Canon EOS R Mark II in testing [CR2]

Architect1776

Defining the poetics of space through Architecture
Aug 18, 2017
524
473
118
Williamsport, PA
To some extent Canon has been trying for more feedback the past couple of years. If memory serves me correctly, at least twice within the past few years Canon has sent out very detailed email surveys to me about what I wanted to see in future cameras and problems I have faced with present ones. The surveys were many pages long.

Unfortunately, I never completed one as they got more and more intrusive into details I felt were none of Canon's bleeping business and if you did not answer all questions the submission of the survey was denied.

Up until recently, I had been a CPS member since the early '80s. I still use Canon cameras and lenses, I have had attractions to other systems, primarily the Nikon 850, but have not concluded the benefits of a new system outweigh the costs.
Exactly. They have changed substantially from "Years" ago.
 

juststeve

EOS M50
Nov 29, 2018
34
44
In reply to Architect:

Actually, it was a personal interaction "years ago" for me which had a direct effect on a Canon product--the meeting of a VERY VIP from Canon mothership along with a very good senior US Canon rep. The. circumstances were an art show where I was selling my photographs and where I might be asked what camera I was using a few hundred times over the course of the show.

The more recent attempts to garner my feedback--the very corporate PR surveys--failed. They even. PO-ed me to some extent. Of course, I am an ornery old wildlife and landscape photographer best left working alone. No desire to be photographing the Olympics or NFL football or World Cup soccer. Sportskjutaren's video reinforced that for me.

Frankly, I am mostly in agreement with Sportskjutaren opinion Canon is not doing enough to get the opinion of serious photographers actually doing the work. The excellent Canon USA rep who brought the VERY VIP by my booth is now gone. The couple of Canon reps I have met since seem to be doofusses. Perhaps that is unfair, they may be very good at selling and explaining cameras to masses, something which I certainly am not, but they were not listeners and problem solvers. Formulaic surveys may the corporate way to seek feedback but they were ineffective for me. A very good rep and a VIP worked better for me.

Actually, I wish to thank Sportskjutaren for bringing the lack of responsiveness to photographers' needs up. I am pretty much in agreement. If you care to read byThom you will probably see Nikon is doing even poorer at listening to the people in the field even if they somehow make some really fine cameras. And so is Canon. But they all could be better.
 

Ph0t0

EOS M50
Mar 27, 2015
33
13
I do agree!
Leica's digital M cameras have only one card-slot, and yet, are used by many excellent pros (Sebastiao Salgado, for instance).
I also prefer 2 card-slots, but this feature wouldn't make me a better photographer...
Well it wouldn't make you a better photographer, but that extra feature would make it a better camera. Which is what we were discussing: Canon camera gear, not your photography skills.
(I wonder if people on car forums are complaining that inclusion of ABS brakes or airbags won't make them better drivers)

And yeah many pros use all kind of gear from mobile phones to large format cameras and can create beautiful and interesting content with all of them. But that doesn't mean that there aren't certain top tier cameras that are made with professionals in mind and offer lots of features that make them better suited for pros to use on most demanding jobs and thus people and companies brand them as "pro gear". Like I said.. I have no idea why that term bothers some people so much.
 

sportskjutaren

Pro sports photographer
Exactly. They have changed substantially from "Years" ago.
True!
When I thought about it.
It was exactly 5 years ago since I talked with the Swedish CPS rep about how they work with this.
And I can actually remember one email with a link to an online form with questions.
That said:
My main point is that my honest personal opinion is that Sony is much better at this.
I would love to see Canon learn from Sony in this area.

My honest wish is that Canon would improve their support and products as much as possible.

(Sadly, where I live, in Sweden, which is under "Canon Nordic".
There been several cost-cutting activities in the CPS program.
Decreasing the value of the CPS program).

Also, I want to repeat what I wrote earlier in this discussion.
Canon is most welcome to contact me. If so I will do my best to help them improve.
 

sportskjutaren

Pro sports photographer
In reply to Architect:

Actually, it was a personal interaction "years ago" for me which had a direct effect on a Canon product--the meeting of a VERY VIP from Canon mothership along with a very good senior US Canon rep. The. circumstances were an art show where I was selling my photographs and where I might be asked what camera I was using a few hundred times over the course of the show.

The more recent attempts to garner my feedback--the very corporate PR surveys--failed. They even. PO-ed me to some extent. Of course, I am an ornery old wildlife and landscape photographer best left working alone. No desire to be photographing the Olympics or NFL football or World Cup soccer. Sportskjutaren's video reinforced that for me.

Frankly, I am mostly in agreement with Sportskjutaren opinion Canon is not doing enough to get the opinion of serious photographers actually doing the work. The excellent Canon USA rep who brought the VERY VIP by my booth is now gone. The couple of Canon reps I have met since seem to be doofusses. Perhaps that is unfair, they may be very good at selling and explaining cameras to masses, something which I certainly am not, but they were not listeners and problem solvers. Formulaic surveys may the corporate way to seek feedback but they were ineffective for me. A very good rep and a VIP worked better for me.

Actually, I wish to thank Sportskjutaren for bringing the lack of responsiveness to photographers' needs up. I am pretty much in agreement. If you care to read byThom you will probably see Nikon is doing even poorer at listening to the people in the field even if they somehow make some really fine cameras. And so is Canon. But they all could be better.
Thanks for Your reply.
I do hope that somebody from Canon reads what You are writing here!
My honest wish is that Canon will become much better at this.
The better the competition is between the different brands.
The better products we as photographers will get.
 

dba101

Canon 1DC
Sep 11, 2018
45
56
‘Canon is most welcome to contact me. If so I will do my best to help them improve’

Oh yeah, well I’m sure there’s a clue there somewhere.
 

Photo Hack

Hi there
Apr 8, 2019
145
186
‘Canon is most welcome to contact me. If so I will do my best to help them improve’

Oh yeah, well I’m sure there’s a clue there somewhere.
The clue to me seems that within 6 years of Sony stepping into the full frame pro world, they’ve managed to surpass Nikon and Canon in marketshare. Among many reasons for this, one seems to be their aggressive approach to wooing away Canon and Nikons field of pro photographers.

This has been demonstrated by many photographers for anyone who’s been paying attention. We can hate on influencers all we want, but they’re an important part in business and it seems Sony has cozied up to many of them as well in genuinely trying to produce a product that fits their needs. Many have been open about their experience with this and I believe it’s smart business and a good thing.

Capitalism and competition chugging along to produce better gear tailored to the needs of its users.
 

Aussie shooter

@brett.guy.photography
Dec 6, 2016
610
731
If you read my other post earlier in this discussion.
I think You will get a better understanding of what I actually want to say.
That is not that Canons doesn't listen at all.
But that can learn a whole lot from how Sony actively ask and listen to photographers.
To a much bigger degree than Canon.
From my very personal experience, there is actually a really big difference here.
And that it would benefit everybody if Canon got better at this.
I think there is something else being forgotten/ignored here. And that is that canon has had 'professional' equipment for a very long time now and any real improvements can therefore only be incremental and minimal(and judging by the rumored specs of the 1dx3 are definitely on the way). Sony on the other hand has only just managed to produce a piece of gear that comes anywhere close to the 'professional' level of the 1d series(and still lags in many areas) which means that they have a lot of latitude to make big changes that appear to be customer driven.
 

Architect1776

Defining the poetics of space through Architecture
Aug 18, 2017
524
473
118
Williamsport, PA
True!
When I thought about it.
It was exactly 5 years ago since I talked with the Swedish CPS rep about how they work with this.
And I can actually remember one email with a link to an online form with questions.
That said:
My main point is that my honest personal opinion is that Sony is much better at this.
I would love to see Canon learn from Sony in this area.

My honest wish is that Canon would improve their support and products as much as possible.

(Sadly, where I live, in Sweden, which is under "Canon Nordic".
There been several cost-cutting activities in the CPS program.
Decreasing the value of the CPS program).

Also, I want to repeat what I wrote earlier in this discussion.
Canon is most welcome to contact me. If so I will do my best to help them improve.
So you are looking at this matter from a Swedish point of view.
Is this indicative from a global point of view?
 

Photo Hack

Hi there
Apr 8, 2019
145
186
Circle the fanboy wagons!

One persons experience in one part of the world can’t possibly reflect the experience of others, nor be an indicator of broader trends.

I’m curious what your explanations are for Sony to surpass marketshare of Canon and Nikon in the full frame market in less than 6 years.

Sure Canon will probably take it back in 2020, but come on....for “inferior cameras” that’s a remarkable accomplishment.
 

Photo Hack

Hi there
Apr 8, 2019
145
186
I think there is something else being forgotten/ignored here. And that is that canon has had 'professional' equipment for a very long time now and any real improvements can therefore only be incremental and minimal(and judging by the rumored specs of the 1dx3 are definitely on the way). Sony on the other hand has only just managed to produce a piece of gear that comes anywhere close to the 'professional' level of the 1d series(and still lags in many areas) which means that they have a lot of latitude to make big changes that appear to be customer driven.
Is this not true for Canon and Nikon in regards to the same exact Mirrorless full frame market? Do they not have the same path to travel that Sony has been on?
 

sportskjutaren

Pro sports photographer
‘Canon is most welcome to contact me. If so I will do my best to help them improve’

Oh yeah, well I’m sure there’s a clue there somewhere.
Yes, it is!
I definitely prefer to talk with somebody that has the actual power to improve things.
Over discussions with anonymous people over the internet.
The only reason that I write here.
Is that so far my attempts have failed.
 

dba101

Canon 1DC
Sep 11, 2018
45
56
Canon as we all now know are doomed.. End of.
Maybe some guy from Sweden who doesnt even shoot anymore can save their sorry asses.
 
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Aussie shooter

@brett.guy.photography
Dec 6, 2016
610
731
Is this not true for Canon and Nikon in regards to the same exact Mirrorless full frame market? Do they not have the same path to travel that Sony has been on?
to a point yes. But Canon has had professional gear for a lot longer than sony has had a professional mirrorless. In reality up until the a7r4 and a92 sony themselves had produced nothing but doorstops with buttons. canon and Nikon have far less catching up to do than Sony did. And Sony are still lagging in many aspects but at least they seem to a finally learnt that it takes more than a meaningless spec sheet to make a camera. At the rate Canon seem to be going they will have caught up to Sony within 2 generations of bodies in the less important aspects and will likely still lead in the areas that matter
 

Aussie shooter

@brett.guy.photography
Dec 6, 2016
610
731
Circle the fanboy wagons!

One persons experience in one part of the world can’t possibly reflect the experience of others, nor be an indicator of broader trends.

I’m curious what your explanations are for Sony to surpass marketshare of Canon and Nikon in the full frame market in less than 6 years.

Sure Canon will probably take it back in 2020, but come on....for “inferior cameras” that’s a remarkable accomplishment.
Brilliant advertising. Simple as that. Sony have proven to be absolute genuises when it comes to marketing. Getting customers to ignore obvious and serious deficincies and making them think that minor differences are the make and break of a photographer has been pure marketing genuis. Hats off to them for that.
 
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Otara

EOS RP
Jul 16, 2012
300
83
Circle the fanboy wagons!

One persons experience in one part of the world can’t possibly reflect the experience of others, nor be an indicator of broader trends.

I’m curious what your explanations are for Sony to surpass marketshare of Canon and Nikon in the full frame market in less than 6 years.

Sure Canon will probably take it back in 2020, but come on....for “inferior cameras” that’s a remarkable accomplishment.
In Japan.

The sensors mostly. They have a highly dominant position there that they've leveraged into cameras.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,907
1,040
Thanks for Your reply!
It seems like You missed my point.

My point is that Canon has something to learn from Sony about active & humble listening.
And if the do that.
It will benefit all of us!


Have a good day :)
My point is that everything you said Sony listened to you about and included in the α9 II were things that Canon has heard their users request and had already given them a decade ago.

All Sony had to do was pick the low hanging fruit that everyone was requesting because Canon had been offering them for several generations of pro level bodies.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,907
1,040
In reply to Architect:

Actually, it was a personal interaction "years ago" for me which had a direct effect on a Canon product--the meeting of a VERY VIP from Canon mothership along with a very good senior US Canon rep. The. circumstances were an art show where I was selling my photographs and where I might be asked what camera I was using a few hundred times over the course of the show.

The more recent attempts to garner my feedback--the very corporate PR surveys--failed. They even. PO-ed me to some extent. Of course, I am an ornery old wildlife and landscape photographer best left working alone. No desire to be photographing the Olympics or NFL football or World Cup soccer. Sportskjutaren's video reinforced that for me.

Frankly, I am mostly in agreement with Sportskjutaren opinion Canon is not doing enough to get the opinion of serious photographers actually doing the work. The excellent Canon USA rep who brought the VERY VIP by my booth is now gone. The couple of Canon reps I have met since seem to be doofusses. Perhaps that is unfair, they may be very good at selling and explaining cameras to masses, something which I certainly am not, but they were not listeners and problem solvers. Formulaic surveys may the corporate way to seek feedback but they were ineffective for me. A very good rep and a VIP worked better for me.

Actually, I wish to thank Sportskjutaren for bringing the lack of responsiveness to photographers' needs up. I am pretty much in agreement. If you care to read byThom you will probably see Nikon is doing even poorer at listening to the people in the field even if they somehow make some really fine cameras. And so is Canon. But they all could be better.
Chuck was a once in a thousand years type of technical rep. There will never be another like him at Canon or any of the other camera companies. RIP.
 

geffy

EOS M50
Jun 24, 2019
43
25
Canon need a professional mirrorless, the problem is that there is a divide in this market caused by video, many stills photographers only need a basic recording capability at most, influencers and youtubers lust after Hollywood quality from a consumer video product that has potential to become a high end stills camera in a future incarnation