Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]

[Canon Rumors Guy]

I’ll lead by saying that a replacement for the Canon EOS 5DS R will not be coming in 2017, this is potentially a Q3/Q4 2018 camera.</p>
<p>Anything this far out is generally considered unlikely to come to fruition, but there have been exceptions and specifications always evolve and change for camera bodies.</p>
<p><strong>This is what we’re told about the EOS 5DS / EOS 5DS R Replacement:</strong></p>

<ul>
<li>Working prototypes are currently being tested.</li>
<li>The “5DS” series will be amalgamated into a single camera.</li>
<li>No low pass filter.</li>
<li>All new 60.1mp image sensor.</li>
<li>A new type of low megapixel mode.</li>
<li>4K video (video features will be basic)</li>
<li>Identical body to the EOS 5D Mark IV.</li>
<li>Focus peaking present, may appear first on another DSLR.</li>
<li>Expect all the other features such as DPAF, Wifi, Touchscreen and GPS.</li>
</ul>
<p>We’ve heard other rumblings about a high megapixel replacement, and that these cameras won’t be on 5 year product cycles. I too expect to see this new camera some time in 2018.</p>
<p>*<strong>Update 09/04/2017 @ 16:56 EST: </strong>Keep in mind that Canon uses APS-H sensors in some test bodies and this can affect pixel count.</p>
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[Dylan777]

Sounds like a7rIII and A9r are coming

 

[unfocused]

I'm actually surprised that the rumored megapixel count is that low. If accurate, it would actually be just under the pixel count of the 80D. Assuming they use the same sensor again in both bodies, that would mean a 7DIII at about 23.5 mp. I was actually expecting 28 mp for the 7D and 72 mp for the 5DS.

Not disappointed, just a bit surprised if this is accurate.

As for focus peaking "may appear first on another DSLR," I'm wondering what the other DSLR would be. Guessing that would be the 7DIII, which also would mean that it might come before the 5DS.

Regardless, it will be fun to have some new rumors floating around over the next year.

 

[rrcphoto]

We’ve heard other rumblings about a high megapixel replacement, and that these cameras won’t be on 5 year product cycles. I too expect to see this new camera some time in 2018.

canon never really had 5 year product cycles. there's alot we can guess that the products were delayed getting new sensor fabrication processes working smoothly for DPAF sensors for full frame and also DPAF sensors in general. without ready sensors, no body's going to get released. canon tried that with the T5i. trying it again with the 6D as well.

also this seems to fail the sniff test with canon already actively demo'ing a 120MP camera in a 5D body around 2 years now. is there going to be two 5DsrII's? a 60mp and a 120mp version?

 

[privatebydesign]

I like the sound of the modest mp bump.

BUT, if it has on chip ADC type base IQ improvements I'll get one whatever else is or isn't on the spec sheet, if it doesn't I won't.

These 1DS model range replacements really are about one thing and everything else is iceing and cherries. Don't care about fps though more than 2 will beat out most medium format, don't want a $916 additional 2 fps option either. Don't care one iota for 4k or video in general from this model. GPS has become a nice additional way of sorting images so like that. I'd prefer an Ethernet port over headphone and mic ports, tethering is way more important than video for this particular model. If it has to have two card slots make them the same type and spec goddamit! Fully functional touch screen, Canon are the best at touch screens so run with it. BUT, Canon, give us the base IQ you have shown you can.......

 

[jolyonralph]

I don't think we'll see a commercial 120MP camera in a standard DSLR format. The 50mpx 5DSR is already pushing some of the L lenses to their optical limits, and a 120mpx sensor would mean a VERY restricted selection of lenses that would be appropriate for it - probably mostly new, very expensive ones.

We might see a 120mpx specialist camera in the same sort of form factor as the ludicrously expensive ME20F-SH at a similarly ludicrous price, just for those who absolutely need 120mpx.


What I'd like to see is them switch to a USB-C 3.1 connector instead of the horribly fragile USB3 connector the 5DSR has now. That would solve the tethering problems for most people.

 

[rrcphoto]

I don't think we'll see a commercial 120MP camera in a standard DSLR format. The 50mpx 5DSR is already pushing some of the L lenses to their optical limits, and a 120mpx sensor would mean a VERY restricted selection of lenses that would be appropriate for it - probably mostly new, very expensive ones.

We might see a 120mpx specialist camera in the same sort of form factor as the ludicrously expensive ME20F-SH at a similarly ludicrous price, just for those who absolutely need 120mpx.


What I'd like to see is them switch to a USB-C 3.1 connector instead of the horribly fragile USB3 connector the 5DSR has now. That would solve the tethering problems for most people.

except I've already had 3.1 connectors fail. hard to say they are more reliable.

and like I said, canon's already been actively demo'ing the 120MP DSLR for the past two years and have actually stated "it's coming.. " it's actually in development now since sept 2016, as a 120MP DSLR. Again, that's not even a rumor, it's already been stated by canon. So what there's going to be two more different high resolution 5D's coming out? that seems unlikely.

and you're wrong on the lenses, you're into the world of oversampling. every lens will improve even the worst.

 

[snoke]

BUT, if it has on chip ADC type base IQ improvements I'll get one whatever else is or isn't on the spec sheet, if it doesn't I won't.

This is it. Nothing else matter.

 

[[email protected]]

We’ve heard other rumblings about a high megapixel replacement, and that these cameras won’t be on 5 year product cycles. I too expect to see this new camera some time in 2018.

also this seems to fail the sniff test with canon already actively demo'ing a 120MP camera in a 5D body for the 2 years.

It could pass the sniff test in that the 5DS2 could have been considered weak in FPS (yes, I know that wasn't its priority mission), so Canon upped it to 7 fps and needed consider the strain of higher mp files, especially if it doesn't change the cards used.

The reason that doesn't sound necessarily crazy is that the competition may by next year have truly swamped the 5d4. Nikon 850 seems to have. So having a 60mp 7fps Canon body might be a handy thing for them. That might be a better answer to Nikon than a 30mp 7 fps camera + a 100mp 4.5 fps camera.

Not saying I believe the rumor, but I wouldn't eliminate it for its smell. As for the demo tech, we have long lists of precedents of tech demos that never became Canon products, or did so 3-5 years after initially anticipated.

Were this to happen, the key differentiator between the 5ds and 5d series would be low light limited/better resolution versus all-around capacity. That might not be a bad strategy were you to attempt to get 5d owners to buy a second body. Which would have worked better had the 5d4 come with 9 fps, as it should have.

PS: Agree with comments above regarding ADC being the most important "feature."

 

[mmeerdam]

technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though. I am not suprised to hear it could be 60. Sounds very plausible. Canon is not as good as Sony/Nikon maximising low light performance (by BSI) and they will not allow themselves to sacrifice too much high iso performance compared to the d850 and the upcoming high MP Sony. 60 will be class leading compared to Nikon by a safe margin. They probably know what sony is up to and they will still lead or accept 2nd place as it's not really that relevant for real world usage compared to iso performance. It would surprise me if sony makes a pixelcount jump way above the 60 mark. There seems to be a plateau in performance around these mp counts and 50+ looks to be well enough for most use cases. Truly higher would only demand even better glass and Canon as wel as Sony just released a whole set of lenses that would probably perform well on 50-60 mp bodies but would not clearly benefit a near 100mp sensor.

 

[rrcphoto]

We’ve heard other rumblings about a high megapixel replacement, and that these cameras won’t be on 5 year product cycles. I too expect to see this new camera some time in 2018.

also this seems to fail the sniff test with canon already actively demo'ing a 120MP camera in a 5D body for the 2 years.

It could pass the sniff test in that the 5DS2 could have been considered weak in FPS (yes, I know that wasn't its priority mission), so Canon upped it to 7 fps and needed consider the strain of higher mp files, especially if it doesn't change the cards used

5DSr isn't really a D850 direct on competitor. canon will shift it and sell it based upon the Mp's and quality of output.

I think if they get it over 3-4 they'll be happy. dual digic 7's should be able to get it around 3.5 to 4 fps given they do 9fps at 24mp already.

and you didn't really answer the actively demo'ing part. they aren't going to change this late in the process, the sensor and the core featureset of the camera.

The reason that doesn't sound necessarily crazy is that the competition may by next year have truly swamped the 5d4. Nikon 850 seems to have. So having a 60mp 7fps Canon body might be a handy thing for them. That might be a better answer to Nikon than a 30mp 7 fps camera + a 100mp 4.5 fps camera.

I woudn't be surprised if canon does an "n" upgrade to the 5D Mark IV. incorporate the video changes, increase it's core fps,etc.

canon in the past has competed with nikon on mp's over fps. D700 as a good example.

 

[rrcphoto]

technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.

canon's never measured or discussed a sensor that way, and the raws from the camera where over 210MB.

 

[[email protected]]

120 mp would just make people change to Sigma glass

I wonder if the business modeling shows that having a 100+ mp sensor would cause many people to adopt Sigma lenses, breaking the stigma on third party glass for the area of the market to which it still holds.

I shall now retreat to my fireproof bunker.

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: 120 mp would just make people change to Sigma glass

I wonder if the business modeling shows that having a 100+ mp sensor would cause many people to adopt Sigma lenses, breaking the stigma on third party glass for the area of the market to which it still holds.

I shall now retreat to my fireproof bunker.

heh. that's the assumption that sigma art lenses are actually better overall then their canon correspondants.

DLO in camera and also in DPP would have a HUGE bearing on this high density files, as they will mathematically devolute diffraction effects.

IMO, i'd never consider using a third party lens on a high mp body simply because of that reason.

also no one is really going to view images at 100% with a 120Mp sensor unless they are completely crazy.

however images printed at the same size for a 40mp sensor (looking at you nikon) or a 50mp sensor (looking at you 5dsr) compared to a 120mp sensor will be significantly better for the 120mp sensor regardless of lens.

while the center portion can be used to get a "digital zoom" effect down to m43's it actually removes for the first time the benefit of m43's entirely from the discussion.

 

[[email protected]]

Crazy idea

I don't want to get my hopes up, but here's a crazy idea.

Perhaps the 60 instead of 120 megapixels is due to a new type of dual-pixel AF technology, where they are using two full pixels instead of two photodiodes within each pixel. Two individual pixels could be married together virtually in software to create the DP AF effect.

That - I believe - would double the light per diode reading and potentially do two important things:
1) Allow better image quality
2) Increase the parallax between diodes, making the DP RAW features much more useful.

It would, however, require a crazy 120mp sensor. Just saying.

 

[mmeerdam]

technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.

canon's never measured or discussed a sensor that way, and the raws from the camera where over 210MB.

It's factual measuring how many independent photosites (is that the right word?) there are. Canon just choose to implement a circuit that combines the output per 2 (or have them separate as a dual pixel raw file). It's more the microlens and color filter array on top and how the data is subsequently interpreted that makes it a 60mp sensor.

There are still 120 million light sensing pixels on there. Even if they don't choose to market it that way.

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: Crazy idea

I don't want to get my hopes up, but here's a crazy idea.

Perhaps the 60 instead of 120 megapixels is due to a new type of dual-pixel AF technology, where they are using two full pixels instead of two photodiodes within each pixel. Two individual pixels could be married together virtually in software to create the DP AF effect.

That - I believe - would double the light per diode reading and potentially do two important things:
1) Allow better image quality
2) Increase the parallax between diodes, making the DP RAW features much more useful.

It would, however, require a crazy 120mp sensor. Just saying.

again, they called it a 120MP camera, with 120 effective MP's... the same way they have called every other camera. this was in a press announcement. they've demo'ed the camera. people have already checked the raw size in preview (and resolution) I'd honestly give a higher CR rating to a published press announcement from canon versus a CR2 rating rumor, but that's just me

two full pixels wouldn't work for DPAF. the reason it works is because the pixel is split in half and the left pixel is "turned around" from the right one.

also,

if canon is going for ultimate IQ. DPAF is the last thing they should be implementing. DPAF costs probably around 1/3 to 1/2EV performance off the base sensor going by the only few samples and comparisions we have of similar technology points. (70D to T6i sensor performance)

that's another reason it really doesn't pass the sniff test. I can't see this being DPAF if it's the "ultimate DR/landscape/MP camera". the two really don't combine.

 

[rrcphoto]

technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.

canon's never measured or discussed a sensor that way, and the raws from the camera where over 210MB.

It's factual measuring how many independent photosites (is that the right word?) there are. Canon just choose to implement a circuit that combines the output per 2 (or have them separate as a dual pixel raw file).

right and is the 5d mark iv called a 60mp camera?

 

[mmeerdam]

technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.

canon's never measured or discussed a sensor that way, and the raws from the camera where over 210MB.

It's factual measuring how many independent photosites (is that the right word?) there are. Canon just choose to implement a circuit that combines the output per 2 (or have them separate as a dual pixel raw file).

right and is the 5d mark iv called a 60mp camera?

it's not. But there is 60mp worth of individual pixel data in a 5d4 dual pixel raw file. That data has to come from somewhere doesn't it ;-). I invite you to manually count it if you don't believe me .

 

[rrcphoto]

technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.

canon's never measured or discussed a sensor that way, and the raws from the camera where over 210MB.

It's factual measuring how many independent photosites (is that the right word?) there are. Canon just choose to implement a circuit that combines the output per 2 (or have them separate as a dual pixel raw file).

right and is the 5d mark iv called a 60mp camera?

it's not. But there is 60mp worth of individual pixel data in a 5d4 dual pixel raw file. That data to come from somewhere doesn't it ;-). I invite you to manually count it if you don't believe me .

so canon isn't calling the 5D Mark IV that, but they are going to change their entire convention with the 5DsR.

Right.

not to mention, why is there DPAF involved in this camera anyways. unless it turns out it's a mirrorless camera, there's no way i'd want to see a DPAF sensor on a ultimate landscape/dr/mp body.

it makes no sense, you're losing around 1/3 to 1/2 EV just for splitting the pixels in half and adding the extra switch per pixel pair, for no reason because no one is buying this for video.

this camera is going against the FUji and the Nikon DSLR's .. it's got to have it's DR issues in order, and a higher effective DR than the IV has.