Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Talk [CR1]

[scyrene]

Perhaps, just perhaps, because I'm not a "fan boi", I don't behave irrationally when it comes to reviews. And maybe, just maybe, not being a "fan boi" means that in general, I'm less irrational in general regarding Canon but because everyone else here is caught up in emotional ways with Canon, the irrational appears rational and the rational appears irrational.

Just saying.

I think believing *everyone* else is of one view and your contrary one is somehow superior is called megalomania.

 

[mb66energy]

I see only roughly 500mW average power for each the shutter and the mirror at 10 fps for a FF system (@10% efficiency). Resulting in 10 images per Joule electrical energy per second (1W). LP-E6 keeps 45 000 Joules energy (equivalent of 1.5 ml of gasoline).

CPU power should be in the region of 10 Watts (or 10 Joules per second).

Be careful not to compare average and peak current capacities.

A good analogy for a battery is a barrel of water with a tap (or hole) at the bottom. The barrel size is equivalent to the battery capacity (mAh). The tap size is equivalent to the battery's peak current delivery.

You cannot get more water out of the barrel on a sustained basis than what is set by the size of the tap. If you need more water (current) than what the tap can deliver, but only at intervals, you can 'stage' the water into a smaller bucket, which has a larger tap (which can be turned on/off). Close the tap of the staging bucket, fill it up, open the staging tap, get a big splash. Repeat.

Even though the driver for the mirror is active for a fraction of the time*, maybe 5-8 of the time at max FPS, the current needed while it's driving the mirror that can be crucial in terms of the battery ability to deliver that current.
Let's for a moment assume that your 500mW average is correct, and that the SlomoGuys video is reliable (I measured a 15msec mirror-up time). At 7.4V and an on-time of 15msec and off-time of 110ms (the 7D does 8fps), that would be 500mW/7.4*(125ms/15ms) = 563mA. Yikes!

Limitations of current flow in batteries are well known to me. Cameras use two mechanisms to overcome the problem of needed peak loads: Capacitors which are charged permanently and discharged in fractions of Milliseconds to supply vast currents. Spring mechanisms can also be charged mechanically and release their energy in Milliseconds. I am shure Canon uses both energy storage mechanisms.

I designed a power supply for a small hifi power amp with much higher voltage stability compared to a 12 Ah lead battery -- just by using a 7812 voltage regulator and 2 x 10000 uF (16V and 12V side). The capacitors are low ESL types for spontanous power delivery.

A CPU power consumption of 10Watts is way out of line for two reasons. First, the camera wouldn't be able to get dissipate that without getting very hot, very quickly. My guess would be less than 500mW. Secondly, the battery won't be able to sustain such current draw.

I am shure that you cannot operate a camera (edit CPU during high speed image aquisition at 500mW -- I meant the power consumption during a 10 fps period (should have stated that more pronounced). During idle phases I am with you that it goes down to some 100 mW.

10 W for 2 secondes is 20 Joules. You can "heat" up 5 ml water by one degree or 5 grams of magnesium by 4 degree C.

Or think about video: My EOS M handles ~ 30 min video with a 6Wh battery - resulting in 12 Watts continuous power dissipation. Maybe one reason to equip that camera with a metal shell to avoid hot spots.

To get a bound for the power consumption, I looked at a day when I took 2500 shots with a 5D3, with relatively little chimping. The battery was full in the morning, and had ~27% power left at the end. That's 1800mAh*(1-27%)/2500 shutters = 0.53mAh/shutter actuation, or 0.146mAs. If everything is consumed by the shutter in 15msec/167msec** that's a peak of 5.85mA. Power for all the electronics, the memory card, screen, lens AF and IS needs to be deducted from this.

[...]

I agree with your first step (marked red). 0.53mAh * 7 V = 0.00053Ah * 3600 s/h * 7 V = 13 J
So you need 13 Joules per shot or 80 Joules per second (6 fps) - this is 80 Watts or a stronger incandescent lamp. Under real conditions it is "only" 20 or 30 Watts because processing and storing the data is done for several seconds after the initial data acquisition.

Obviously cameras can handle the power dissipation of several tens of Watts easily if used under normal conditions.

 

[symmar22]

It took me until just five seconds ago to realize something: a plethora of people who speculate here don't actually have fun - they speak every word as though its truth or falsehood might be some slight against the purest core of their existence. Either that, or they just don't use enough emoticons.

Most of a processor's cost is in its development. And even then, that cost is likely minimal in a Digic - if only because its a lightweight processor - on a par with an ARM driven package. If they've designed it correctly and are using an appropriate process, the cost per chip is negligible. Each package equates to about $100-$200 of the consumer price, assuming a top of the line brand new design. Thus a dual CPU package is about $200-$400. Which is piddily compared to the other components in a camera in the X series.

Power - again, arguments can be made, but the draw is probably somewhere in the 1500-3000 milliwatt range at max draw. So double would be 3w to a maximum of 6w - and that's a peak number. For most processes, the device is going to sip power at somewhere in the 300-700 mW range per package. Its probably the fourth most power hungry system in the camera, following the sensor, lens, and shutter/mirror assembly.

So if the device required it, I see no reason why canon would not use a dual processor system if it gave them the ability to give the 5DmIV an edge over its direct competitors and to make it attractive to those who own its predecessor.

As for Megapixels - this is the one thing Canon is more likely to focus on in this camera. Its been their end game for the last few generations with it and its the one thing they are okay with the 5 series outperforming their 1 series cameras on. And they don't really have to do much to achieve a decent jump from iteration to iteration. Moores law dictates that computational capacity doubles roughly every 18-24 months. The Digics, unlike most high end CPUs are likely nowhere near that threshold and have probably another decade before their designs start pushing the limits of physics. Assuming a spherical cow... You're probably going to see a practical gain of 20%-30%. So taking a 22.4 megapixel sensor and taking it up to 29.12 megapixels or thereabouts should be easily done without any drastic changes in design or capabilities while imparting the same image performance. Canon could also achieve a similar gain by switching to back side illumination on the sensor without changing the performance of the processor. Or they could put in two processors for another 20%-30%.

The latest Digics support C-Fast. You could pump 32 megapixel raws to the c-fast card at 10fps. So if you have a moderate buffer (4gb), you could easily sustain a 10fps burst for 12 seconds before experiencing a mild falloff to about 9.6 fps (due to the transfer delay from file to file) until the card was filled. For UHS-II, the maximum fps rate to card would be about 7fps at 32mp, and about 8fps at 29.12mp but there is no sign the digic system supports UHS-II SpeedClass 3. ISO 100-400. More noise = more megabytes after lossless compression so... *shrug*

Canon is unlikely to put 10fps on the 5DmIV. 8fps might happen, but odds are we will see 7fps so that either CFast or UHS-II cards can offer near "limitless" buffer given a fast enough card and keeping the high speed buffer storage down to a minimum. Its this that will take $$$ out of the cost of the electronics as memory is the most expensive component in the system due to how fast it must be in order to transfer data from sensor through to the processor(s), then back to the card. 7fps will require a small push to the AF system, but they can just take what the 7DmII already has and adapt it. They would likely also need to dampen the shutter a bit better.

If they wanted to make a sensor capable of being used for 8k DCI video, they'd need something in the 42-50mp range. Which would be limited to about 3-6fps at buffer exhaustion depending on storage types. They'd also need an 8gb buffer to store a significant amount of raws. And if they wanted to improve noise performance, they'd need to switch to BSI, as there's a law of diminishing processor returns once you start taking the pixel density to where the 7DmII and 5DS/r are unless you have appropriately increased processing capacity. I'd say that's a 2020 or so thing.

Again, that's assuming that canon isn't in its usual conservative "Thou shall not cannabilze thy sales" mode. But I really have a hard time not seeing canon bump to 29-32 mp, as it would cost them little to do so. And because of the 4k video (assuming its there and uses mjpeg) they really have nothing to lose. You're going to need CFast media for that so you're already going to have to make the investment in the cards. They wouldn't lose sales or performance with the megapixel bump. If they forego the 4k video... or use a highly compressed format... then UHS-II and CF would work just as well... and you'd only need a 24mp sensor. Although I think such a iterative upgrade would lose more new customers than bumping up would lose existing customers, and would make them even farther behind the field when it comes to video capability.

My two cents... for what its worth.

Thanks for reminding us a bout the fun factor, it's sometimes lacking here, especially with that anti-Dilbert campaign running these days. :

Thanks as well the detailed post, with interesting speculations and reminding us about ARM processors.

Though IMO, your 100$ price per unit seems quite high to me, I would have thought about anything between 10-30$ per ARM CPU, I thought the point of ARM was to be (relatively) simple, energy efficient, low cost CPUs. For 100$ you have an entry level Core i3.

As for 8K video, I think we are far from it, it took already some time that we could talk about 4K.

BSI sensors seems for now out of reach for Canon, or IMO the technology would have been included in the 1Dx2.

 

[mb66energy]

I see only roughly 500mW average power for each the shutter and the mirror at 10 fps for a FF system (@10% efficiency). Resulting in 10 images per Joule electrical energy per second (1W).

I respectfully think you underestimate this aspect, even if not by much. This is not a case of constant, linear motion. The inertial mass is low, but its movement implies sudden, extremely fast repeated and frequent acceleration.

I'm not sure what you mean by @10% efficiency: do you mean that 90% energy is wasted as heat? Or rather you estimate a 90% efficiency for the motor? If the latter, though true that the latest electrical engines reach such efficiency, again it's not true for small motors and linear EM actuators, especially when engaged with gearwheel connected mechanisms which dissipate energy, and undergoing repeated frequent cycles of opening/closing of an electrical circuit. Anyway, I agree the power required is in the order of a few W units. But, lacking any evidence, this is pure guessing, we may both be wrong.

After answering kaihp's words I think I have underestimated the fraction of power consumption for the mirror and shutter mechanisms.

With 10% I meant that only 10% of the electrical energy go to the mechanical energy of the mirror motion. I calculated the energy of a rotating box of the size of the mirror at the typical rotational speeds and multiplied it by 10 to incorporate the losses for the driving mechanisms.

But I now see a reason for a large power consumption: Perhaps the components are accelerated AND decelerated with electrical power to gain better control over vibrations and add some speed for the overall process.

You mentioned the lens: You are right. Moving 100 grams in 10 msec for 2 cm needs some energy!
EDIT: Backing it up with a simple calculation: One move "costs" 0.2 Joule mechanical energy and with 20% conversion efficiency 1 Joule electrical energy. And this is ONE move - not a situation of tracking over larger distance variations.
The 13 Joule per shot which are derived from kaihp's use case are more and more understandable ...

 

[romanr74]

... All we can do is speculate without firm data to back up our opinions and the result is a never ending argument....

That's the fun of it! Speculating, guessing, being corrected by others - there's always someone who knows something more - it's a way to get educated, I've learned a lot of things on CR, thanks to all of you!

Perhaps it has a digic6 for AF and a Digic 7 for data

Similarly to the 1DX, which has a dedicated Digic 4 for AF? Doubt it, but, if there is, Digic 6 would be overkill. BTW, does anyone know if the 1DX II has a dedicated Digic for AF, too? I'm too lazy to go and check now...

Why don't you have your wife look that up for you... It sounds like she must be used to doing thing for you...

 

[pierlux]

... All we can do is speculate without firm data to back up our opinions and the result is a never ending argument....

That's the fun of it! Speculating, guessing, being corrected by others - there's always someone who knows something more - it's a way to get educated, I've learned a lot of things on CR, thanks to all of you!

Perhaps it has a digic6 for AF and a Digic 7 for data

Similarly to the 1DX, which has a dedicated Digic 4 for AF? Doubt it, but, if there is, Digic 6 would be overkill. BTW, does anyone know if the 1DX II has a dedicated Digic for AF, too? I'm too lazy to go and check now...

Why don't you have your wife look that up for you... It sounds like she must be used to doing thing for you...

She can't... she doesn't exist. I got married, then separated, finally divorced (1993-1999). Had another important story but never married again, we had 2 children. Again separated, we still have an excellent relationship, we support each other, daughter & son never suffered from separation. Never had others do anything for me, but the opposite is the rule. I'm happily single, that's why I can cultivate a lot of hobbies and stay for so long on CR .

As for the dedicated Digic, yesterday I checked. There is one Digic 6 for RGB metering, so Don was not wrong to hypothesize the 6, but I was, twice :-[. First because I assigned it to AF and second because I said I thought the 6 was overkill.

 

[nvsravank]

<snip>

As for the dedicated Digic, yesterday I checked. There is one Digic 6 for RGB metering, so Don was not wrong to hypothesize the 6, but I was, twice :-[. First because I assigned it to AF and second because I said I thought the 6 was overkill.
<snip>

Doesnt the metering grid also help in facial recognition and object tracking for the AF to perform? While the chip is said to be for metering in marketing literature I always also thought it is necessary to help with the faster AF also even if the direct AF calculations are done in the other chips.

 

[pierlux]

<snip>

As for the dedicated Digic, yesterday I checked. There is one Digic 6 for RGB metering, so Don was not wrong to hypothesize the 6, but I was, twice :-[. First because I assigned it to AF and second because I said I thought the 6 was overkill.
<snip>

Doesnt the metering grid also help in facial recognition and object tracking for the AF to perform? While the chip is said to be for metering in marketing literature I always also thought it is necessary to help with the faster AF also even if the direct AF calculations are done in the other chips.

I don't know, really. But, as concerns the 1DX, the brochure reports:

" An all-new, 61-Point High-Density Reticular AF and 100,000-pixel RGB Metering Sensor that uses a dedicated DIGIC 4 Image Processor"

so I'd say "uses" refers only to the RGB metering sensor. Can't say why I thought the extra DIGIC processes the AF routines, my memory tricked me. Same story in the case of the 1DXII, except for the 360,000 pixel RGB+IR sensor and dedicated DIGIC 6.

I might have read something in the past mentioning AF, but also I may have simply been wrong yesterday. I don't remember.

 

[neuroanatomist]

<snip>

As for the dedicated Digic, yesterday I checked. There is one Digic 6 for RGB metering, so Don was not wrong to hypothesize the 6, but I was, twice :-[. First because I assigned it to AF and second because I said I thought the 6 was overkill.
<snip>

Doesnt the metering grid also help in facial recognition and object tracking for the AF to perform? While the chip is said to be for metering in marketing literature I always also thought it is necessary to help with the faster AF also even if the direct AF calculations are done in the other chips.

I don't know, really. But, as concerns the 1DX, the brochure reports:

" An all-new, 61-Point High-Density Reticular AF and 100,000-pixel RGB Metering Sensor that uses a dedicated DIGIC 4 Image Processor"

so I'd say "uses" refers only to the RGB metering sensor. Can't say why I thought the extra DIGIC processes the AF routines, my memory tricked me. Same story in the case of the 1DXII, except for the 360,000 pixel RGB+IR sensor and dedicated DIGIC 6.

I might have read something in the past mentioning AF, but also I may have simply been wrong yesterday. I don't remember.

The metering system is necessary for iTR-driven AF, so in that sense the additional (older) Digic processor for metering is supporting AF.

 

[pierlux]

Oh, and thanks mb66energy, kaihp, pvalpha and the others for taking the time to talk about batteries & power. I've been looking for some information about the power requirements of cameras' subsystems since yesterday, but didn't find numbers. Patents also report diagrams and drawings, but no numbers. We can only guess.

The only certain and indisputable fact is that the sensor is the most power hungry component. We all know that when filming or in live view, it drains the battery very fast. But we often forget that when shooting a burst, it is however so much avid that it by far outclasses in hunger all the other subsystems put together.

So, during a burst, the battery has to feed a lot of players: lens' AF and IS and relative logic, mirror and shutter, AF module, metering sensor, camera chipset, memory cards and, most of all, an avid sensor. No wonder the power supply of new camera models require constant upgrades. The old BP-511 of the EOS 10D was 7.4V x 1100mAh, today's LP-E6n is 7.2V x 1865mAh, will the next (LP-E20?) top 2000mAh?

<sarcasm> Want more than 7fps? Start an online petition asking Canon to do like Nikon did. Ask for a 5D IV featuring 7fps ungripped, 9-10 gripped with 2 batteries. A hack will soon be available which enables the "unlock" of the "feature". Now you'll be able to shoot 10fps ungripped (with a full battery). Shoot until the battery explodes. Bash Canon on the internet. Ask for a replacement under warranty. Repeat. </sarcasm>

 

[pierlux]

The metering system is necessary for iTR-driven AF, so in that sense the additional (older) Digic processor for metering is supporting AF.

Thanks neuro!

 

[davemody]

Doesn't it seem obvious that the lower resolution would be used to reduce image noise? By combining pixels in a 36 Mpixel sensor, you could effectively have a large low pixel count sensor that is good for low light, and when you have great light you shoot at the higher pixel count.

-Dave

 

[mb66energy]

Doesn't it seem obvious that the lower resolution would be used to reduce image noise? By combining pixels in a 36 Mpixel sensor, you could effectively have a large low pixel count sensor that is good for low light, and when you have great light you shoot at the higher pixel count.

-Dave

That was the reason I have been interested in the 5Ds(R) cameras: Combine 4 (RGBG) sensor photosites into one RGB pixel for imaging. But I decided to try FF as a "format" and bought a 5D classic.
I have observed that the sensor resolution of the 5D classic is sufficient for 60x90cm prints (24x36inch) if I have done everything right. Resolution of my lenses matches the sensor so I have a "100% efficiency from lens to sensor", images are fine on the pixel level. The 12 bit ADC and low resolution make RAW preview and manipulation a breeze on a 3 yr old core i7 PC, much faster than RAWs of EOS M or 600D ... which have 18MPix but are not great down to the pixel level (noise, lens errors).

But scaling down from 32 to 24 MPix cannot reduce noise dramatically -- there must be another reason to do that. My idea is that they fold the information of the red, blue and two green pixels efficiently into a format that has red, single green and blue values to produce smaller filesize of the RAWs without to much loss of quality ... and while writing this: What about the idea to use the DPAF subpixels as subpixel triplets to get full color information for each final image pixel? So we are at (32 * 2 subpixels) / 3 = 21.3 MPix ... you need some processing to convert these triples into the matrix of an image but you would have FULL COLOR INFORMATION for each image pixel ...

Bold italic: Subgroup of 3 pixels
[RR] [GG]
[GG] [BB]

 

[Ozarker]

I've got to say that I really do not understand the demand for GPS. Nothing against it. I just don't understand it.

With GPS one does give up some privacy, just like with a cell phone or your car's navigation system.

If I go to the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Devil's Tower etc... I know where I took the photos. Is this for social media? I just cannot imagine why people looking at the photos would need the GPS coordinates.

Everyone likes the features they like. Maybe some pro photographers need GPS, yet photographers made it without it for many years. I don't know. Maybe some publications require it. I just know that I don't need to pinpoint where I saw a bison roaming the range.

For me, personally, I couldn't care less about it.

I know others do. That's fine with me.

Same with Wifi: As far as weddings go, I suppose that brides want stuff to go straight to social media via wifi. I just don't get why. Maybe people are getting very self obsessed and I think it is a bad thing and bad form.

Or, I'm just too old (52).

The wife and I have started turning the cell phone off when we leave the house. If somebody needs to get hold of us they can leave a message... just like the good old days. I can go about my business and do what I want to do without somebody calling me up during the grocery shopping, a conversation with a friend, or a meal out. I don't use it for email or social media either.

As far as social media goes... nobody has 100 friends and relatives they need to keep tabs on. Nope. My life nor theirs is that interesting. People with hundreds or thousands of friends? Never happens. Nobody can maintain that many relationships. "My Aunt Millie had a stroke today!" 75 people click "Like". They aren't even thinking when they click. Does anyone need a selfie everyday (arm extended, same pose, different background).

Okay, done with my venting.

I have nothing against these technologies. They just aren't for me. If somebody else likes them... have at it. ;D ;D ;D

 

[Diko]

As many have already covered, the 5D line (not 5DS) has historically only gotten one chip, and 36 MP x 8 fps would require more than two at present throughput -- that would be moving more data than the 1DX II!

While a valid argument still forget not that there must be a difference between DIGIC 6+ and DIGIC 7. ;-) It is viable for the new gen. image processors to be able handle half the frames rate for about 50% additional MPs. And it will be the new gen. I bet on that.

 

[kaihp]

As many have already covered, the 5D line (not 5DS) has historically only gotten one chip, and 36 MP x 8 fps would require more than two at present throughput -- that would be moving more data than the 1DX II!

While a valid argument still forget not that there must be a difference between DIGIC 6+ and DIGIC 7. ;-) It is viable for the new gen. image processors to be able handle half the frames rate for about 50% additional MPs. And it will be the new gen. I bet on that.

I just saw ahsanfords comment above and wanted to point out that the 1Dx2 pushes 20.2MP x 16fps = 323MP/sec, which is more than the 36MP x 8fps = 288MP/sec he suggests, so that would still be within the performance envelope of two DIGIC 6+ processors.
The DIGIC 7 is already introduced in the G7 X Mk II (20.1MP, up to 8fps).

 

[symmar22]

I've got to say that I really do not understand the demand for GPS. Nothing against it. I just don't understand it.

With GPS one does give up some privacy, just like with a cell phone or your car's navigation system.

If I go to the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Devil's Tower etc... I know where I took the photos. Is this for social media? I just cannot imagine why people looking at the photos would need the GPS coordinates.

Everyone likes the features they like. Maybe some pro photographers need GPS, yet photographers made it without it for many years. I don't know. Maybe some publications require it. I just know that I don't need to pinpoint where I saw a bison roaming the range.

For me, personally, I couldn't care less about it.

I know others do. That's fine with me.

Same with Wifi: As far as weddings go, I suppose that brides want stuff to go straight to social media via wifi. I just don't get why. Maybe people are getting very self obsessed and I think it is a bad thing and bad form.

Or, I'm just too old (52).

The wife and I have started turning the cell phone off when we leave the house. If somebody needs to get hold of us they can leave a message... just like the good old days. I can go about my business and do what I want to do without somebody calling me up during the grocery shopping, a conversation with a friend, or a meal out. I don't use it for email or social media either.

As far as social media goes... nobody has 100 friends and relatives they need to keep tabs on. Nope. My life nor theirs is that interesting. People with hundreds or thousands of friends? Never happens. Nobody can maintain that many relationships. "My Aunt Millie had a stroke today!" 75 people click "Like". They aren't even thinking when they click. Does anyone need a selfie everyday (arm extended, same pose, different background).

Okay, done with my venting.

I have nothing against these technologies. They just aren't for me. If somebody else likes them... have at it. ;D ;D ;D

I am with you here, I wouldn't like to have a GPS tracker in my camera either, plus these things always leak energy somehow. As for the WiFi, can live without it, but if it's included I'll take it.

Note : I leave my mobile off as much as I can as well

 

[Don Haines]

I've got to say that I really do not understand the demand for GPS. Nothing against it. I just don't understand it.

With GPS one does give up some privacy, just like with a cell phone or your car's navigation system.
<snip>

Any file that I put on the web has had the metadata removed from it, so I have no worries about people data-mining my pictures.....

Besides, On the Day I got my 7D2 I turned the GPS off....... I suppose that some day I should turn it on to test that it works..... maybe in 2018.... or 2019....

For me, GPS is a feature that has no appeal.... but I am not self centered enough to demand that nobody gets it. After all, Canon would not have put the feature in if there was not a significant demand for it and probably figures it will increase sales.

 

[Etienne]

I've got to say that I really do not understand the demand for GPS. Nothing against it. I just don't understand it.

With GPS one does give up some privacy, just like with a cell phone or your car's navigation system.
<snip>

Any file that I put on the web has had the metadata removed from it, so I have no worries about people data-mining my pictures.....

Besides, On the Day I got my 7D2 I turned the GPS off....... I suppose that some day I should turn it on to test that it works..... maybe in 2018.... or 2019....

For me, GPS is a feature that has no appeal.... but I am not self centered enough to demand that nobody gets it. After all, Canon would not have put the feature in if there was not a significant demand for it and probably figures it will increase sales.

GPS and wifi can both be turned off. Touch screen too. So these should be non-issues.
I leave my phone Location service (GPS) off 98% of the time, but every once in a while it is extremely useful.
One of my friends uses his 6D GPS when hiking, because it tracks his route, which he likes to use later.

I would probably leave GPS and Wifi off most of the time on my 5DIV when/if I get it, but I'll be glad to have the option.

 

[unfocused]

I wouldn't mind having GPS on vacations. Then my wife wouldn't have to correct my captions all the time.