Canon executives say a lot more coming in 2019

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
276
123
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
Where did I say that I recovered 3.5 stops?
Ok sorry I probably misunderstood you. You said that 3.5 stop difference between Canon 7D and Panasonic S1 isn't that big. I assumed you'd try and show a 3.5 stop recovery in 7D.
But again you shadow recovery sample above shows 2.5 stop recovery, and it's hard to check on the quality of the resulting image because it's too small. So it doesn't prove anything. You recovered 2.5 stops from shadows with dark but clearly visible details, and from this post https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?threads/canon-executives-say-a-lot-more-coming-in-2019.36985/page-4#post-771313 we see a recovery from almost totally black shadows with no visible detail.

So I don't see, to be honest, how your example shows anything. The fact that you recovered 2.5 stops of shadowson an image from 7D doesn't tell us if the difference between 7D and S1 is insignificant. It doesn't even tell us if it's significant. It only shows you can recover 2.5 stops and it looks ok when downsized.

I posted that image to make a point to the DRones on this board who miss no opportunity to say that the 5D4 and R sensors are old tech that are so far behind Sony on DR that we're going to switch brands any day now. I replied to a posting of a Panasonic S1 shadow recovery example by someone who kept talking about how great it was to have a "new competitive sensor" implying that the 5D4 sensor is old and uncompetitive.
Ok, but again you example that uses 7D doesn't tell us anything about 5DIV vs S1 comparison.

And if you really want to quibble about it, shoot DP RAWs and process them to add roughly 1ev on the highlight side putting those cameras on par with anything else out there, literally and to the numerical point score.
I use DPRSplit, it helps a bit but happens to be unreliable - the merged files sometimes have a very strong green and unfixable cast in the brightest highlights - so sometimes it helps to recover highlights, but I can't rely on it and I'm afraid of overexposing by 1 stop deliberately. I've used it or tried to use it in probably 1/10 of my recent keeper images, btw that probably shows what I'd get if my camera had 1 stop more of DR. 10% easier processing and more keepers. That's actually a lot.
 

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
276
123
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
Let me rephrase:
I would not presume the use of a 16-bit ADC means the sensor has either higher well capacity or lower noise than some earlier sensor with a 14-bit ADC.
That's absolutely right. However Sony rumours say the DR will be improved. Tbh I didn't even know about this sensor before reading this thread, now will be watching when/if Sony actually releases A7RIV.
 

transpo1

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 12, 2011
711
65
because there's no real rush or panic to get them out the door immediately and next Q1 has a ton of shows that Canon wants to showcase at, not to mention it's Photokina first of the annual shows year, a Canon Expo year AND an Olympic year. what's going on after CP+ this year? a whole lot of nothing.

I think it's time you face the cold hard truth. what you, a forum warrior thinks the market should do or produce and what Canon feels the market needs and what will sell, are two different things. Admit the fact that you agree to disagree with Canon's feel of the market, and move on. Find something else to keep you interested and engaged. Obviously, Canon isn't and hasn't for YEARS kept you interested an engaged outside of complaining about video features, and you are still here. Meanwhile there's plenty of other cameras out there and companies that seem to be a better fit. yet you are still here.

it's really strange.

Professionally, if i had a tool that didn't do the job i needed to do, i would sell it and get the tool that did. no questions asked. I wouldn't wait and endlessly complain about it for 2 or 3 years.

cameras are nothing but tools not a religious experience.
And I use those other cameras

But yet, you’re still here are this forum— why? I hardly think my engaging in discussion qualifies as a religious experience but defense of Canon for the opposite arguments seems to be one for many on this forum.

I suppose you’ll just have to get on my side and push for those same features in order to get me to shut up :)

Otherwise, it’s just going to keep on keeping on ;)
 

transpo1

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 12, 2011
711
65
You're shooting a Netflix program? Cool! What's the name going to be? I'll be sure to watch it when it comes out.
Nope, I’m not— simply demonstrating that 4K is relevant and important to professionals in today’s age. Be sure to share your work with us, would love to see it.
 
Reactions: Mark D5 TEAM II

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
2,853
266
That's absolutely right. However Sony rumours say the DR will be improved. Tbh I didn't even know about this sensor before reading this thread, now will be watching when/if Sony actually releases A7RIV.
The only place I’ve seen it mentioned is here:

https://www.s ony alpha rumors.com/the-full-new-generation-sony-8k-sensor-and-codec-specs/

If those figures are correct, one expects about 15 stops DR from IMX551, at the sensor level. Once the signal is routed through the camera system and is written out as a file, it’s anyone’s guess how much is retained. I wouldn’t be surprised to see 13-14 in an SLR.
 
Reactions: Quarkcharmed

bhf3737

---
Sep 9, 2015
361
209
Calgary, Canada
www.flickr.com
And, since my point was that quality 4K is relevant and necessary in today's world, congratulations on providing further research to prove that. Please take note, however, that although anyone can Google format specifications, it actually takes a filmmaker's perspective and a brain to analyze them. And I didn't see that anywhere in your post.
Exactly my point. You even did not bother to Google and find the truth about your stance, and keep chewing the same cud. You may call it filmmaker perspective but many see it as pure feeble-mindedness.
 

QuisUtDeus

EOS T7i
Feb 20, 2019
97
69
Nope, I’m not— simply demonstrating that 4K is relevant and important to professionals in today’s age. Be sure to share your work with us, would love to see it.
Nope. I don't shoot video, and I'm not claiming any spec requirements based on third parties that don't apply to me. Nice try at deflection, though.
 
Reactions: Mark D5 TEAM II

unfocused

EOS 5D SR
It's always amazing the rabbit holes that these threads go down. Start with a post about Canon executives saying they have a lot in the pipeline for the next year, and nine pages later we are debating Netflix minimum standards for original content.

Okay, I'll play. Those Netflix standards sound a lot like most minimum requirements. They are written to pare down submissions. It's what any enterprise does when the supply is so much greater than the demand. If you have 10,000 would-be filmmakers every day wanting to submit their pride and joy, you set a bunch of standards that will weed out 9,990 of them, so your staff only has to deal with 10 a day. In the meantime, you've got a handful of other people actively looking for examples of exceptional talent. If they discover some future Orson Welles, Wes Anderson or Spike Lee who shot a real work of genius on an iPhone, they are gonna buy it no matter what their specs say.

...simply demonstrating that 4K is relevant and important to professionals in today’s age...
No one is arguing this point. They are just arguing its relevancy to this forum and this thread.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,151
431
Ok sorry I probably misunderstood you. You said that 3.5 stop difference between Canon 7D and Panasonic S1 isn't that big. I assumed you'd try and show a 3.5 stop recovery in 7D.
Fair enough.

But again you shadow recovery sample above shows 2.5 stop recovery, and it's hard to check on the quality of the resulting image because it's too small. So it doesn't prove anything.
:LOL:

The DRones on this board have posted nothing of their own, and one sample by someone else. And I'm not talking about just this thread, I'm talking about this entire topic!

I've seen this pattern of rhetoric, rationalization, and complete lack of any images over and over again on different forums for years now. DR is supposed to be this huge issue and the #1 thing we should judge IQ by now. Yet nobody who DRones about DR can actually show what it has meant to their photography. I can derail the debate and put the DRones on defense by posting a shadow push from a 10 year old crop 7D for crying out loud.

I'm convinced that most of the people who DRone about DR have never done HDR work and aren't even pushing the limits of JPEG.

You recovered 2.5 stops from shadows with dark but clearly visible details, and from this post...we see a recovery from almost totally black shadows with no visible detail.
I'm sorry, but it's hard to check on the quality of the resulting image because it's too small. So it doesn't prove anything. :rolleyes:

So I don't see, to be honest, how your example shows anything.
Of course you don't. I could make shadow pushed 36" prints from a 5D4 and a D850 and you would claim they didn't show anything. The narrative must stand. Canon sensor old. Leaving for Sony if next camera doesn't deliver a DxO score!

I use DPRSplit, it helps a bit but happens to be unreliable - the merged files sometimes have a very strong green and unfixable cast in the brightest highlights -
That's a fair complaint. But I only brought the option up for people who feel an OCD need to be "equal" on some arbitrary score. Again, that 1 point score difference at a test site equals a tick or two on a NR slider in the real world.
 
Reactions: Michael Clark

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,151
431
The only place I’ve seen it mentioned is here:

https://www.s ony alpha rumors.com/the-full-new-generation-sony-8k-sensor-and-codec-specs/

If those figures are correct, one expects about 15 stops DR from IMX551, at the sensor level. Once the signal is routed through the camera system and is written out as a file, it’s anyone’s guess how much is retained. I wouldn’t be surprised to see 13-14 in an SLR.
To expand on this: modern sensor pixels are already incredibly efficient photon counters. So I wouldn't expect any large gains in DR from any manufacturer until someone starts to employ multi-exposure techniques in sensor.

Canon would appear to be in a prime position to exploit this from two different angles if they wanted. One is to use the DPAF architecture to extend highlight range. The other would be to introduce their 70+ MP sensor with a mode whereby rows of pixels are exposed at different ISOs (Magic Lantern lets you do this on older Canon sensors). At 70mp you could extend your DR while still retaining all the detail of a true 35mp image. A lot of people might like that mode since 35mp covers most subject/print size combinations.

But...Canon doesn't tend to experiment with "tricks" like this, leaving it to Magic Lantern.
 

bhf3737

---
Sep 9, 2015
361
209
Calgary, Canada
www.flickr.com
[junk]
Also, here's a definition for you because some people obviously aren't intelligent enough to understand the concept: "Professional: A person engaged in a specified activity, especially a sport or branch of the performing arts, as a main paid occupation rather than as a pastime."
[more junk]
You should read first what is intelligence and then write about it:
". . . the capacity to reorganize one’s behavior patterns so as to act more effectively and more appropriately in novel situations . . . the ability to learn . . . the extent to which a person is educable. . . the ability to carry on abstract thinking . . . the effective use of concepts and symbols in dealing with a problem to be solved . . . ” - W. Freeman
And based on your actions and reactions, thread of reasoning and use of concepts, for sure you suffer from the lack of all those aspects. Even growing up wouldn't be of much help.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: Del Paso

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
276
123
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
The DRones on this board have posted nothing of their own, and one sample by someone else. And I'm not talking about just this thread, I'm talking about this entire topic!
That's not exactly true, I recall people posting examples. This very conversation started off this example from Panasonic: https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?threads/canon-executives-say-a-lot-more-coming-in-2019.36985/page-4#post-771313
There's also a number of comparisons you can google, just a random one I've just found:
- it's not only about DR but also about banding in 5DIV which btw becomes an issue for me in night/astrophotography.

I've seen this pattern of rhetoric, rationalization, and complete lack of any images over and over again on different forums for years now.
I think you're under a confirmation bias, just ignoring information/reviews that don't fit your views.

DR is supposed to be this huge issue and the #1 thing we should judge IQ by now. Yet nobody who DRones about DR can actually show what it has meant to their photography. I can derail the debate and put the DRones on defense by posting a shadow push from a 10 year old crop 7D for crying out loud.
Again pushing shadows by 2.5 stops from 10-year-old 7D and posting a low-res comparison doesn't prove anything in terms of say 5DIV vs A7RIII comparison. If you've posted it before on other forums, I wouldn't be surprised if you've already heard that example was irrelevant.

I'm convinced that most of the people who DRone about DR have never done HDR work and aren't even pushing the limits of JPEG.
That's another fallacy, to think your opponents are incompetent by definition.

I'm sorry, but it's hard to check on the quality of the resulting image because it's too small. So it doesn't prove anything.:rolleyes:
It proves the shadows were pushed by about 2.5 stops, that was the only goal.

Of course you don't. I could make shadow pushed 36" prints from a 5D4 and a D850 and you would claim they didn't show anything. The narrative must stand. Canon sensor old. Leaving for Sony if next camera doesn't deliver a DxO score!


I'm not sure who you're referring to exactly, last few messages you were exchanging arguments with me. I don't care about DXO score much. I do care about overall reviews though and most importantly about the tech specs on the prospective new camera.

Would I choose Sony or Nikon with better sensors now had I been making a choice from the scratch not having any gear? - I don't know, probably yes.
Do I want to switch right now? - no, 5DIV isn't that bad and Sony/Nikon don't have that much of advantage. Also the switch would be very expensive.
Will I switch in the future? - I have no idea, but I'll try to stick with Canon simply because of the cost of switching. But if they don't deliver, I might think of switching to a next-gen Sony and initially using EF adaptors. But there's neither next-gen Canon nor next-gen Sony yet, so it's too early to even think about it.
 

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
276
123
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
The only place I’ve seen it mentioned is here:

https://www.s ony alpha rumors.com/the-full-new-generation-sony-8k-sensor-and-codec-specs/

If those figures are correct, one expects about 15 stops DR from IMX551, at the sensor level. Once the signal is routed through the camera system and is written out as a file, it’s anyone’s guess how much is retained. I wouldn’t be surprised to see 13-14 in an SLR.
Even a 14-stop DR will be amazing, it'd be on par with the most expensive medium-format ones. And if they put it into a future A7RIV body, it should be within a reasonable price range, not $10-20k+. On the other hand, DR is very important factor but not the only factor, so let's see the specs and reviews when it actually comes out.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,151
431
That's not exactly true, I recall people posting examples. This very conversation started off this example from Panasonic:
Which he didn't take. Hence the "...one sample by someone else..." part of my statement.

- it's not only about DR but also about banding in 5DIV which btw becomes an issue for me in night/astrophotography.
It's not an issue for me with older sensor architectures, so that makes me wonder what your settings and processing steps are. Also: DR differences pretty much disappear at high ISOs. I wouldn't expect additional shadow latitude with any sensor at night/astro ISOs.

There's also a number of comparisons you can google, just a random one I've just found:
And his video shows tiny differences in noise visible while pixel peeping. Something that would disappear with a bit of NR, even in a large print.

If only someone had described that exact difference here in this thread :LOL:

I think you're under a confirmation bias, just ignoring information/reviews that don't fit your views.
Ignore it? I positively love the review link you posted. Thanks for finding it for me.

If you've posted it before on other forums, I wouldn't be surprised if you've already heard that example was irrelevant.
It's painfully relevant because if the difference is small there, it's certainly not going to be large vs. a 5D4.

That's another fallacy, to think your opponents are incompetent by definition.
It's not a fallacy because it's not offered in defense of anything I've said. It was merely an observation.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,151
431
Even a 14-stop DR will be amazing, it'd be on par with the most expensive medium-format ones.
Most people think in terms of the DxO scale where the D850 and third generation A7 bodies are around 14.6-14.8ev. I don't think MF has passed those numbers but I haven't looked up the latest sensors from Phase One.
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
2,853
266
Most people think in terms of the DxO scale where the D850 and third generation A7 bodies are around 14.6-14.8ev. I don't think MF has passed those numbers but I haven't looked up the latest sensors from Phase One.
Those >14ev figures are computed from a model which mathematically downsamples (i.e., increased DR via noise reduction). If the phase one IQ4 150MP was given that treatment, it would almost certainly outperform the 40ish MP cameras.
 
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Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
276
123
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
Which he didn't take. Hence the "...one sample by someone else..." part of my statement.

It's not an issue for me with older sensor architectures, so that makes me wonder what your settings and processing steps are. Also: DR differences pretty much disappear at high ISOs. I wouldn't expect additional shadow latitude with any sensor at night/astro ISOs.
The banding is a known issue for 5DIV and they say for the R too. It shows as green stripes across the frame. It doesn't show in every camera. Some cameras are ok, mine isn't that lucky. I have it at ISO 100-800 at relatively long exposures (>1-2 sec). At ISO 100 it's only in deep shadows and not really disturbing, but ISO 800 suffers the most. And in my camera, banding disappears at ISO 1600!

And his video shows tiny differences in noise visible while pixel peeping. Something that would disappear with a bit of NR, even in a large print.
NR is always a loss of detail. More noise means loss of detail. Also more noise means less freedom for processing. Also Sony has 42mp vs 30mp in Canon and it's still clearer, so overall the image from A7RIII is more usable. It's not a huge difference but enough to save a certain percentage of landscape shots.

It's painfully relevant because if the difference is small there, it's certainly not going to be large vs. a 5D4.
Nope. Pictures from 7D tell us nothing about 5DIV vs A7RIII. Different sensor and different cameras. As I showed above, you only pushed shadows by 2.55 stops on 7D, and then you extrapolate it to 5DIV saying 'it certainly not going to be large vs a 5D4' - this certainty needs a proof and images from 7D don't prove anything.

Again in the video above there was the best Canon sensor, if we take another sensor from 6DII and RP, the difference is much more drastic (again another random comparison video with samples):

That's why I'm going to be precautious with the next Canon camera, shall it be 5DIV or 5DS cuccessor. Sony was steadily improving in DR, Nikon reached a certain peak and at least didn't degrade, but literally all Canon cameras after 5DIV were worse in terms of DR - that is in the given segment around 5DIV and 6DII.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
23,836
1,007
...literally all Canon cameras after 5DIV were worse in terms of DR - that is in the given segment around 5DIV and 6DII.
Literally all? The EOS R is worse in terms of DR? I doubt that. Oh, I know you’ll trot out DxO’s measurements, but if you’re going to claim 13.5 is worse than 13.6, you need to provide the error associated with those values (e.g., 13.5 ± 0.3) and the number of sensors tested. The latter is particularly important given your statement above about low ISO banding affecting only some cameras (my EOS R certainly doesn’t have banding with long exposures at low ISO). Of course, DxO doesn’t provide the error values associated with their measurements, which is bad science (despite the fact that their tagline was ‘image science’), and I’m fairly certain that they test only one camera of each model (if they tested several copies, as lensrentals does, I’m sure they would highlight that fact). Unless you have data other than those from DxO, you really cannot conclude that the EOS R is any different from the 5DIV in terms of DR (nor would one expect it to be, given that it is essentially the same sensor).