Canon EOS R body with more than 75mp on the horizon [CR2]

[proutprout]

A very high MP camera is utterly overkill for 4K video (it's only got less than 8 MP in the file) , let's hope they don't waste effort, time and cost on including video at all. High MP is for stills, not for video.

Unless it does 8K, no ?

 

[koenkooi]

[..] If you're not seeking more MP then what does the D850 really offer over the 5D4? The only thing that stands out is a higher frame rate when using a battery grip. Even the DR gap is so narrow, in this comparison, as to be of little practical value.

From the observations I picked up from youtube, AF-Servo tracks things like birds really, really well. I haven't seen a 1:1 comparison between the 5D4 and D850 for that yet, though.

 

[justaCanonuser]

I really hope it’s not resolution for the sake of it. When the 5DSR was released I hired it alongside the D810 and always picked up the D810. You got a few less megapixels but the files were much cleaner. Better low light performance, better dynamic range and less noise.

The 5DIV was a step in the right direction and the sensor was much better than the 5DSR. Let’s hope the sensor holds up in areas other than just resolution.

I agree. I hope that, if Canon's marketing thinks they need to restart the Megapixel race to regain a bold high-tech reputation, they will also release a prosumer R model with a moderate MP count for photographers. Such small pixels on a 35mm sensor don't really make sense, because diffraction blur will limit the range of useful f-stop numbers to well below f/5.6, when closing the aperture further its extremely high resolution will get gradually lost (I know a bit about the inescapable wave nature of light, I am a physicist). So the images get more and more soft on the pixel level with smaller apertures. One can re-sharpen such soft images digitally, of course, but the trade-off is growing artefacts. Once a visual information is lost, it is lost. Btw this is now new finding, you can read about this fact of physics in classic photography textbooks.

I know somebody who still uses old 12 MP Nikons and produces gorgeous A3 (!!) prints in which on can see every little hair and skin pore. You could sell her prints to people as a result of a 40+ MP camera and they would believe it.

 

[M_S]

All of the following is IMO I said it before in another thread. I see no point in getting higher than 50 MP. That's plenty of resolution and visible diffraction sets in already at f 7 and is clearly visible at f11. Other areas that needs improving is better ISO performance in existing values and higher ISO overall to compensate for shakes and not normal shooting behaviour because of the high resolution. They need to improve upon snappier performance overall, manual lens assistance (peaking, enlargement area in the EVF etc.), WIFI/bluetooth support for remote control, DPAF, perhaps some fps more. This would be an instant buy. 75 MP pose different problems, at least for my shooting style, as I don't want to rest the camera on the tripod all the time. Computational power is a factor that kicks in panaroma stitching with full force already on a workstation with 2 XEON processors. So I am good with what the 5DSR has to offer in terms of resolution. All that coming from a happy 5DSR owner.

 

[AlanF]

At around 3.5um which is what you need for ~75 megapixels you'll hit diffraction issues starting around f/8

How did you get f/8? According to TDP, the DLA for the 5DS is f/6.7, which scales to f/5.5 for a 75 mpx sensor - see my earlier post. You can see for MTF charts from photozone that diffraction effects are beginning to set in at f/5.6 for the 5DSR and are noticeable at f/8, which squares with the TDP figure.

When diffraction sets in is determined by pixel size and f-number. The DLA for a 75 mpx FF sensor is f/5.5, so diffraction won't seriously affect the current fast zooms and primes.

 

[Del Paso]

I agree. I hope that, if Canon's marketing thinks they need to restart the Megapixel race to regain a bold high-tech reputation, they will also release a prosumer R model with a moderate MP count for photographers. Such small pixels on a 35mm sensor don't really make sense, because diffraction blur will limit the range of useful f-stop numbers to well below f/5.6, when closing the aperture further its extremely high resolution will get gradually lost (I know a bit about the inescapable wave nature of light, I am a physicist). So the images get more and more soft on the pixel level with smaller apertures. One can re-sharpen such soft images digitally, of course, but the trade-off is growing artefacts. Once a visual information is lost, it is lost. Btw this is now new finding, you can read about this fact of physics in classic photography textbooks.

I know somebody who still uses old 12 MP Nikons and produces gorgeous A3 (!!) prints in which on can see every little hair and skin pore. You could sell her prints to people as a result of a 40+ MP camera and they would believe it.

I couldn't agree more, a so-called advantage can mean disadvantages in many situations (f/8 to f/16, for example in macro, shake related blur), and we should never forget, that a camera is a whole, and not just more MP than it's competitors. Sorry, but this MP race is getting increasingly senseless (no offence meant). Sounds like buying a car for its horsepower rating only...
For MP hunters, there are Hasselblads, Leica S or Fuji's latest models.

 

[Del Paso]

I really want to see a 5dsr 2 come out, hopefully mirrorless. I do like high resolution bodies, and with the new RF lenses this should be a great combo. I really hope though that they can pull this off with DR at least as good as the 5D4. I was hoping for something around 50 mp, basically a mirrorless 5dsr. And although storage is cheaper than ever, 75 mp files would be just crazy large. So maybe just making a really, really good 50 mp sensor in a more 5d-like R body would not be such a bad idea. I think that’s what a lot of us 5dsr owners would go for. Or maybe just me.

No, you're not alone!

 

[padam]

I couldn't agree more, a so-called advantage can mean disadvantages in many situations (f/8 to f/16, for example in macro, shake related blur), and we should never forget, that a camera is a whole, and not just more MP than it's competitors. Sorry, but this MP race is getting increasingly senseless (no offence meant). Sounds like buying a car for its horsepower rating only...
For MP hunters, there are Hasselblads, Leica S or Fuji's latest models.

So what's exactly the problem with Canon putting their name on this list as well, if they are designing most of their lenses for the new RF mount with higher resolution in mind?
Just like the 5DsR it is a speciality model, which the user can choose or skip (it will be pricey). We haven't even seen the features yet and people are worried.
I wouldn't be surprised it it had a mode not to produce 75MP files.

If it has a DPAF sensor like all current Canon cameras and probably similar dynamic range, but with the usage of a fully electronic shutter, it may also have some trick mode (evolving from the HDR video mode) to use all those pixels to increase the dynamic range if the camera is locked down on a tripod (just like Sony using the electronic shutter for Pixel-Shift mode but this may only be a single exposure, which would increase its usefulness)

 

[dtaylor]

Such small pixels on a 35mm sensor don't really make sense, because diffraction blur will limit the range of useful f-stop numbers to well below f/5.6...

A higher resolution sensor will never perform worse than a lower resolution sensor due to diffraction or motion blur. Blur may stand out more when pixel peeping at 100% because the higher resolution file is enlarged more, but it's not actually any worse at the same view/print size.

Diffraction is also not a brick wall. "Diffraction Limited Aperture" is terrible terminology because it causes people to think of it as a brick wall. It's a gradually increasing blur effect (which is not consistent across all visible wavelengths of light). A sensor with a DLA of f/5.6 might look the same at f/22 as a lower resolution sensor. But it will yield higher resolution at f/8 and f/11 despite its so called "limited" aperture value.

Jumping from 50mp to 75mp in a 35mm sensor is definitely getting into diminishing returns. But there are returns to be had. It's unlikely this pixel density jump is going to impact high ISO or DR performance, so it doesn't make sense for Canon to avoid doing it if they can. Sticking to 50mp is not going to give them a better sensor for stills.

Video and stills frame rate are two things which might be negatively impacted by such a high resolution. But then again Canon has to have something to put in their 40mp R-5DIV.

 

[zonoskar]

That would make a 29Mpix 1.6x crop for EFs lenses. Nice! No need for a 7D equivalent in the EOS-R series then.

 

[docsmith]

A couple quick things I thought were interesting:

• This was not among the rumored releases: https://www.canonrumors.com/lots-of-new-mirrorless-and-dslr-cameras-in-the-pipeline/
• We are told we have 2 EOS-R cameras coming, that would put K433 in the above rumor as the ~26 MP EOS-R camera, likely as the first to be released and positioned below the current EOS-R.
• ~75 MP is approximately 10600x7070 pixels, or about a 1.22x increase in linear resolution over the 5DsR, or about the difference of going from a 500 mm lens to a 600 mm.
• 75 MP would be equivalent to ~30 MP on crop. That sensor does not yet exist, although is not out of reach. For the 5Ds, Canon upscaled an existing APS-C sensor from the 7DII. I would expect a ~30 MP crop sensor to be coming. Previous rumors about releases were 24 MP, which would scale up to ~61 MP.
• This is not one of the Sony sensors Canon is rumored to be considering.

Just a thought, CR3 makes 75MP much more palatable than CR2, or Sony's compressed raw option (which has quite a noticeable drop in quality). I wonder what the CR3 (compressed) file size will be.

If Canon gets the rest of the camera right, I think it might be one I buy -- a high megapixel camera would be a nice tool in the kit.

Just what I was thinking. I am all for tools and each of us choosing a different tool for our job, but for this to be appealing to the mass audience you need to address the most significant limitations.

For large sensor cameras, that is image size. Had they stayed with CR2, a 22% increase in image resolution would give you a 50% larger file. That is pretty significant.

I'd be tempted by this camera. I can tell you the first things I will be looking for are file size in RAW, sRAW, and mRAW and if it has a legit crop sensor mode that shoots a 30 MP/MB crop at ~9-10 fps.

 

[Hector1970]

People are starting to get very intolerant of other people’s opinions here. Some people want 75MP and others don’t.
My own perspective is I’d pass on a 75MP camera and hope for a better all rounder than the 5DIV.
I own a 5DSR and a 5DIV and I would always favour the 5DIV. For me and what I photograph it produces better images and is more flexible.
I find the 50MP files overkill and at the volume I photograph it creates storage issues.
So great for those who want it if the 75MP comes along. It’s great advertising for Canon. I’ll wait for the 5DR

 

[Kit.]

Depending on sensor readout speed, and the method used to scale down to 4k or 1080p, a higher resolution sensor could be at a disadvantage for video. But not for stills.

...in an ideal world, where your camera is well-cooled, prefocused and directly connected to the power grid.

 

[YuengLinger]

I won't call them trolls, but I will point out (again) that there's no reason to believe a 50mp sensor would be better than a 75mp sensor for a given level of technology. I'm not saying higher pixel density never involves trade offs. But at this point in time it doesn't seem to involve any trade offs for the pixel densities we're seeing in APS-C and 35mm sensors.



If you're not seeking more MP then what does the D850 really offer over the 5D4? The only thing that stands out is a higher frame rate when using a battery grip. Even the DR gap is so narrow, in this comparison, as to be of little practical value.

There are some advantages beyond the MP, but there are also trade offs, such as Nikon not having great AF in Live View. Fair enough, the grass always looks greener on the other side of the (brand) fence. I was wishing out loud for MY ideal next RF body, one that keeps all the best features of the 5D IV and marries them blissfully with the best of the D850. (Canon corporate office just smiles, chuckles, and bows.)

 

[JonSnow]

well canon can easily put more MP on the sensor and sacrificing per pixel image quality.
the chills will then say "you can downsample".
but i want high megapixels images that look good 1:1.... not only when downsampled.

want i want to say is ... if canon does not match D850/ A7R III DR and noise levels with this 75MP camera they should better release a 40-50MP version that focuses on enhancing the shortcommings of current canon sensors.

just putting more MP in a camera is like promoting 8K TV´s when there is basically no 8k content.

the sony sensors get so much praise because they are high megapixel AND have fantastic DR and noise performance.

 

[Yakodzun]

Better have a fast computer processor for those kind of images, plus lots of memory. And can PS keep up?
And if you're a pixel peeper, you're doomed!

I don’t see a problem. MacBook Pro can deal with my Phase One IQ3 80Mp.

 

[JonSnow]

M

It's so funny. Canon is always trashed for their lack of innovation and being so conservative. And yet, if they come out with a camera that is innovative and not at all conservative and they are trashed for that as well. Says little about Canon and lots about the trolling nature

More Megapixel are now innovation..... good you are telling us that.

Or wait ....are you saying the multibar on the eos r is a great innovation?

The innovative thing are the EOS R lenses.... but sure not the EOS R body.
Basically all of the EOS R features can be found in cameras that are a few years old.

Well i said forever that mirrorless should have a sensor dust protection.
That is nice to see in the EOS R

 

[Sporgon]

Heck, I just ordered the Tamron SP 45mm f/1.8 VC, which, IN MY OPINION, got some great reviews.

Let us know how you get on with it. It's now my most used lens with very good sharpness across the frame, even at f/1.8, but with a lovely transition and soft bokeh, and this characteristic continues when stopped down. I guess this is why, within the design, Tamron had to allow it to have pretty strong, uncorrected axial CA's.

 

[Tangent]

So, how would they name it?

EOS RDs? RDs R? Rs? RsR? RR?

This camera will be intended as Canon's way to get the last laugh over Sony and Nikon; it will therefore be called the RD RR.

 

[JonSnow]

You can always have a 75 mpx camera and shoot at a lower resolution. Theoretically a 75 mpx camera shot at 30 mpx would be better than a 30 mpx camera shot at 30 mpx.

Smaller photosites are good now.... did not know that.

I guess you meant to talk about downsampling.

Shooting at 75MP and downsampling to 30 MP.