the RF mount for video...if anything it's the opposite. If they are truly wanting to be on the front side of the next wave, 8k is probably less important than FF (although certainly 8k on a FF sensor is where it's going to be headed), and the RF mount is tailor made for any advancements in FF lens technology. Also, RF lenses not being backwards compatible with EF mount cameras, essentially short circuits any "new" attraction that new EF mount cameras would have. One of the points the Arri Rep brought up in the discussion was that the short flange distance and large mount diameter on the LPL lenses affected CA dramatically, and specifically allowed Arri to produce lenses with literally NO breathing. Canon's designers certainly are aware of this. What will remain to be seen is whether Canon will bring these lenses in at generally modest (for cinema lenses) pricing versus Arri's 20k+ per prime.
 
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justaCanonuser

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I think for the cinema market Canon has to offer an 8K option asap, Arri, Panasonic, Red etc. already do. But for the consumer and prosumer market first they have to come up with competitive 4K offerings quickly, otherwise they are threatened to lose substantial ILC market shares to Sony and even Nikon. Nikon's Z series offer real FF 4K video, luckily for Canon Nikon's current video AF performance lags behind Canon and Sony.
 

bgoyette

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I think for the cinema market Canon has to offer an 8K option asap, Arri, Panasonic, Red etc. already do. But for the consumer and prosumer market first they have to come up with competitive 4K offerings quickly, otherwise they are threatened to lose substantial ILC market shares to Sony and even Nikon. Nikon's Z series offer real FF 4K video, luckily for Canon Nikon's current video AF performance lags behind Canon and Sony.
Neither Arri nor Panasonic offer 8k cinema cameras. Sony makes an 8k broadcast camera, and Panasonic has an 8k concept in what looks like a security/industrial form factor. Sony has the 5 year old f65 which technically has an 8k sensor although it’s a novel approach that really gives a better 4K signal. That leaves RED as the only major with an 8k camera in the cinema market, which is pretty much red’s brand. (As soon as everyone has an 8k, red will have a 12k.

As for Canon and consumer 4K.. there certainly is room for improvement, but really most of the industry have compromised 4K in this space. Only Fuji and Panasonic are offering 10bit internal.. which is really the only thing that matters. While Nikon and Sony are selling a full frame options, both are hampered by unimpressive codecs and bit depth.
 
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justaCanonuser

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Neither Arri nor Panasonic offer 8k cinema cameras. Sony makes an 8k broadcast camera, and Panasonic has an 8k concept in what looks like a security/industrial form factor. Sony has the 5 year old f65 which technically has an 8k sensor although it’s a novel approach that really gives a better 4K signal. That leaves RED as the only major with an 8k camera in the cinema market, which is pretty much red’s brand. (As soon as everyone has an 8k, red will have a 12k.
With Arri I was indeed wrong, I thought that they have introduced an 8K Alexa recently... Is the Panasonic AK-SHB810 only for security applications?
 

bgoyette

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Feb 6, 2015
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With Arri I was indeed wrong, I thought that they have introduced an 8K Alexa recently... Is the Panasonic AK-SHB810 only for security applications?
This is the camera I was referencing above. It doesn't seem to have a actual stated use, and most references have talked about it more as a demonstration of the organic sensor, or a "concept". I'm not sure you can actually buy one. It's definitely not a cinema camera with that honking processing unit connected by a fiber optic cable. The demonstration images all seem to look like it would be sold in the security space. If we're talking Cinema purposed 8k demo cameras, Canon demoed theirs I think 3 years ago...a C300 mark II with an 8k sensor and a bunch of cables running off of it tied into 4 recorders. They've had it every year at NAB since then. I believe this year they suggested that it's close to being an actual product....so we'll see.

Edit: here's a link to a video on the current state of Canon 8k Technology. They displayed a working prototype with internal processing this fall, with Canon saying that the 2020 olympics is when we'd see this technology promoted (of course this is really the broadcast side). Personally, I'd be surprised to see 8k make it's way to the c300 mark III this year. If canon were asking me what I'd want..it would be 6k, something that would give the best quality 4k, as that's all that really matters. If they could do that, and pull the FF sensor out of the C700FF and package it up with internal recording, they'd have people talking about Canon in the cinema space again.

https://www.cinema5d.com/canons-upcoming-8k-camera-concept-explanation/
 
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justaCanonuser

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This is the camera I was referencing above. It doesn't seem to have a actual stated use, and most references have talked about it more as a demonstration of the organic sensor, or a "concept"...
Sorry for the delayed reply, I was very busy, and thank you for all this interesting information. I remember I've seen some years ago an image of Canon's 8K cable monster.

Re the Panasonic 8k camera for me the really interesting info is that it has an "organic sensor". When I have a bit time I try to find more information about that. Sounds like they applied organic LED technology to create organic pixels. In principle that's possible, no question, since a photodiode is a sort of inverse LED. The question is: does such an organic sensor technology bring in some advances that are really attractive? Production technology is different and less energy consuming, but I am sure that this wouldn't drive camera makers to change to organic sensors. The main advantage of organic LEDs that paved their way to success in the market is that they beat their direct competition, LCD screens, because LCD technology can use only 50 % of the light of the backlit LED. Currently I can't imagine that an organic sensor tech would come with such a huge advantage, but there must be a reason for the Panny engineers to test this technology. Panasonic has always been quite good in pioneering work, including the first ML camera system in the market.
 

justaCanonuser

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Here is some information about Panasonic's organic sensor:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/organic-sensors-are-finally-coming-panasonic/
https://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/panasonic-global-shutter-organic-sensor-is-an-industry-first/

Panasonic's own press infos aren't very detailed yet. But I guess from what I read that the organic layer mentioned there simply said is one big organic photodiode covering the whole sensor, which the conventional silicon electronics layer (I guess MOS technology) below divides into single pixels and does on-chip processing. It is a bit of a similar design used for OLED screens that overcomes the challenge to make very small organic pixels, since organic electronics can't be structured with conventional photolithographic processes. But that's what I read between the lines. Would be interesting to learn more about the physical properties of the organic photodiode.

OLEDs are brillant light sources, so inverting their principle may give better photodiodes than CMOS technology can achieve. Silicon semiconductors aren't ideal because they can't transform visible light directly into electrical signals anyway, this has to happen with intermediate steps in the material which cause losses (Si is a so-called indirect semiconductor). So such organic sensors really may be able to cover a much higher dynamic range. Very interesting move by Fujifilm and Panasonic. If both manage to establish such a superior sensor technology with stable production quality in the market, they surely would force Sony and Canon to invest substantially into their sensor production lines.
 
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justaCanonuser

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