Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

[mkabi]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

Updating the 5DS and 5DSR makes perfect sense to me...

Once the 5D4 comes out, canon wants to continue to sell 5DS and 5DSRs... If some one looks at the differences between the 5D4 and 5DS/5DSR... They don't want people to choose the 5D4 every damn time...

If 5D4 is chosen every time.... Might as well stop the 5DS/5DSR production right now...

As for the 18MP vs 12MP debate... If Canon is going to copy another company... I'd rather them copying panasonic's 16MP than Sony's 12MP... As well as drop this UHD crap... And support cinema4K.

 

[Jesse]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

LOL you can't write the "f word" on here?

.....

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

Updating the 5DS and 5DSR makes perfect sense to me...

Once the 5D4 comes out, canon wants to continue to sell 5DS and 5DSRs... If some one looks at the differences between the 5D4 and 5DS/5DSR... They don't want people to choose the 5D4 every damn time...

If 5D4 is chosen every time.... Might as well stop the 5DS/5DSR production right now...

Sure, but that won't happen. People who need 50 MP will buy a 5DS / 5DS R and people who need a 1-2 stops more high ISO or +2-3 more FPS will get a 5D4. There is a natural segmentation you get just from the spec sheet.

I would be stunned -- stunned -- if Canon put something so gamechanging in the 5D4 outside of the basic powertrain sort of specs (high ISO / fps / MP / AF system) that people who need super high MP would give it up for a lower res rig.

Slick new features happen all the time (the 70D got DPAF, the 7D2 got anti-flicker and some viewfinder upgrades, etc.) but they aren't so exciting as to have you say:

"Well, I thought I needed high MP the most, but doggone it, the offering of onboard LTE and integral 'Dump to the Cloud' / 'Dump to Instagram' buttons are sufficiently awesome that I now no longer am enticed by resolving power. High MP sensors are so 2015. :"

The only single feature I could see that tectonically re-aligns the entire brand's segment preference like that is 4k. No matter what your preference on it is: love it, must have it, don't need it but would like it for future proofing, can't stand it, I only shoot stills, etc. -- that feature sells cameras.

- A

 

[sleepnever]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

I love my 5D3 for a great all around camera. The ISO performance is really damn good (though shadow recovery w/ the banding could be improved). I'm hoping the 5D4 warrants an upgrade from my 3, but at less MP, that won't even be an option.

Again, happy with the low light performance as is, but would like to see a jump to ~28MP. When I'm not photographing the kids or going to the zoo for fun, I'm doing landscapes and a drop in MP would mean I wouldn't upgrade. On the flip side, I can't afford or justify owning a 5DSR *just* for landscape photography that don't yet bring any money in. SO, I really hope Canon makes the 5D4 with some solid upgrades and a slight MP jump. I'd love the extra resolution without going nuts.

 

[JonAustin]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

LOL you can't write the "f word" on here?

Even if you could, do you really think you should? Is it really necessary? Isn't the culture already crude enough?

Back on topic:

I'm all for an 18MP 5DIV; I'm even willing to tolerate the included video features -- whatever they might be -- even though I'd be just as happy if it had no video capabilities at all, even though I know that'll never happen.

I would prefer to buy a 2nd 5DIII rather than a 5DIV, if the MP count is substantially higher (i.e., anything higher than 24MP).

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

I'm all for an 18MP 5DIV; I'm even willing to tolerate the included video features -- whatever they might be -- even though I'd be just as happy if it had no video capabilities at all, even though I know that'll never happen.

I would prefer to buy a 2nd 5DIII rather than a 5DIV, if the MP count is substantially higher (i.e., anything higher than 24MP).

There seem to be three camps on the 5D4 with stills:

• The purists: those that adore their 5D3 and just want their 22 MP to do more -- either better in high ISO, perhaps more DR at low ISO, etc. But their message is clear: keep the pixel count around where it is to deliver the best possible IQ/noise performance.
  
  
  
• The pixel peepers: these folks want the product to put up big numbers on a spec-sheet that say 'best in class', top dog, etc. Put a big number here (nut not so big as to take out the legs of the 5DS models), say 36 MP. More MP = more detail, = more competitive with the D750s and D810s of the world, = less buyers' remorse when competitive company X offers more pixels at the same price point, etc.
  
  
  
• The pragmatists: those that recognize neither the purists nor the pixel peepers will get what they want. Canon will do that evolution-not-revolution thing they do so well and give a small MP bump (we keep hearing 28 MP) alongside key value-add features (anti-flicker, slight bump in burst rate, the 1DX II's AF setup, etc.) to get the 5D3 camp to upgrade.
  

I tend to think of the purists as dreaming, the pixel-peepers as petty, and the pragmatists as boring.

I am split. My 'want' is that of the purists, but my expectation of Canon is clearly with the pragmatists' view.

- A

 

[Stu_bert]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

I'm all for an 18MP 5DIV; I'm even willing to tolerate the included video features -- whatever they might be -- even though I'd be just as happy if it had no video capabilities at all, even though I know that'll never happen.

I would prefer to buy a 2nd 5DIII rather than a 5DIV, if the MP count is substantially higher (i.e., anything higher than 24MP).

There seem to be three camps on the 5D4 with stills:

• The purists: those that adore their 5D3 and just want their 22 MP to do more -- either better in high ISO, perhaps more DR at low ISO, etc. But their message is clear: keep the pixel count around where it is to deliver the best possible IQ/noise performance.
  
  
  
• The pixel peepers: these folks want the product to put up big numbers on a spec-sheet that say 'best in class', top dog, etc. Put a big number here (nut not so big as to take out the legs of the 5DS models), say 36 MP. More MP = more detail, = more competitive with the D750s and D810s of the world, = less buyers' remorse when competitive company X offers more pixels at the same price point, etc.
  
  
  
• The pragmatists: those that recognize neither the purists nor the pixel peepers will get what they want. Canon will do that evolution-not-revolution thing they do so well and give a small MP bump (we keep hearing 28 MP) alongside key value-add features (anti-flicker, slight bump in burst rate, the 1DX II's AF setup, etc.) to get the 5D3 camp to upgrade.
  

I tend to think of the purists as dreaming, the pixel-peepers as petty, and the pragmatists as boring.

I am split. My 'want' is that of the purists, but my expectation of Canon is clearly with the pragmatists' view.

- A

Which is why there is a lot of support for them releasing more than one model...

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

I'm all for an 18MP 5DIV; I'm even willing to tolerate the included video features -- whatever they might be -- even though I'd be just as happy if it had no video capabilities at all, even though I know that'll never happen.

I would prefer to buy a 2nd 5DIII rather than a 5DIV, if the MP count is substantially higher (i.e., anything higher than 24MP).

There seem to be three camps on the 5D4 with stills:

• The purists: those that adore their 5D3 and just want their 22 MP to do more -- either better in high ISO, perhaps more DR at low ISO, etc. But their message is clear: keep the pixel count around where it is to deliver the best possible IQ/noise performance.
  
  
  
• The pixel peepers: these folks want the product to put up big numbers on a spec-sheet that say 'best in class', top dog, etc. Put a big number here (nut not so big as to take out the legs of the 5DS models), say 36 MP. More MP = more detail, = more competitive with the D750s and D810s of the world, = less buyers' remorse when competitive company X offers more pixels at the same price point, etc.
  
  
  
• The pragmatists: those that recognize neither the purists nor the pixel peepers will get what they want. Canon will do that evolution-not-revolution thing they do so well and give a small MP bump (we keep hearing 28 MP) alongside key value-add features (anti-flicker, slight bump in burst rate, the 1DX II's AF setup, etc.) to get the 5D3 camp to upgrade.
  

I tend to think of the purists as dreaming, the pixel-peepers as petty, and the pragmatists as boring.

I am split. My 'want' is that of the purists, but my expectation of Canon is clearly with the pragmatists' view.

- A

Which is why there is a lot of support for them releasing more than one model...

Not for a 5D4, though -- we're just expecting one of those, right?

5DS / R = high res

5D4 = all-around model, mid-level res + higher framerate

'5Dc' = low res / low light / video a la the A7S line

Isn't that the latest read of things?

- A

 

[infared]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

I definitely will not adopt a 5DMarkIV on intro no matter what is has or can do. I bought my 5DIII on intro for $3400...and now they can be had for sub $1800.... So...I am very interested to see what the new sensor tech may be as I am waiting to be impressed!....I love my 5DIII so much (I sold a 40"x60" print 30 days ago)...I will just wait a year or two with the new model until the price really drops down to something sensible if it's a camera I think that I "need" to own. (or just want! LOL).
I would like to see a 24MP sensor max...but with vastly improved shadow capability. Hate to say it....but I would like to see "Nikon" or "Sony" blacks!!! :

 

[K]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

I definitely will not adopt a 5DMarkIV on intro no matter what is has or can do. I bought my 5DIII on intro for $3400...and now they can be had for sub $1800.... So...I am very interested to see what the new sensor tech may be....I love my 5DIII so much (I sold a 40"x60" print 30 days ago)...I will just wait a year or two until the price really drops down to something sensible.
I would like to see a 24MP sensor max...but with vastly improved shadow capability. Hate to say it....but I would like to see "Nikon" blacks!!! :

I'm not in the high resolution camp. I'd be happy with 24-28mp. Speed and file size is a concern.

Low light, ISO performance is biggest concern. Better shadows would be nice too.


However, Nikon/Sony's "blacks" I don't like. They aren't as dark as Canon's. Less contrast. This has always been an annoyance in all these dynamic range comparisons. The blackest on the Nikon is like a middle-dark gray. It seems to me their sensors are tweaked to improve shadows at the expense of wider contrast.

What would Nikon/Sony shadows look like if those sensors could actually get a nice deep black?

 

[Stu_bert]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

I'm all for an 18MP 5DIV; I'm even willing to tolerate the included video features -- whatever they might be -- even though I'd be just as happy if it had no video capabilities at all, even though I know that'll never happen.

I would prefer to buy a 2nd 5DIII rather than a 5DIV, if the MP count is substantially higher (i.e., anything higher than 24MP).

There seem to be three camps on the 5D4 with stills:

• The purists: those that adore their 5D3 and just want their 22 MP to do more -- either better in high ISO, perhaps more DR at low ISO, etc. But their message is clear: keep the pixel count around where it is to deliver the best possible IQ/noise performance.
  
  
  
• The pixel peepers: these folks want the product to put up big numbers on a spec-sheet that say 'best in class', top dog, etc. Put a big number here (nut not so big as to take out the legs of the 5DS models), say 36 MP. More MP = more detail, = more competitive with the D750s and D810s of the world, = less buyers' remorse when competitive company X offers more pixels at the same price point, etc.
  
  
  
• The pragmatists: those that recognize neither the purists nor the pixel peepers will get what they want. Canon will do that evolution-not-revolution thing they do so well and give a small MP bump (we keep hearing 28 MP) alongside key value-add features (anti-flicker, slight bump in burst rate, the 1DX II's AF setup, etc.) to get the 5D3 camp to upgrade.
  

I tend to think of the purists as dreaming, the pixel-peepers as petty, and the pragmatists as boring.

I am split. My 'want' is that of the purists, but my expectation of Canon is clearly with the pragmatists' view.

- A

Which is why there is a lot of support for them releasing more than one model...

Not for a 5D4, though -- we're just expecting one of those, right?

5DS / R = high res

5D4 = all-around model, mid-level res + higher framerate

'5Dc' = low res / low light / video a la the A7S line

Isn't that the latest read of things?

- A

To me they are all 5D models. If they release a 5D MK IV and the 5Dc MK I, then to me all 3 are variants of the 5D - appreciate of course that the innards are different.

And would the "5Dc" at 18MP be close enough to the 5D III current MP for them to be happy? Given what Canon has done on the 5Ds, you would assume the 5Dc would have the same. So trade a few MP for better video / ISO ?

 

[infared]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

I definitely will not adopt a 5DMarkIV on intro no matter what is has or can do. I bought my 5DIII on intro for $3400...and now they can be had for sub $1800.... So...I am very interested to see what the new sensor tech may be....I love my 5DIII so much (I sold a 40"x60" print 30 days ago)...I will just wait a year or two until the price really drops down to something sensible.
I would like to see a 24MP sensor max...but with vastly improved shadow capability. Hate to say it....but I would like to see "Nikon" blacks!!! :

I'm not in the high resolution camp. I'd be happy with 24-28mp. Speed and file size is a concern.

Low light, ISO performance is biggest concern. Better shadows would be nice too.


However, Nikon/Sony's "blacks" I don't like. They aren't as dark as Canon's. Less contrast. This has always been an annoyance in all these dynamic range comparisons. The blackest on the Nikon is like a middle-dark gray. It seems to me their sensors are tweaked to improve shadows at the expense of wider contrast.

What would Nikon/Sony shadows look like if those sensors could actually get a nice deep black?

Hmmmm....I am not aware of that. Most of my reading says that the blacks are much better in those camps....I am not disputing you....I just am under a totally different impression, but will admit that I have no hard facts to back that up. Enlighten me?!?!?!
The Nikon and Sigma "blacks" do have lower noise compared to my 5D Mark III for a given ISO....no?

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

Hmmmm....I am not aware of that. Most of my reading says that the blacks are much better in those camps....I am not disputing you....I just am under a totally different impression, but will admit that I have no hard facts to back that up. Enlighten me?!?!?!
The Nikon and Sigma "blacks" do have lower noise compared to my 5D Mark III for a given ISO....no?

I am just sick of seeing side by sides where some person horrifically underexposes a shot, pushes it 4-5 stops in post, miraculously finds a picture hiding in there, and says "That's why I'm with Nikon (or Sony)."

It's a lovely parlor trick, but as an enthusiast and not a pro, 'saving my bacon when I completely s--- the bed' is not something I value so much. I sure as hell wouldn't convert all my stuff to another brand for something so nutty and left field as that. A pro whose livelihood depends on not blowing a never-to-happen-again shot (wedding receptions, reportage, wildlife, etc.) may feel otherwise.

- A

 

[mkabi]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

Updating the 5DS and 5DSR makes perfect sense to me...

Once the 5D4 comes out, canon wants to continue to sell 5DS and 5DSRs... If some one looks at the differences between the 5D4 and 5DS/5DSR... They don't want people to choose the 5D4 every damn time...

If 5D4 is chosen every time.... Might as well stop the 5DS/5DSR production right now...

Sure, but that won't happen. People who need 50 MP will buy a 5DS / 5DS R and people who need a 1-2 stops more high ISO or +2-3 more FPS will get a 5D4. There is a natural segmentation you get just from the spec sheet.

I would be stunned -- stunned -- if Canon put something so gamechanging in the 5D4 outside of the basic powertrain sort of specs (high ISO / fps / MP / AF system) that people who need super high MP would give it up for a lower res rig.

Slick new features happen all the time (the 70D got DPAF, the 7D2 got anti-flicker and some viewfinder upgrades, etc.) but they aren't so exciting as to have you say:

"Well, I thought I needed high MP the most, but doggone it, the offering of onboard LTE and integral 'Dump to the Cloud' / 'Dump to Instagram' buttons are sufficiently awesome that I now no longer am enticed by resolving power. High MP sensors are so 2015. :"

The only single feature I could see that tectonically re-aligns the entire brand's segment preference like that is 4k. No matter what your preference on it is: love it, must have it, don't need it but would like it for future proofing, can't stand it, I only shoot stills, etc. -- that feature sells cameras.

- A

I am sure you right... BUT... We all know that MP isn't everything...
Think of it this way (all rhetorical, so you know the answers):
The difference between the 5D2 and 5D3???
The difference between the 7D and 7D2???
Now the difference between 5D3 and 5DS/5DSR? (I expect you to know that the difference isn't as great as the difference as the 5D2 and 5D3 or the 7D and 7D2)
So obviously the same differences between the 5D3 and 5D4, will be evident between 5DS/5DSR and 5D4, except for MP.

 

[infared]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

Hmmmm....I am not aware of that. Most of my reading says that the blacks are much better in those camps....I am not disputing you....I just am under a totally different impression, but will admit that I have no hard facts to back that up. Enlighten me?!?!?!
The Nikon and Sigma "blacks" do have lower noise compared to my 5D Mark III for a given ISO....no?

I am just sick of seeing side by sides where some person horrifically underexposes a shot, pushes it 4-5 stops in post, miraculously finds a picture hiding in there, and says "That's why I'm with Nikon (or Sony)."

It's a lovely parlor trick, but as an enthusiast and not a pro, 'saving my bacon when I completely s--- the bed' is not something I value so much. I sure as hell wouldn't convert all my stuff to another brand for something so nutty and left field as that. A pro whose livelihood depends on not blowing a never-to-happen-again shot (wedding receptions, reportage, wildlife, etc.) may feel otherwise.

- A

I am not jumping camp either....I have 10 EOS-mount lenses for God's sake....I think you are going a little to the extreme with your "4-5 Stops" example ... I am an incredibly capable photographer...and many times when I pull up my shadows in a properly exposed image...they can be disappointing. It is not the end of my world...but I think that Canon is lagging there. That's all.
Having solid blacks in the shadow on a very adeptly exposed quality image could be better compared to some other offerings on the market in sensor tech, only. I am not trying to bash Canon...just stating what I think are the facts.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

I am not jumping camp either....I have 10 EOS-mount lenses for God's sake....I think you are going a little to the extreme with your "4-5 Stops" example ... I am an incredibly capable photographer...and many times when I pull up my shadows in a properly exposed image...they can be disappointing. It is not the end of my world...but I think that Canon is lagging there. That's all.

I agree, you can absolutely see differences between Canon and SoNikon at less than those crazy 4-5 stops push examples. I just don't think it's that important. When I'm staring at a comically wide DR scene that no sensor can handle, a single exposure (no matter how much you push it) won't work.

- A

 

[infared]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

I agree. Also....I am not going to run out and spend $4000 on a 5DMarkIV even if the shadows are vastly improve. ...I will wait a year or two. The 5DIII is a VERY capable camera for my needs. Very capable.
In the end ...if you have a killer photo, no one has ever asked me what camera I shot it with when they are buying the print...they are just excited about the image, noise in the shadows be damned!!!! LOL!
...but we are tech nerds...that is why we come here...you kind of have to be to be good at the craft...but we need to keep that in balance...which is hard to do sometimes.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

I agree. Also....I am not going to run out and spend $4000 on a 5DMarkIV even if the shadows are vastly improve. ...I will wait a year or two. The 5DIII is a VERY capable camera for my needs. Very capable.

This is Canon's major problem. How do you motivate people to drop another $4k when the new camera is 10% better than the last one? That's a tough value proposition.

Sony, on the other hand -- despite all the A7 platform's shortcomings away from their sensors -- is slapping major consumer bait into all of these refreshes, things that are more than 10% improvements in the eyes of some photographers:

• 4K
• IBIS
• Backside illuminated sensors
• Massive AF upgrades (still not at DSLR's level, but a huge improvement)
• Improved (though not perfect) AF with Canon glass on an adaptor

So this isn't a mirrorless or Sony 'grass is greener 'rant so much as it is a reality check on some of the things Canon could be doing. Certainly a part of this is that Sony is up-and-coming while Canon is mature and established. Canon's stuff works so well that it's hard to drop an improvement bomb on a spec sheet that drums up massive interest. They just carefully (and shrewdly) put one foot in front of the other -- that can be a tough sell when you are asking $4k for it.

- A

 

[K]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

I'll add that the only possibility of Canon using new body and updated sensor for the 5DS cameras is if the existing ones have poor sales. But would that make sense? Would a body update and sensor update make the difference?

There wasn't a lot of time between the 5D3's sensor and the 6D's ...yet the 6D sensor is better. It benefited from whatever slight tech update there was between their development cycles.

That could be true of the 5DS's sensor. Maybe the new one will go to 12800, or stay at 6400 max ISO with cleaner images? Who knows. If they update the 5DS, they ought to do the same for the 7D2 sensor. However, the 7D2 is a different body. That would mean upgrading a sensor in the same exact body as the predecessor.

There would be all kinds of confusion out there. People would start buying based on serial number range and whatnot to get the latest sensor if the model number doesn't change.

At least with the 5DS it would be a new body and differentiate from the old, even if model name stays the same.

Given the rating of a CR1, I'd say it ain't going to happen.

5DS sales have been decent from my understanding. If someone wants a poor-man's medium format, that's the way to go. Sure, even with 50MP it still is not medium format in many, many, ways - but the high resolution, large print folks have a body to go to. Pixel peeping against the D810, the 5DS is stellar. I doubt upgrade is coming. Canon is always proud of their releases and doesn't update often.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV & 5DS Talk [CR2]

I dont anticipate 5ds/r being updated so soon. Highly improbable.

The only problem is if they don't then the 5D4 would be pretty constricted. Another old sensor in it? Same old video again?

I don't know. I'd love an A7R II in 5D form, but it seems unlikely. 5D4 might lack 4k and high MP. 5Ds lacks 4k and top low ISO DR and any sort of buffer for RAW mode action shooting (thanks to the crazy crop mode only works for JPGs).

The D820 though seems free to be an A7R II in DSLR form.

Maybe Canon will be willing to call the 5Ds and all a failed experiment and dump all the old stuff and truly take on a D820 as A7R II in DSLR form kinda camera. Not sure though. It does seem not so likely.

Anyway just glad we have Sony so at least we have a way to get high MP, high DR, solid video. Obviously that in a 5D3 class with the AF and nice RAW buffer and UI would be nicer, but hey at least Sony gave us some sort of way to get some of those features.