Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,617
2,097
douglaurent said:
Canon losing customers to Sony or Panasonic, and also losing reputation for their slow path innovation is a fact you can read, hear and see today. It doesn't need any apocalyptic predictions for that - and as Canon will catch up at some point, this problem might not exist anymore in the years 2020/2021/2022 to eternity.

Just right now Canon's tactics are a lose-lose situation for them and their customers.
While it's technically true that Canon is losing customers to Sony or Panasonic, it's also true that Sony and Panasonic are losing customers to Canon. Given that Canon has been gaining ILC market share while Sony has lost it, your implication that Canon is losing net customers as 'fact' is at odds with reality. But we've already established that you prefer to believe your opinion over documented fact...I believe you earlier recommended that someone seek medical attention...a psychiatrist is the appropriate medical professional to address the problems of those who cannot accept reality.


douglaurent said:
Apparently you can't seem to accept the objective reality that Canon is the most popular global brand for dSLRs. How sad.
In what way is the popularity of Canon relevant regarding the proven facts that their top products are behind in at least 20 important features? Is this a forum about technical features, or the forum of the Wall Street Journal or brand values?
It is relevant because in spite of your contention that Canon is 'behind in at least 20 features' that you personally find important, Canon's popularity and nearly 50% and growing ILC market share indicate that the majority of consumers don't find those 20 features particularly important, or don't think that Canon is behind in the areas that matter to them.

Obviously, you're welcome to have and share your opinion. Just don't go thinking that your opinion is universally shared…the actual facts clearly show that your opinion is irrelevant in the context of the ILC market.


douglaurent said:
Any average customer - and those millions of people who bought cheap DSLRs - appreciates what an EVF can do if you show it to them (a viewfinder that shows the right exposure and focus helps, lets you see video and review shots etc etc). The reason why most of these people DON'T buy any new DSLR's or add lenses is, that the workflow completely sucks, and they are not supported in improving their skills.
So now you're speaking for millions of customers, and claiming to have knowledge of what drives their purchasing decisions? Talk about delusional… Millions of people don't buy new cameras and lenses because 'the workflow completely sucks'? Completely asinine. It's far more likely that in most cases, the camera and lens(es) they have are meeting their needs perfectly well.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,617
2,097
transpo1 said:
Market share is only an argument in so far as a company has it- it's the "might makes right" argument. What we are anticipating is a time when others start to catch up with Canon market share. Sony has a LONG way to go from a photography perspective but they are outputting some impressive technology and lenses. What we are saying is that Canon has to be a bit more competitive in features in order to hold onto that market share in the long term.
Is this the same 'we' that are anticipating purple unicorns to fly by, gold dubloons to rain down from the sky, and world peace? ::)

There have been countless claims on the Internet like yours...Canon has to be more competitive in _____________ (fill in the blank with your favorite feature) or else they will _____________ (fill in the blank with your favorite dire fate).

Several years ago, Sony's implementation of on-sensor ADC enabled them to increase their dynamic range relative to Canon's sensors. Lots of people on this forum stated with absolute certainty that photographers would defect to Sony and Nikon (who began using Sony's sensors) in droves, and Canon would be doomed. But what really happened? First Nikon and then Sony lost marketshare to Canon, such that Canon now holds nearly 50% of the ILC market.

So, you go right on anticipating… Have fun riding the unicorn, and don't spend all the gold in one place. ;)
 

tcmatthews

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 6, 2013
411
0
41
Texas
rrcphoto said:
canonographer said:
I can tell you though that I will never go back to shooting landscape with an OVF. Clinging to an OVF is a lot like clinging to film. It's that big of a game changer, no question.
well, that's you. I can't ever see the benefit of shooting landscape with anything BUT an OVF. otherwise you don't get the natural contrast, dynamic range of the scene as you are framing the image. you get a 8 bit blocked up video stream that can even approach distracting at higher ISO's because of noise.

Nor can that video stream really indicate when you are raw clipped, and will artificially clip at "jpg" levels and not at raw latitude levels.

essentially it's a "make do" for a lack of understanding of the scene, your sensor and what your histogram is suggesting to you.

I find it always curious that some assert that they need high DR sensors and the works and then view the image data through a low DR and usually tight contrast curve EVF....
Are you serious I cannot remember the last time I shot any serious landscape not on a tripod in live-view. Normally this is with the histogram for reference.

I like low angles and do not use a OVF or EVF on any of my cameras when shooting landscape. I have also found that the camera JPG settings can really throw off the live-view so I have found it necessary to set the JPEG image profile to faithful/Neutral or what ever it is called on the camera you are using. This started when I was not paying attention to the histogram and hand an entire series of images underexposed because the JPG setting embedded in the Raw image had the contrast turned up.

I could see how a punched up high contrast EVF could cause the same issue. But in neutral settings with histogram this should be a non-issue.

All this said I prefer the bracketing and time-laps options on Canon to Sony.
 

xps

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 19, 2011
894
32
Middle Europe
I´ve seen the new Sony on an advertisement show this week. Not helding in my hands, but shown to us by an sony representative. Impressing, how fast this body is, and how accurate focussing works. And it is really silent.
Yes, I know, the mounted lenses are not for wildlife, but for wedding photographers. But it wouled be an option for BIF mounted on Canon lenses.

I hope Canon will bring out an mirrorless FF body in the next month. But this will not come true.
There is much discussion about that on the net. No one really knows (besides Canon managers). Some say, salesmanagement, others say Canon is still struggling to come close to Sony, and others are thinking Canon is waiting until Sony and Nikon offer their new products - to decide which feature has to be implemented and which not...
Canon will bring ml-FF bodies on the market, and some will be disappointed by their specs. But most of us will buy it and will be (the more or the less) satisfied with them.
Our best friends at Sony are an extremly hard working motor on the market. Developing many new lenses and bodies (just wait for the 7RIII). and this will be good for us Canonians too, as Sony "increases the lattice" and Canon has to compeed.
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
tcmatthews said:
rrcphoto said:
canonographer said:
I can tell you though that I will never go back to shooting landscape with an OVF. Clinging to an OVF is a lot like clinging to film. It's that big of a game changer, no question.
well, that's you. I can't ever see the benefit of shooting landscape with anything BUT an OVF. otherwise you don't get the natural contrast, dynamic range of the scene as you are framing the image. you get a 8 bit blocked up video stream that can even approach distracting at higher ISO's because of noise.

Nor can that video stream really indicate when you are raw clipped, and will artificially clip at "jpg" levels and not at raw latitude levels.

essentially it's a "make do" for a lack of understanding of the scene, your sensor and what your histogram is suggesting to you.

I find it always curious that some assert that they need high DR sensors and the works and then view the image data through a low DR and usually tight contrast curve EVF....
Are you serious I cannot remember the last time I shot any serious landscape not on a tripod in live-view. Normally this is with the histogram for reference.

I like low angles and do not use a OVF or EVF on any of my cameras when shooting landscape. I have also found that the camera JPG settings can really throw off the live-view so I have found it necessary to set the JPEG image profile to faithful/Neutral or what ever it is called on the camera you are using. This started when I was not paying attention to the histogram and hand an entire series of images underexposed because the JPG setting embedded in the Raw image had the contrast turned up.

I could see how a punched up high contrast EVF could cause the same issue. But in neutral settings with histogram this should be a non-issue.

All this said I prefer the bracketing and time-laps options on Canon to Sony.
I find back LCD / liveview LCD experience different from an EVF or OVF.

usually I use the liveview for rough histogram and framing but review the scene by "looking up" at it without either an OVF or LCD.

an EVF and an OVF share the same experience where you do the majority of composition and framing and the "idea" of the shot via the viewfinder.

and yes, you have to choose flat / neutral Jpg profile or that will affect your histogram.
 

Ian_of_glos

EOS RP
Jun 12, 2012
246
28
England
romanr74 said:
Why do you guys always try to convince each other? That's a completely futile excercise...
This is the first sensible comment I have seen in the whole debate. Surely we should be grateful that we still have a choice rather than trying to persuade everyone to adopt exactly the same type of camera.
 

ricky_005

EOS M50
Oct 13, 2016
37
0
GHPhotography said:
Orangutan said:
What should an individual photographer buy? The available item that best meets their needs.

What should a company make and sell? The items that are likely to be profitable.


Do not confuse the two: while there is some overlap, they are not the same question.
I feel like this is 95% of the issue people have on this forum. It's perfectly fine to be mad at Canon for not making what you want, but refusing to believe data that doesn't support your personal view is dumb. The fact is Canon dominates the market, and is gaining market share. Market giants stay giant by focusing on what is good for business and innovating/shifting either a) to grab/create a new market or b) respond to a new threat to your market share. Canon is doing both, but like all giants it is slow to move. When it does move, though, history shows it makes a massive impact.
If there was only one Camera company "Canon" we would all still be shooting 35mm film rolls.
 

Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
Nov 7, 2013
2,650
462
Germany
addola said:
Maximilian said:
addola said:
Ahhh, did you just tell me to "go back to learn optical formulas" then proceeded to use the comma & decimal interchangeably?
Oh no! I was joking about that! Hence the "Ha!"! My bad! Maybe I should put a smiley face :) instead. I know that in Europe you use the decimal/comma differently with Euros!
Okay! As I said before it seems that there was some missunderstanding on both sides. So let's just settle this, okay?

Take a look at DxOMark scores for transmission (T-Stop for actual transmission as opposed to F-Stop). I noticed that with Sony FF lenses, the transmission seem higher (closer to F-Stop) than SLR counterpart (Disclaimer: this is unscientific, and I could be wrong, but it's interesting)
Honestly I don't care a &%$"! on anything DxO measueres and tries to tell us anymore.
As their scores and conclusions are definetly far from beeing real scientific and objective I don't care a &%$"! on their measurements either because I don't know if I could trust them in any way.
But please don't let us open this new topic again. Just search for some DxOMark score threads in this forum.
I think they say it all.
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
0
Owning all current 8 Canon and Nikon Tilt Shift lenses, I can reassure you that they all work great on the Sony A7R2 - AND do work even better on the Sony body as they are stabilized.
[/quote]

I think you missed his point. You stated that Canon had no advantage over SONY regarding landscape photography. Clearly they have a very large advantage over SONY in landscape photography; tilt-shift lenses.
[/quote]

We are talking about the status of mirrorless cameras here, it doesn't matter if a lens is made by Sony, Canon, Sigma, Tamron or another brand. It only counts what you can do with the combination of camera and lens. And the fact is: There are 8 great Tilt shift options you can use on a Sony, plus stabilization. There are only 4 options each for Canon and Nikon, all without stabilization, focus peaking etc etc. Sony is the clear #1 tilt shift camera brand right now.
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
0
bdunbar79 said:
douglaurent said:
LonelyBoy said:
douglaurent said:
...or what you can read in worldwide photo forums, or hear from photographers and filmmakers everywhere. Because it's not a subjective feeling, it's based on the specs and features of existing camera models, and clearly visible different speeds of innovation between Canon/Nikon and Sony/Panasonic/Olympus.
How exactly is that more meaningful than actual sales data?
How is sales data more meaningful than being a photographer and filmmaker working on a project with tools that are artificially limited?
Why do you work with those tools if they are limited? Isn't part of being a professional photographer using the tools that you need? Why are you using Canon products if they limit you? His point was that the MAJORITY of consumers do NOT find them limiting, demonstrated by market share and sales. Who cares what YOU want?
And who cares what you write? Canon cameras can still be used in some limited scenarios with the same convenience as Sony cameras, and sometimes they are the better choice than Sony cameras. It doesnt change the fact that the lack of 20+ helpful features is missing in Canon cameras. For me and all Canon users out there who are wasting time because of that.
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
0
Orangutan said:
douglaurent said:
They waste some years with inconvenient workflows and missing features, because Canon plays it slow.

...

Canon losing customers to Sony or Panasonic, and also losing reputation for their slow path innovation is a fact you can read, hear and see today.

...

Just right now Canon's tactics are a lose-lose situation for them and their customers.

Aside from your own personal observations, what evidence do you have that these are true assertions?
The evidence of 20+ precious features that only competitors of Canon do offer in their camera, and the knowledge that many photographers are not stupid enough to oversee these facts.
 

Hflm

Gear: 5div, A7riii, A9 ...
Jan 10, 2017
88
0
douglaurent said:
Orangutan said:
douglaurent said:
They waste some years with inconvenient workflows and missing features, because Canon plays it slow.

...

Canon losing customers to Sony or Panasonic, and also losing reputation for their slow path innovation is a fact you can read, hear and see today.

...

Just right now Canon's tactics are a lose-lose situation for them and their customers.

Aside from your own personal observations, what evidence do you have that these are true assertions?
The evidence of 20+ precious features that only competitors of Canon do offer in their camera, and the knowledge that many photographers are not stupid enough to oversee these facts.
I use Canon AND Sony A7rii professionally and no, I don't find the 5div is strongly compromised and missing 20+ features. I find it very capable and didn't feel limited using it at weddings. Instead I feel limited _more_ by the Sony A7rii. The 5div is an excellent camera, underestimated by many in my opinion (I shot Nikon D810 and D759 before, as well as tried Fuji and Olympus, so I think to have a very good overview).
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
0
neuroanatomist said:
douglaurent said:
Canon losing customers to Sony or Panasonic, and also losing reputation for their slow path innovation is a fact you can read, hear and see today. It doesn't need any apocalyptic predictions for that - and as Canon will catch up at some point, this problem might not exist anymore in the years 2020/2021/2022 to eternity.

Just right now Canon's tactics are a lose-lose situation for them and their customers.
While it's technically true that Canon is losing customers to Sony or Panasonic, it's also true that Sony and Panasonic are losing customers to Canon. Given that Canon has been gaining ILC market share while Sony has lost it, your implication that Canon is losing net customers as 'fact' is at odds with reality. But we've already established that you prefer to believe your opinion over documented fact...I believe you earlier recommended that someone seek medical attention...a psychiatrist is the appropriate medical professional to address the problems of those who cannot accept reality.


douglaurent said:
Apparently you can't seem to accept the objective reality that Canon is the most popular global brand for dSLRs. How sad.
In what way is the popularity of Canon relevant regarding the proven facts that their top products are behind in at least 20 important features? Is this a forum about technical features, or the forum of the Wall Street Journal or brand values?
It is relevant because in spite of your contention that Canon is 'behind in at least 20 features' that you personally find important, Canon's popularity and nearly 50% and growing ILC market share indicate that the majority of consumers don't find those 20 features particularly important, or don't think that Canon is behind in the areas that matter to them.

Obviously, you're welcome to have and share your opinion. Just don't go thinking that your opinion is universally shared…the actual facts clearly show that your opinion is irrelevant in the context of the ILC market.


douglaurent said:
Any average customer - and those millions of people who bought cheap DSLRs - appreciates what an EVF can do if you show it to them (a viewfinder that shows the right exposure and focus helps, lets you see video and review shots etc etc). The reason why most of these people DON'T buy any new DSLR's or add lenses is, that the workflow completely sucks, and they are not supported in improving their skills.
So now you're speaking for millions of customers, and claiming to have knowledge of what drives their purchasing decisions? Talk about delusional… Millions of people don't buy new cameras and lenses because 'the workflow completely sucks'? Completely asinine. It's far more likely that in most cases, the camera and lens(es) they have are meeting their needs perfectly well.
Maybe it's better when we continue to talk in 5-10 years - and when you personally use a new Canon camera that by then will all have these common ground features. If asked if you would go back to a 5D4, you will for sure not want to do that - because you also don't want to miss the many new features that Canon competitors already do offer today.

The main question here is: why are people who don't think that anything from extremely steady sensor stabilization to seeing the actual exposure in a viewfinder and many other obvious and basic improvements do even spend time in a forum that is all about new product developments, when in fact they are not interested in any of that? Or what are the great features YOU want to see from Canon? Please send us your wish list.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,227
416
ricky_005 said:
If there was only one Camera company "Canon" we would all still be shooting 35mm film rolls.
Stupid comment - noone is suggesting Canon should be the only camera manufacturer
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,227
416
douglaurent said:
The evidence of 20+ precious features that only competitors of Canon do offer in their camera, and the knowledge that many photographers are not stupid enough to oversee these facts.
What - you mean all competitors offer all of those features?
If they don't then it means those competitors are, in turn, doing something wrong.

By the way, do you still think the 1Dx is the better camera than Sony, like in the quote I posted?
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,227
416
xps said:
I´ve seen the new Sony on an advertisement show this week. Not helding in my hands, but shown to us by an sony representative. Impressing, how fast this body is, and how accurate focussing works. And it is really silent.
Yes, I know, the mounted lenses are not for wildlife, but for wedding photographers. But it wouled be an option for BIF mounted on Canon lenses.
You mean like the frame rate drops to 7 fps when you mount a Canon lens and the AF is compromised?
Nope - give me a Canon body on a Canon lens for that one....
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,963
1,174
119
douglaurent said:
....because you also don't want to miss the many new features that Canon competitors already do offer today.
I just bought a 1DX MkII, what features have I missed out on that will make an actual real world difference to my shooting?

The D5 is not 'better' anywhere and the A9 doesn't have the lens support I need today. When I want live view I use 'Live View', if the light is bad I can use an eyepiece on that larger screen with more resolution. I already have histogram's, blinkies and a host of 'must have' features, and, if early reports hold up to greater scrutiny, it appears of the high speed 'action' cameras the 1DX MkII is the outright leader in IQ.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,177
1,730
Canada
Personally, I see nothing wrong with saying that Canon has the best selling DSLRs and that overall their system is the best (and that includes things like lenses, accessories, service, and ergonomics), but at the same time saying that there are places where they can (or should) improve.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

When they introduce a mirrorless model, we can expect to see things like absolute silly burst mode speeds (at least 60FPS, my P/S does 100!, and apparently the 1DX2 can do 60 in live-view), and a combination of IBIS and lens based IS..... like Olympus is using.... They have 6 to 6.5 stops of IS and when trying one out at the local shop I did a hand-held 2 second exposure that came out sharp! I WANT THAT!!!!! If the 7D3 or 6D2 had that in live view I would break my rule about skipping models and jump on that one like a fat boy on a wedding cake!
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
douglaurent said:
Orangutan said:
douglaurent said:
They waste some years with inconvenient workflows and missing features, because Canon plays it slow.

...

Canon losing customers to Sony or Panasonic, and also losing reputation for their slow path innovation is a fact you can read, hear and see today.

...

Just right now Canon's tactics are a lose-lose situation for them and their customers.

Aside from your own personal observations, what evidence do you have that these are true assertions?
The evidence of 20+ precious features that only competitors of Canon do offer in their camera, and the knowledge that many photographers are not stupid enough to oversee these facts.
actually for most photographers, they don't care about your little 20+ whiny points, because they still purchase canon cameras, and enjoy using them.

perhaps they actually know something you don't.

why don't you just go - you're nothing but a troll here.

and I really doubt you have all these cameras, and as you say - use them every day. frankly I doubt you have anything other than a freaking Fischer price camera that you play with in your mom's basement.
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,963
1,174
119
Don Haines said:
Personally, I see nothing wrong with saying that Canon has the best selling DSLRs and that overall their system is the best (and that includes things like lenses, accessories, service, and ergonomics), but at the same time saying that there are places where they can (or should) improve.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

When they introduce a mirrorless model, we can expect to see things like absolute silly burst mode speeds (at least 60FPS, my P/S does 100!, and apparently the 1DX2 can do 60 in live-view), and a combination of IBIS and lens based IS..... like Olympus is using.... They have 6 to 6.5 stops of IS and when trying one out at the local shop I did a hand-held 2 second exposure that came out sharp! I WANT THAT!!!!! If the 7D3 or 6D2 had that in live view I would break my rule about skipping models and jump on that one like a fat boy on a wedding cake!
Agree, 100%

If you can make do with jpegs and lower resolution the 1DX MkII will already do 120 fps.