Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]

Canon Rumors Guy

EOS 1D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
7,754
387
Canada
www.canonrumors.com
HTML:
Over the last couple of months we have received a lot communication about a full frame Canon mirrorless camera. This sort of talk has come and gone every since Sony entered the segment with the a7 series of cameras.</p>
<p>Here’s a breakdown of what we’ve been told, please mind the <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/the-canon-rumors-rating-system-explained/">[CR1] rating</a>. Some of these talking points could be considered plausible.</p>
<ul>
<li>The goal is to announce a full frame mirrorless camera for Photokina 2018 which takes place in September of that year.</li>
<li>EF mount will be native</li>
<li>New exclusive image sensor for the camera.</li>
<li>New sensor technology required for the EF mount in a mirrorless application</li>
<li>There will be no new “dedicated” lenses, but mirrorless will be “considered in all future EF lens design”</li>
<li>4K video is considered a necessary feature in all full frame cameras going forward</li>
<li>One full frame mirrorless camera body to start</li>
<li>There is testing at Canon of a more hybrid approach between DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras. What that looks like we don’t know.</li>
</ul>
<p>We’ve received other information beyond what’s posted here, but most of it didn’t quite fit.</p>
<p>Some of this information can be backed up with some patents over the last 12-24 months and we have no doubt a full frame mirrorless camera from Canon is coming. However, we’ve always said EF lenses would have to work on the camera “natively” and that there won’t be another line of lenses developed for this application.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<p><em>image credit // mockup by Canon Rumors // Images used from <a href="http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/lenses/35mm-f14-ii.htm">KenRockwell.com</a> and <a href="https://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-Q/LEICA-Q">Leica</a></em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
"New sensor technology required for the EF mount in a mirrorless application"

that wouldn't be required not including DPAF which already exists. unless they are making DPAF into QPAF for horizontal / vertical shooting.

this would only be required if you were going shorter than the EF mount.

"There is testing at Canon of a more hybrid approach between DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras. What that looks like we don’t know."

I'd have to assume the hybrid OVF / EVF approach?
 

Sharlin

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 26, 2015
1,066
579
Turku, Finland
rrcphoto said:
"New sensor technology required for the EF mount in a mirrorless application"

that wouldn't be required not including DPAF which already exists. unless they are making DPAF into QPAF for horizontal / vertical shooting.
Yeah, I'm guessing it's AF related. Canon may not be comfortable equipping their FF mirrorless with "just" a current-generation DPAF or an evolutionary upgrade thereof.
 

tr573

EOS RP
Dec 2, 2015
218
0
rrcphoto said:
this would only be required if you were going shorter than the EF mount.
That's what I immediately thought too. Some sort of lens in the sensor stack to reduce the FFD?
 

unfocused

EOS 1D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
5,049
1,434
66
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
Canon Rumors said:
Over the last couple of months we have received a lot communication about a full frame Canon mirrorless camera....Here’s a breakdown of what we’ve been told...
Interesting. Some semi-random thoughts:

Canon Rumors said:
  • The goal is to announce a full frame mirrorless camera for Photokina 2018...I wonder if this means the 7DIII will be announced earlier in 2018
  • EF mount will be native. No surprise there.
  • New exclusive image sensor for the camera.Exclusive at the time of release, or exclusive, as in it won't be used by other bodies? Given that this would arrive mid-life cycle for the 1D 5D and 6D and the 5Ds is by design an exclusive sensor, this could mean nothing, or it could mean something.
  • New sensor technology required for the EF mount in a mirrorless application. Don't understand why it would require a new sensor technology.
  • There will be no new “dedicated” lenses, but mirrorless will be “considered in all future EF lens design” No surprise here.
  • 4K video is considered a necessary feature in all full frame cameras going forward.or here.
  • One full frame mirrorless camera body to start or here.
  • There is testing at Canon of a more hybrid approach between DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras. What that looks like we don’t know. or here.
 

KeithBreazeal

EOS 6D MK II
Jan 16, 2014
1,261
47
www.kbvp.com
Hoping for...
No mechanical parts in the shutter design.(like Sony)
Detachable Hi-Res EVF
CFast + SD
Continuous raw buffering at 15 fps
High capacity battery
 

Bernard

EOS 80D
Mar 18, 2015
138
0
unfocused said:
  • New sensor technology required for the EF mount in a mirrorless application. Don't understand why it would require a new sensor technology.
Maybe they are working on a faster sensor readout. Most mirrorless cameras are slow to update the display, which makes them useless for action.
They could also be working on a better way to clear the sensor. The current options are closing the shutter, clearing the sensor, and opening the shutter for the shot; or EFC which limits DR and creates other artifacts. Neither solution is optimal.
 

Jopa

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 11, 2015
1,056
0
Not bad. Don't really care if it's mirrorless or not as long as it takes all my ef lenses and no worse than the pdaf-based Canons.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,559
777
It takes at least two years for a design to be executed once the features have been frozen. Unless Canon has that new sensor developed to the point where they know it can be built, and will work, it will likely be 3 or more years away.

I'd certainly welcome the demise of the mirror, or even their hybrid approach as outlined in several patents. The hybrid mode gives the photographer choice of OVF in mirror mode, or EVF in mirrorless mode.

Getting high AF and tracking performance along with a decent view finder have been the big challenges. The cost to develop such a camera may result in a higher price.

Canon has pretty obviously been working on the issues, their recent patent to overcome problems with light loss near edges and corners with DPAF technology shows that.
 

tmroper

EOS 80D
Sep 22, 2016
148
52
Mt Spokane Photography said:
Getting high AF and tracking performance along with a decent view finder have been the big challenges. The cost to develop such a camera may result in a higher price.
Canon's Cinema cameras have excellent EVFs, along with high AF and tracking performance. So they already have all the technology needed here. Like Sony (and Panasonic), they've been making cameras with EVFs for decades, and just need to commit to cramming it all into a tiny, mirrorless body.
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
Bernard said:
unfocused said:
  • New sensor technology required for the EF mount in a mirrorless application. Don't understand why it would require a new sensor technology.
Maybe they are working on a faster sensor readout. Most mirrorless cameras are slow to update the display, which makes them useless for action.
They could also be working on a better way to clear the sensor. The current options are closing the shutter, clearing the sensor, and opening the shutter for the shot; or EFC which limits DR and creates other artifacts. Neither solution is optimal.
Well, that's a good point.

Canon already has a global shutter sensor, maybe they are thinking of making that prime time.
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
Canon Rumors said:
Over the last couple of months we have received a lot communication about a full frame Canon mirrorless camera. This sort of talk has come and gone every since Sony entered the segment with the a7 series of cameras.</p>
<p>Here’s a breakdown of what we’ve been told, please mind the <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/the-canon-rumors-rating-system-explained/">[CR1] rating</a>. Some of these talking points could be considered plausible.</p>
<ul>
<li>The goal is to announce a full frame mirrorless camera for Photokina 2018 which takes place in September of that year.</li>
<li>EF mount will be native</li>
<li>New exclusive image sensor for the camera.</li>
<li>New sensor technology required for the EF mount in a mirrorless application</li>
<li>There will be no new “dedicated” lenses, but mirrorless will be “considered in all future EF lens design”</li>
<li>4K video is considered a necessary feature in all full frame cameras going forward</li>
<li>One full frame mirrorless camera body to start</li>
<li>There is testing at Canon of a more hybrid approach between DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras. What that looks like we don’t know.</li>
</ul>
<p>We’ve received other information beyond what’s posted here, but most of it didn’t quite fit.</p>
<p>Some of this information can be backed up with some patents over the last 12-24 months and we have no doubt a full frame mirrorless camera from Canon is coming. However, we’ve always said EF lenses would have to work on the camera “natively” and that there won’t be another line of lenses developed for this application.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<p><em>image credit // mockup by Canon Rumors // Images used from <a href="http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/lenses/35mm-f14-ii.htm">KenRockwell.com</a> and <a href="https://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-Q/LEICA-Q">Leica</a></em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
actually the more I think about this. this sounds like the 120MP 5Ds/R replacement.

there's no reason that cannot and should not be mirrorless and the timing fits.
 

archiea

EOS 80D
Jan 17, 2013
161
9
Interesting news.

The faster reading sensor thingie makes sense. It definitely needed having used the Eos-M series cameras. It has epileptic seizure inducing a blackouts!

Here's another theory: taking a page from Leica's sensor, they are the only full frame camera with a short flange distance made possible with their sensor design incorporating micro lenses to accommodate the angle at which the light rays hits the sensor. It wasn't as much of an issue in film but digital sensors have that problems.

some details here:
http://ilovehatephoto.com/2015/02/23/3-detailed-reasons-not-to-switch-to-sony-full-frame-mirrorless-system/
http://briansmith.com/flange-focal-distance-guide/

This is why sony lenses are larger than their DSLR equivalent while the body is smaller. Sony just moved the flange distance to most lenses.

I suspect Canon is developing such a system since it would be the only way for canon to fit EF lenses on a mirrorless body. I would guess the canon mirrorless body would probably be "thicker" than say the sony mirrorless to help alleviate this.

In fact, I wouldn't be opposed to the thicker design since there still is no mirror, it should help with cooling & weather sealing, it would still be lighter still without the mirror. Perhaps they could shave a few millimeters from the film plane to the rear LCD.

I would say that was the main obstacle for Canon: to create a mirrorless that can use the ef lens system natively.
 

justawriter

EOS 80D
Sep 17, 2012
141
48
Let the mirrorless fanboy fapping begin

Going to be a sticky couple of years 8)

(don't get me wrong, if the features/price ratio is favorable, I could very well be a buyer. But lack of a mirror alone won't be a deciding factor.)
 

Chaitanya

EOS 6D MK II
Jun 27, 2013
1,129
211
33
Pune
Canon Rumors said:
<li>4K video is considered a necessary feature in all full frame cameras going forward</li>

What about better codecs? what about implementing of faster storage interface? what about redundant storage implementation?