Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]

Maiaibing

EOS 6D MK II
Mar 7, 2014
1,054
2
Kabul
www.flickr.com
rrcphoto said:
Maiaibing said:
jolyonralph said:
I'd love a 120mpx camera, but I don't think there's enough demand for it, because it will be a pain to work with such huge files, it'll be slow and you'll have to downsample almost everything to make it worthwhile.
You are confused. There is no need to "downsample" anything - ever. "Downsampling" is not something any photographer "does" with his/her pictures and has nothing to do with how you view your results on screen or in print - its only - and exclusively - used as a technical path to compare different sensors, but has no meaning when viewing your resulting final images.
sure they do. I take 600mp stitched images all the time and downsample them for additional clarity and sharpness.

My sigma merrills are marvelous for doing this.
You're not downsampling anything. You're just stiching and printning (or viewing) at the size you prefer. Nothing different from what you would do with any other camera - no matter what pixel count.
 

cgc

Feb 9, 2016
8
12
I hope the AA filter version is still available on 5DS mark II.

Take a look at the balconys on this image at F4 (at the platform at the far left, or in the buildings):

https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS8256x6192~sample_galleries/7707853581/3016826142.jpg

Not a 5DSR, but the last shocking example caused by the lack of AA filter I bookmarked. In a totally normal picture (not a textile subject). Any human made structure is prone to moire.

The AA filter does not reduces the detail: only requires the proper sharpening tecnique (e.g. deconvolution) to restore 99% of the image information. But its lack hugely increases the chances of causing a non recoverable damage.

The AA-less hype is pure silly marketing Canon engineers has resisted up to date. Most buyers have no scientific base, and some even are photo-illiterates spreading just nonsense (in this thread there is even people suggesting a 5D4 AA-less with less pixels!).

We hope Canon continue giving us the choice and running by technical rationale.
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
4,514
2,270
Irving, Texas
mmeerdam said:
rrcphoto said:
mmeerdam said:
rrcphoto said:
mmeerdam said:
rrcphoto said:
mmeerdam said:
technically it would be a 120 MP body. Dual pixels though.
canon's never measured or discussed a sensor that way, and the raws from the camera where over 210MB.
It's factual measuring how many independent photosites (is that the right word?) there are. Canon just choose to implement a circuit that combines the output per 2 (or have them separate as a dual pixel raw file).
right and is the 5d mark iv called a 60mp camera?
it's not. But there is 60mp worth of individual pixel data in a 5d4 dual pixel raw file. That data to come from somewhere doesn't it ;-). I invite you to manually count it if you don't believe me :p .
so canon isn't calling the 5D Mark IV that, but they are going to change their entire convention with the 5DsR.

Right.
Are you actually that stupid or just acting dumb? I'm not saying they will call it that. I'm just arguing 60 is very plausible as we know they are able to make sensors with 120 million pixels in some form on it. Which is exacly 2 times 60 million dual pixels. I'm not replying to this anymore. We all know what's been out there by Canon for the last year. Nobody needs you to remind us what Canon calls stuff or doesn't call stuff. Let's see you return with some logical constructive insight instead of mindless nay saying.
Actually, I needed his reminders. Now, untwist your panties.
 

Jopa

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 11, 2015
1,056
0
cgc said:
I hope the AA filter version is still available on 5DS mark II.

Take a look at the balconys on this image at F4 (at the platform at the far left, or in the buildings):

https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS8256x6192~sample_galleries/7707853581/3016826142.jpg

Not a 5DSR, but the last shocking example caused by the lack of AA filter I bookmarked. In a totally normal picture (not a textile subject). Any human made structure is prone to moire.

The AA filter does not reduces the detail: only requires the proper sharpening tecnique (e.g. deconvolution) to restore 99% of the image information. But its lack hugely increases the chances of causing a non recoverable damage.

The AA-less hype is pure silly marketing Canon engineers has resisted up to date. Most buyers have no scientific base, and some even are photo-illiterates spreading just nonsense (in this thread there is even people suggesting a 5D4 AA-less with less pixels!).

We hope Canon continue giving us the choice and running by technical rationale.
It can offer something like a variable AA filter similar to the Sont RX-1 II to satisfy everybody :)
 

jolyonralph

EOS R Mark II
Aug 25, 2015
1,133
370
London, UK
www.everyothershot.com
Sharpening an image that has been through an AA filter will not restore detail. It will create detail that may, or may not, look similar to the detail that was lost. There's no magic way to get that detail back. Once it has been defocused you're reliant on algorithms that insert artificial sharpness. They do seem to work most of the time, but especially for monochrome work there's no substitute for having a sensor without an AA filter.

Having spent a good decade or so of my life writing image processing algorithms including multiple sharpening/unsharp mask methods I do know a thing or two about this.

In addition, I've shot tens of thousands of images on my 5DSR, landscape, portrait, macro, etc, etc. And I can't say I have found a single image that has been ruined by moire. Maybe I'm just lucky.
 

Orangutan

EOR R
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
jolyonralph said:
In addition, I've shot tens of thousands of images on my 5DSR, landscape, portrait, macro, etc, etc. And I can't say I have found a single image that has been ruined by moire. Maybe I'm just lucky.
A single person's experiences with/without AA filters represent personal style and preference...anecdotes. The collective experience would be data. My question to you: have you looked on the web for complaints or examples of others who have found Moire to be unacceptable in cameras without AA filters?

I find it hard to believe that Canon, with all its engineers, would include AA filters in other bodies if it weren't beneficial. At what point are pixels small enough to eliminate the need for AA filters? My guess is that the answer is something quantumish.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,633
824
privatebydesign said:
I like the sound of the modest mp bump.

BUT, if it has on chip ADC type base IQ improvements I'll get one whatever else is or isn't on the spec sheet, if it doesn't I won't.

These 1DS model range replacements really are about one thing and everything else is iceing and cherries. Don't care about fps though more than 2 will beat out most medium format, don't want a $916 additional 2 fps option either. Don't care one iota for 4k or video in general from this model. GPS has become a nice additional way of sorting images so like that. I'd prefer an Ethernet port over headphone and mic ports, tethering is way more important than video for this particular model. If it has to have two card slots make them the same type and spec goddamit! Fully functional touch screen, Canon are the best at touch screens so run with it. BUT, Canon, give us the base IQ you have shown you can.......
On Chip ADC and DPAF are much bigger improvements than a MP bump IMHO. Ethernet port would be nice, but unlikely. Its a 5D MK IV with more MP, any other improvements are more likely tweaks.
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
Maiaibing said:
rrcphoto said:
Maiaibing said:
jolyonralph said:
I'd love a 120mpx camera, but I don't think there's enough demand for it, because it will be a pain to work with such huge files, it'll be slow and you'll have to downsample almost everything to make it worthwhile.
You are confused. There is no need to "downsample" anything - ever. "Downsampling" is not something any photographer "does" with his/her pictures and has nothing to do with how you view your results on screen or in print - its only - and exclusively - used as a technical path to compare different sensors, but has no meaning when viewing your resulting final images.
sure they do. I take 600mp stitched images all the time and downsample them for additional clarity and sharpness.

My sigma merrills are marvelous for doing this.
You're not downsampling anything. You're just stiching and printning (or viewing) at the size you prefer. Nothing different from what you would do with any other camera - no matter what pixel count.

no, I actually downsample.

I take the image at it's 600mp and when I'm ready to save for final printing, i change the resolution DOWN and choose an appropriate sampling algorithm. that's downsampling.

when you print, even when you don't downsample it happens during the print process anyways.

when you view the full image on your screen,it's significantly downsampled.
 

aceflibble

EOS RP
May 8, 2015
296
62
Canon Rumors said:
Anything this far out is generally considered unlikely to come to fruition,
That's a really dumb thing to say, as if bodies and lenses aren't worked on for years before public release.

Realistically, once a body or lens has hit a prototype stage, the manufacturer is confident in the spec. Elements may change to small degrees—a button moved a millimetre to the left, USB 2 swapped for USB 3, menu items moved to a different order, etc—but nothing drastic. All the core functionality is in place before money is invested into making test cameras, and the major spec is only changed if there has been a significant fault with the design. (Which is increasingly rare, this far into the digital life cycle.)

Remember, the 24-105 mk II was prototyped and in the hands of select pros more than 18 months before the public announcement and the shape of the IS and AF switches is the only thing which got changed. Fuji got their medium format system out in the field more than a year ahead of public announcement and literally nothing changed in that time. Nearly all of Sigma's lenses spend more than a year in the wild before public announcement and there's no record of a single one changing in that time.

If there is a 5DS mk II coming for the end of next year then yes, it absolutely stands to reason that there are already prototypes around, and following that, history tells us that whatever those prototypes are currently running is 90% what the final SKU will be.

A year, year and a half; these time frames are not "far out". More like two thirds of the way to launch; certainly over halfway.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,059
333
Vancouver, BC
aceflibble said:
Canon Rumors said:
Anything this far out is generally considered unlikely to come to fruition,
That's a really dumb thing to say, as if bodies and lenses aren't worked on for years before public release.
The issue is not that Canon doesn't know what's going into the 5DS2; it's that all of us don't. Until we get closer and the leaks become of a higher quality, at this point, it's as much speculation as anything.

Now, if someone who actually has a prototype speaks up (anonymously), that would be different.
 

The Supplanter

EOS T7i
Aug 1, 2015
60
7
midluk said:
I hope the "Identical body to the EOS 5D Mark IV" part is not true. As a high resolution camera that is often used in live view on a tripod, an up-down tilting screen would be really useful.
I was thinking the same thing. I would love to see a great performing FF with the Vari-angle Touch Screen LCD.
 

traveller

EOS 6D MK II
Jul 22, 2010
895
58
aceflibble said:
Canon Rumors said:
Anything this far out is generally considered unlikely to come to fruition,
That's a really dumb thing to say, as if bodies and lenses aren't worked on for years before public release.

Realistically, once a body or lens has hit a prototype stage, the manufacturer is confident in the spec. Elements may change to small degrees—a button moved a millimetre to the left, USB 2 swapped for USB 3, menu items moved to a different order, etc—but nothing drastic. All the core functionality is in place before money is invested into making test cameras, and the major spec is only changed if there has been a significant fault with the design. (Which is increasingly rare, this far into the digital life cycle.)

Remember, the 24-105 mk II was prototyped and in the hands of select pros more than 18 months before the public announcement and the shape of the IS and AF switches is the only thing which got changed. Fuji got their medium format system out in the field more than a year ahead of public announcement and literally nothing changed in that time. Nearly all of Sigma's lenses spend more than a year in the wild before public announcement and there's no record of a single one changing in that time.

If there is a 5DS mk II coming for the end of next year then yes, it absolutely stands to reason that there are already prototypes around, and following that, history tells us that whatever those prototypes are currently running is 90% what the final SKU will be.

A year, year and a half; these time frames are not "far out". More like two thirds of the way to launch; certainly over halfway.
I can see both points here, as we don't know the release date. If it's for a Photokina 2018 announcement, with an end of year shipping date, then you'd expect the specifications to be pretty firm and the pre-production bodies to start hitting the usual suspects for testing quite soon (when the proper leaks will start ;)). If it's further out than that, anything still goes.

We don't have enough data points to go on, as the 5DS line is only one generation old. It was released nearly three years after the 5DIII, which lead some people to question whether it was a replacement, despite Canon's assertions to the contrary (which were proven correct by the 5DIV release last year). We are now hearing that we won't have to wait as long for the 5DSII, remember that Canon used to get the 1Ds out within a year of the equivalent generation 1D...

We also don't yet have enough data points to know whether the 5DS series will follow the same pattern of being the same body as the "high speed" version but with "high resolution" and a speed trade-off, but it is a reasonable assumption that this is what Canon will do. Unfortunately, this does mean that if you are a 5DS series buyer and want a feature that did not feature on that generation's 5D, then you've got a long wait! Looks like no articulating screen or bigger viewfinder for me then :(
 

hne

Gear limits your creativity
Jan 8, 2016
307
25
keithcooper said:
rrcphoto said:
...
and you're wrong on the lenses, you're into the world of oversampling. every lens will improve even the worst.
+1 that.

A lot of earnest uniformed nonsense about lenses not being good enough was spouted when I first got a 1Ds3, and similarly with the 5Ds

Experience suggests that 120MP will give bigger and better files from all my lenses (it is bayer as well BTW)

'Just' 60MP might remind me why I previously updated every other model release.
60MP also happens to be where a 2x2 binning starts becoming a useable resolution. 15MP with full colour at each pixel is easily enough for most use, including really nice A3+/SuperB prints.
 

traveller

EOS 6D MK II
Jul 22, 2010
895
58
Canon Rumors said:
Update 09/04/2017 @ 16:56 EST: Keep in mind that Canon uses APS-H sensors in some test bodies and this can affect pixel count.
If they're still at the APS-H test sensor stage, I doubt we'll see a 5DSII next year! Or are you implying that your source may have got their facts muddled?
 

Hector1970

EOS 6D MK II
Mar 22, 2012
1,116
309
On moire I've never had an issue with it on a 5DSR.
I'm sure it could occur but I haven't noticed.
64MP or 120 MP sounds great but even 50MP is a bit of a pain.
You need a very good Laptop / PC to handle the files quickly.
Most off the shelf ones are too slow.
My wish for a 5DSR II would be better image quality especially at higher ISO's
The current one is very good in perfect conditions.
I don't like the noise at higher ISOs. In my version it's smudgy (very like my 7DII noise).
I've found my 5D III and 5IV better at higher ISO's and grain finer.
An increase in frame rate if it could cope would be good.
I'd like a wider dynamic range even if it matched the best currently I'd be satisfied.
 

unfocused

EOS 1D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
5,256
1,873
66
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
traveller said:
Canon Rumors said:
Update 09/04/2017 @ 16:56 EST: Keep in mind that Canon uses APS-H sensors in some test bodies and this can affect pixel count.
If they're still at the APS-H test sensor stage, I doubt we'll see a 5DSII next year! Or are you implying that your source may have got their facts muddled?
This makes no sense. The only difference between the 5D and 5Ds is the sensor. There is nothing else to test.
 

Canoneer

EOS T7i
Sep 6, 2017
73
3
rrcphoto said:
and like I said, canon's already been actively demo'ing the 120MP DSLR for the past two years and have actually stated "it's coming.. " it's actually in development now since sept 2016, as a 120MP DSLR. Again, that's not even a rumor, it's already been stated by canon. So what there's going to be two more different high resolution 5D's coming out? that seems unlikely.

and you're wrong on the lenses, you're into the world of oversampling. every lens will improve even the worst.
The lens quality issue won't be a problem if the oversampling ratio is 4:1; a 120MP image with 4:1 oversampling would yield a 30MP image, which is well within the resolving power of all Canon L glass. The problems would arise when attempting to use the full 120MP image resolution without oversampling. Only a handful of L series primes stopped down between F4 and F8 would be capable of corner to corner sharpness at that resolution. But as long as Canon provides the means to record both full-size 120MP RAW files and 30MP oversampled RAW files, then photographers get the best of both worlds. The 120MP may not give you corner-to-corner sharpness with any given lens, but it does give you the ability to crop in the center with a factor of 2 and still yield an image of 5D mk.4 quality. Meanwhile, an oversampled image of 30MP would blow away a 5D mk.4 in terms of IQ with greater DR, and fewer false color artifacts.
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,254
482
unfocused said:
traveller said:
Canon Rumors said:
Update 09/04/2017 @ 16:56 EST: Keep in mind that Canon uses APS-H sensors in some test bodies and this can affect pixel count.
If they're still at the APS-H test sensor stage, I doubt we'll see a 5DSII next year! Or are you implying that your source may have got their facts muddled?
This makes no sense. The only difference between the 5D and 5Ds is the sensor. There is nothing else to test.
You might want to look at the spec sheets for the 5DIII, the 5DS, and the 5DIV.