Canon EOS R5 Specifications

slclick

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I don't understand why so many people get worked up at the suggestion that Canon's DSLR and R lines can coexist indefinitely. It's like people think there can only be one true god and everyone who believes otherwise is a heretic. It's not a religion, it's a business and businesses make what sells.

Maybe at some point in the future, the economics of making two different styles of cameras won't work. But they work now and the cost of continuing both formats is certainly less than the cost of developing a new format. Canon has already made the significant front-end investments to bring their mirrorless system to market. The cost of future improvements to both the R and DSLR lines are incremental now.

I like the R. I use it most of the time. But there are some things that DSLRs simply are better at than mirrorless. Maybe Canon will close that gap and when that happens, DLSRs might fade away. But, as a user of both formats, I have to say there are still a lot of advantages to DSLRs and I'm not optimistic that Canon can erase those differences in a single generation or two -- if ever. And, there are people who simply like DSLRs. Do you really think Canon is not going to go after those customers?

As far as the EOS lens line goes, one Canon executive has said they aren't currently planning new lenses. And, in that same statement he said that if customer demand is there, they will offer new lenses. The last several new EOS lenses have been modest generational tweaks. No reason on earth they wouldn't continue to do that if it means selling lenses.

Canon saw they were losing a chunk of the shrinking market to mirrorless, so they jumped into that market. They've never said they were transitioning from DSLRs to Mirrorless. They want to make the pie bigger, not force everyone to eat only apple pie even if some prefer peach pie.

Whatever Canon makes in the future, I'm going to evaluate it according to what meets my needs. If it's a DSLR, I may buy that. If it's mirrorless, I may buy that. I am allowed to own both and Canon is allowed to sell both. Get over it.

Well said. The 1DX3 is a perfect example. I do not believe that if Canon saw the end of DSLR's to be near that they would launch a top tier body, they might continue to pump out Rebel T lines or whatnot sell by the pallets in Costco and WallyWorld. They are telling us they are continuing the line of the most dependable mirrored cameras in the world, with EF mount. To me it is a huge tell.

The lines will continue side by side, just as EF-M and RF mounts will. No need for convergence, they have very different markets and uses. They are also complimentary. Why must so many think the arrival of one thing must mean the demise of another?

If anything I would think the R and RP were made in the M mold. Testing the waters and will be left behind with new lineups which are named and modeled after the 1, 5 and 6 families. They finally had the M5 and 6 settled in and the R and RP were most likely deep into development they HAD to be launched. These M50's and M100's to me are like the T77, one offs which were half measures and in the end, the solid mature models and lines will replace them and their own Mk2's etc will be their successors.

Canon does well with three lens lineups, but because other brands have one or gone to one Canon must follow suit? What has any other camera brand done to follow Canon, not much and if they tried, it failed. Sony filled a gap (they should be commended)... instead of playing side by side like Nikon did for decades ... and Canon did not until this year. Exciting times.
 
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Michael Clark

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I 100% agree with everything above.

Where we've disagreed on this thread is the slope of that downward EF usage, as you pointed out.

1) What Canon wants for maximum profit (pull out the rug ASAP, shut down EF aggressively)
2) What Canon can force EF users into doing prematurely (what Canon is probably going to do)
3) What EF users unreasonably want (EF in perpetuity, new EF lenses, etc.)

...are absolutely 3 different things. I simply contend that Canon will be 'impatient, but kind' to the horses that got them here. I still see the EF exodus taking some time for fear of angering its longtime users.

- A

Yes. I think they also still remember 1987 and do not wish to repeat it.
 
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Michael Clark

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CPS Platinum loaners and repairs get free shipping both ways, but I'm not sure about returns of purchases.

- A

Apparently if a loaner is sent because a repair takes longer than the guarantee they still pay shipping both ways.

They seem to have changed the policy on CPS loans that do not involve a repair guarantee.
 
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Michael Clark

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If an asset is purchased in order to help generate revenue it is an investment. If the asset loses value over time, then you have a depreciation (or in accounting parlance amortization) expense that you deduct from revenue. However the asset is still an investment.

And the beginning of this conversation was about well heeled amateurs who buy big whites as an "investment" and spend far more on taking photographs of exotic birds in exotic locations than they ever recover in revenue selling images. Where, other than for the camera maker's, airline's, and hotel/resort's bottom line, is the revenue?
 
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Michael Clark

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Agree on the current 5D4 being great, particularly for stills.

The question that each person who is looking to buy a new camera has to answer to himself or herself is can it meet my needs in the future? Will I miss out too much on the new RF glass that is here and coming soon or is the existing EF glass more than sufficient? Will I get into video or am I sticking to stills? Also, knowing that the EF line is on the down cycle, am I paying the right price for this camera or should I be getting a larger discount?

I think when most EF lenses go it will be like the EF 100mm f/2. It was released in 1991 and remained on Canon's books for over twenty years. It's never gotten a refresh/update. Based on the encoded serial number of one I have, they were manufactured at least as recently as 2015.

At some point recently it was quietly dropped from the catalog. No big announcement telling everyone it was discontinued. It just disappeared from the catalog because it wasn't selling well enough to make another batch worth doing when quantities ran low.

Canon Price Watch shows that that it hasn't been listed as in stock at the Canon USA direct store for the past 39 weeks. B&H deactivated their listing six weeks ago. Adorama deactivated their listing 47 weeks ago.
 
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Michael Clark

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The issue remains that at some point over the next several years, the economies of scale will take a foothold. If Canon is moving its focus to MILC going forward (seems clear they are) then continuing to produce new model EF lenses becomes self defeating. And continuing to produce large caches of existing models will be the same. Yes they have sold 100M units but the market is altering and they only have so much production capacity to go around. If they are going to slow down and then cease production of DSLRs over the next 5 years (certainly looks like they are with perhaps 1-2 exceptions like a 5D5), then it makes no sense investing in a bunch of new EF glass R&D and production. For what EF glass remains in use (a LOT) you can grab an RF adapter and slap it on your new RF camera.

So far as the M series, again, yes it's the best selling one. Right NOW. Again, any company has to allocate its limited R&D and production resources, not to mention Canon prefers to give customers as easy an upgrade path as possible. Therefore, as RF-S crop bodies come out in the next few years, don't be surprised to see the EFM models wound down as well. Why have two MILC Crop body eco-systems, when one of which has no upgrade capacity to higher level L glass? Why would Canon not prefer to have those M customers buy into new RF-S instead of EFM where they can buy (once Canon starts producing them) compact RF bodies similar in size to current M bodies with cheap RF-S glass and the ability to move UP into even more? Of course, IF Canon cant/wont make an RF-S body as compact as the M line now, different story, but I don't see why they couldn't get very similar sizes even with the RF mount being a bit bigger

The M system has an 18 mm flange distance (compared to 44 mm for EF and EF-S) and a 47 mm throat diameter. The RF mount's flange distance at 20 mm, and a throat diameter of 54mm (same as EF)

Will that 7mm throat difference and 2mm flange distance be enough to keep the EF-M? I don't know, but Seems unlikely. That's why I see eventually Canon phasing out the M. Again, economies of scale. If I'm Canon I would want to try and unify as much production as possible IF that unification can satisfy the entire range of products customers want to buy. Remember the M line was Canon's toying with the compact MILC market to offer a choice between that and the already popular Rebels (particularly the SL line). The new T8 and 90D may well be the last of their APS-C DSLRs too. 2-3 years from now, we will have crop RF bodies for the $500 range coming with kit 18-55mm RF-S glass that could easily replace the Rebel AND M lines

Based on current sales numbers compared to five and ten years ago, it would seem that Canon has excess lens manufacturing capacity. Are you suggesting this is not the case? Limited resources are with regard to new lens development, not to production of existing lens designs.

You assume that Canon is going to make very low priced APS-C RF bodies. Canon has given no indication they plan to do that. It should be fairly clear to anyone who looks at it objectively that Canon sees very little overlap between the target market for the EF-M line and the target market for the RF line. The folks to whom Canon is selling EOS M cameras have no aspirations of ever "upgrading" to RF cameras. (Hint: They are not the kind of folks who frequent Canon Rumors.) They have no lens requirements that aren't being met by the lenses currently available. Why is this so hard to understand?

 
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Michael Clark

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But what's best for EOS M sales (i.e. sticking EF-M) may not be what's best for RF body sales.

EF-M glass doesn't work on RF bodies, and Canon could fix that without eliminating why folks love EOS M:
  • Start putting out inexpensive RF-S (crop image circle RF) lenses
  • Offer a few tiny RF mount bodies with crop sensors (R50, R500 if you will) at Rebel like prices. In effect, Canon would offer tiny EOS M bodies with RF mounts.
  • Ramp down EOS M and EF-M production once this new line of small RF crop bodies and RF-S lenses cover the same bases as EOS M and EF-M lenses do today (that won't take long, there only ~ 10 lenses and a few bodies)
And then it's one mount to rule them all.

It might take a few years, but the future state of one mount that receives all lenses simply makes more sense.

- A

I disagree. I think Canon sees the EF-M market and the RF market as two totally different groups of potential customers with very little overlap. The number of EOS-M buyers who actively use other camera systems (EF, RF, etc.) is a very small number of the total number of EF-M buyers. (Hint: ALL North American and Western Europe buyers of EF-M cameras and lenses are also a very small portion of the total. Asia is where the EF-M system is selling. That's a totally different market.)
 
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Optics Patent

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CPS Platinum loaners and repairs get free shipping both ways, but I'm not sure about returns of purchases.

Repairs get free shipping both ways. Loaners get free shipping out but borrower pays to ship back (per the current CPS site as cut and paste above and confirmed by an email today from <[email protected]>). The past may have been different.

Returns in the eval period to Adorama (and presumably BH) get free shipping both ways.
 
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PureClassA

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Based on current sales numbers compared to five and ten years ago, it would seem that Canon has excess lens manufacturing capacity. Are you suggesting this is not the case? Limited resources are with regard to new lens development, not to production of existing lens designs.

You assume that Canon is going to make very low priced APS-C RF bodies. Canon has given no indication they plan to do that. It should be fairly clear to anyone who looks at it objectively that Canon sees very little overlap between the target market for the EF-M line and the target market for the RF line. The folks to whom Canon is selling EOS M cameras have no aspirations of ever "upgrading" to RF cameras. (Hint: They are not the kind of folks who frequent Canon Rumors.) They have no lens requirements that aren't being met by the lenses currently available. Why is this so hard to understand?
Canon presently has a seamless APS-C to Full Frame mount line now in EF. Canon will build that same sort of system in RF as it gradually replaces EF in the coming years. Just because they haven't announced RF-S yet does not mean it isn't going to happen. It may not be til 2021-2022, but they will over time recreate the same product gamut they now have in EF with RF. Why on Earth wouldn't they? Canon itself has stated several times the RF mount has given them the ability to design and produce lenses that simply are not possible/viable in EF. The upper end of bodies is clearly migrating over to MILC. The lower range APS-C will undoubtedly follow suit in the coming years. Doesn't mean the existing lower end will drop off entirely within two years. But gradually merging everything into a singular mount system that can cover every need from basic entry level to professional just makes too much sense.
 
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Michael Clark

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Canon presently has a seamless APS-C to Full Frame mount line now in EF. Canon will build that same sort of system in RF as it gradually replaces EF in the coming years. Just because they haven't announced RF-S yet does not mean it isn't going to happen. It may not be til 2021-2022, but they will over time recreate the same product gamut they now have in EF with RF. Why on Earth wouldn't they? Canon itself has stated several times the RF mount has given them the ability to design and produce lenses that simply are not possible/viable in EF. The upper end of bodies is clearly migrating over to MILC.

EF-M is not aimed at "upper end' anything. It's aimed at non-professional consumers. It's not aimed at 'Canon Rumors' readers. It's not aimed at folks who use more than one camera. It's aimed at people who want a single, lightweight, and compact camera that can do things their phone can't.

Those lens design advantages that are the result of shorter registration distances than EF are also present in EF-M. All of them. The wider throat diameter is not an advantage for an APS-C sized sensor in the way it is an advantage for a FF sensor. On the other hand, the wider throat diameter does limit how small an APS-C body can be. But that's pretty much moot for EF-M anyway, where very wide apertures and uncorrected lens performance are not prioritized over smaller size and lower weight.

The lower range APS-C will undoubtedly follow suit in the coming years. Doesn't mean the existing lower end will drop off entirely within two years. But gradually merging everything into a singular mount system that can cover every need from basic entry level to professional just makes too much sense.

It may in some markets. It may not in others. Canon may change their current approach that the market for EF-M and the market for RF have very little overlap. But as long as EF-M is selling as well as it is, particularly in Asia and the Pacific Rim, it isn't going anywhere.

If there is any company that embodies the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality, it is Canon!
 
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Rule556

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Canon presently has a seamless APS-C to Full Frame mount line now in EF. Canon will build that same sort of system in RF as it gradually replaces EF in the coming years. Just because they haven't announced RF-S yet does not mean it isn't going to happen. It may not be til 2021-2022, but they will over time recreate the same product gamut they now have in EF with RF. Why on Earth wouldn't they? Canon itself has stated several times the RF mount has given them the ability to design and produce lenses that simply are not possible/viable in EF. The upper end of bodies is clearly migrating over to MILC. The lower range APS-C will undoubtedly follow suit in the coming years. Doesn't mean the existing lower end will drop off entirely within two years. But gradually merging everything into a singular mount system that can cover every need from basic entry level to professional just makes too much sense.

I'm wondering if Canon really sees the need for inexpensive crop sensor cameras outside of the M line. If they can standardize on full frame sensors (except for perhaps specialized birding or sports cameras who's users would want pro lenses anyway), that seems like the way to go. There would be no reason to start an RF-S line. The M line becomes your "budget" line, and then the RF line would have various price ranges all using the full frame RF mount.

Ultimately, this is all tea-leaf reading I know.
 
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Actually, we are still trying to help you understand what dynamic range is.

Dynamic Range is well defined, PTP and DxO use very specific definitions with images normalised to a certain print size. Their definitions make the measured DR values usable only for comparison within respective websites, that was my point.
Also they don't actually print the images - PTP operates with a circle of confusion input parameter that corresponds (as far as I understand) a certain print size viewed at a certain distance.
In practice, as above, paper prints can't accommodate more than 7 stops of DR, and before printing, there will be digital downsamling which will involve additional antialiasing processing (and hence some additional information loss). This obviously isn't taken into account by PTP and DxO, as far as I can see. So the resulting DR numbers are 'ideal' and not even applicable to physical prints of the given sizes.

I'm sure you would be surprised to learn that it's actually15 stops of DR you are talking about.
To be precise, log2((2¹⁴-1.5)/0.5) stops of DR.
Where does it come from? In the raw files, the signal is linear and discrete, you can't get more than 2^14. If your formula implies the noise level less than 1 bit, I doubt it.

Is it even a thing - downsampling in 14 bits?

Why wouldn't it be a thing? It happens say in camera when you set it to raw but not to the highest resolution. Don't be confused with CPUs who process data in blocks of 8, 16, 32, 64 bits.

The question is: if the DR at 45Mpix or 60Mpix resolution is important to you, how are you going to get it from a 30Mpix sensor?
Not sure if I understood your question. I feel it implies the DR value is somehow derived from resolution but that's not the case, obviously.

If you convert it on a scanner with the resolution enough to resolve single silver grains (which are submicronic in size, so you will need a 100k+ DPI scanner), you will get a binary image. You can convert it into 8, 14, 16, 24, 32, 48, 64, or whatever number of bits per pixel you want, but it will be binary.

The silver crystals, first of all, are all different in shapes, sizes, and they overlap a lot. In fact there's several layers of them within the emulsion layer. They're not laid out nicely in a regular 2D grid. Your scanner will need to keep the information about the shape and 3D position of each crystal, and it's much more than 1 bit, there's no such a bizarre scanner that can capture all that information.
You can scan to a normal 2D matrix with very high resolution, but each point will have more than two levels of brightness due to the crystals overlapping.

Such digital 1-bit-per-pixel sensors are already proposed.
They're not 1 bit per resulting image pixel. They don't even call the receptors 'pixels', they call them 'jots'. https://www.gigajot.tech/
If this idea works, it'll probably be a very high DR sensor, but the resulting image will have the normal N-bit pixels:
Photon bits fields are binned over temporal and spatial dimensions during the image processing to create image pixels.

Anyway I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to prove with these 1-bit-jots and 1-bit-crystals. That the 14-bit raw image can have more than 14 stops of DR? No it can't.
You can convert it to 16 bit, then carefully downsample, reduce noise and thus get some additional DR, but that won't be the original image, that'll be a different, smaller image. Halide crystals and jots don't prove anything here, they're simply irrelevant.
 
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unfocused

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I 100% agree with everything above.

Where we've disagreed on this thread is the slope of that downward EF usage, as you pointed out.

1) What Canon wants for maximum profit (pull out the rug ASAP, shut down EF aggressively)
2) What Canon can force EF users into doing prematurely (what Canon is probably going to do)
3) What EF users unreasonably want (EF in perpetuity, new EF lenses, etc.)

...are absolutely 3 different things. I simply contend that Canon will be 'impatient, but kind' to the horses that got them here. I still see the EF exodus taking some time for fear of angering its longtime users.

- A
Except, I think there is a great unknown here, which is to what extent it is possible to completely replace all the functionality of DSLRs with Mirrorless. I know I am repeating myself, but after six months of regular, heavy use of the R, I am skeptical about the technological hurdles that need to be overcome for Mirrorless to truly replace DSLRs in all functional aspects.

Mirrorless has intrinsic advantages that are not shared by mirrored bodies. But, mirrored bodies also have some intrinsic advantages. I think the mistake that may be being made here is that people are overly optimistic about the pace of mirrorless advances and overly skeptical about the pace of DSLR advances. I am at least willing to entertain the possibility that mirrorless cameras will never be as good as mirrored bodies for certain uses, particularly sports and action. I also feel that mirrorless already outperform mirrored bodies in other areas, such as portraiture.

So, while Canon might want to move to a single format to maximize profits, there are reasons why they may not be able to actually do that for quite some time, or perhaps ever.
 
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Since you are already a mirrorless user, how did you find the switch from OVF to EVF? I did look at the R but only in a store, so I have no real world experience.

I realize you didn't ask me, but I use both frequently. The big plus of EVF is getting a more realistic view of your exposure and also being able to see when shooting in low light. For theater it has been great as it lets me see scenes I might not otherwise be able to see. For sports, the lag and blackout are relatively bothersome, but usable. I don't know that it will ever be truly solved because of the physics of having to send a signal from the sensor to the EVF, but it could be faster for sure.
 
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