Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]

pj1974

EOS Rebel SL2
Oct 18, 2011
554
12
Adelaide, Australia
I'm surprised you boiled it down to just two sizes, since you've also used the 7D which is considerably bulkier than the 80D. There's also the 1D size, which personally I find the best hand-holdable size for prolonged use. It's actually more comfortable than a gripped 7D for me because the curves all fall in just the right place.

So personally I'd want any FF mirrorless to be 7D-sized minimum.

And can we please get rid of that stupid mode-dial? What a waste of space on a 21st-century device.
I was categorising size in two groups (apologies if that was unclear, I should have written "sizes" to make that clearer).
So yes, the DSLR sizes and the current mirrorless (APS-C) sizes are both valid sizes.

Personally, the 80D is closest to the ideal size and shape for me.. but anything from a 700D to a 7D works reasonably well for me.

I have used Canon's 1D series cameras, and I find them too large and uncomfortable, and I have never had trouble shooting portraits for hours and hours on end with a single grip. (I do agree that the built in grip of the 1D is superior to the added / screw on grip of single grip DSLRs though).

Like many other users, I prefer the mode dial... to other options. I can switch between modes much quicker than using a menu. Granted, there can be other means to change (e.g. customisable buttons) - but the mode dial, particularly with custom modes (I would love 5 or more custom modes, and get rid of, or being able to program over the 'basic' &/or scenes modes)

I do hope (& expect) Canon will be meeting a number of different customer base needs, with a variety of mirrorless models and options in the near future. Canon have done their homework: market research, product testing, ergonomic designing and so much more. They are, and will be ready. And we are all the better for it. Competition is a good thing! So is innovation. ;)

Cheers,

PJ
 
Aug 21, 2018
13
1
There have been a few posts after my earlier contribution, where I shared my experience of having and using Canon's M5.
A few observations to note and aspects to share (very conscious from my own perspective):
1) Ergonomics is very subjective. Based on many factors, including handsize, preferences, other physical characteristics, etc. What works for one, may not necessarily work for another. I have average size male hands (for a middle aged Caucasian male).
2) Some people learn / adapt and are both better & quicker at developing muscle memory than others. I have used film cameras, then early model Fuji and Kodak digital P&S. Then Canon DSLRs, and added Canon mirrorless to the mix. I have adapted to each.
3) I believe I will always feel that a camera the size of around my Canon 80D is more of a natural fit than a M5. a bit smaller than the 80D could work, and slightly larger also (e.g. I also own the 7D which is notably larger / heavier, but still comfortable... and I really appreciate the thumb joystick)
4) In terms of ergonomics, the 80D is a significant step up from my Canon 350D. The 350D's grip in particular is frustratingly cramped. But the 350D still feels way better than most P&S cameras. The M5 is a step up from my M10. The lack of any real grip on the M10 is a shame, but understandable. Plus it keeps the camera / lens combination small and light. However the M5 with a compact lens (e.g. 22mm f/2 or 15-45mm zoom) is very portable and light.
5) The Canon M mirrorless bodies DO fit a specific niche / area, e.g. with the smaller / more compact / lighter lenses. I do not intend to use my current mirrorless cameras (M5 or M10) with larger EF/EF-S lenses much at all, i.e. via the adapter. I rather use my DSLRs (mainly 80D and 7D) for larger lenses e.g. my 70-300mm L, my 100mm L, Sigma 8-16mm or my 15-85mm lens.
6) I hope that Canon might produce one (or more) EOS-M (mirrorless) APS-C models, which are a larger camera body- e.g. somewhere in the size range of the 800D / 77D / 80D. I also hope that Canon's FF mirrorless will incorporate a lot of great existing technology (e.g. DPAF) with some potential improvements (e.g. improved battery life, improved initial acquisition and tracking, low-light work)
7) Lenses! The existing APS-C EOM lenses are great quality - in terms of image quality and size/weight/build quality. The existing lenses are very good in terms of IQ (sharpness, contrast, IS, AF speed and accuracy). I would look forward to some new/more lenses soon (obviously also those more suited to FF too).
8) Canon is smart. Their market share and history demonstrates that. Canon will likely produce a solidly producing FF mirrorless camera with reliable and very well implemented feature, that will sell well and be used by many happy photographers and videographers.
Regards,
PJ
That would be great. I think it the cameras both the larger M series and the FF cameras should have great egronamics and come in Black, Brown and Khaki bodies with accents in Black, Sliver, and Gold with all three body colors.
 
Likes: pj1974

zim

EOS 7D Mark II
Oct 18, 2011
1,821
36
---

Sorry, but the new camera kind looks and feels rather good sitting on my desk RIGHT NOW! It's kinda hard to argue when I'm seeing and feeling the final result IN MY HANDS AT THIS VERY MOMENT! Oooooohhhhhh! I wish I could upload some photos and video right now...!!!! This IS SWEEEEEEEET! FULL DCI 8K x 6k up to 60 fps and DCI 4k/5k video at up to 120 fps at multiple aspect ratios, MULTIPLE RAW/444/422/420 interframe AND intraframe codecs with NO extra licence fees. 25 fps 50 Megapixel stills burst at 444 RAW and 444/422 JPEG2000 ... 6.8 microns sensor sites...WHAT A LUMA AND LOW NOISE RESPONSE !!! This IS TRULY the Beast Camera from $$$$$$$$ with F1.4 and even F1.2 prime lenses and big zooms RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE! This IS ASBOLUTELY AN UNTOUCHABLE COMBINED video and stills camera! And it's coming a lot sooner than you think at a price point that will jolt the industry like a wild bronco !!!!!!!!
Tell you what Harry, take a dated photo, DON'T upload it, after your nda has expired post it up
 
Since bokehmon was asking about which camera company will package an EVF with two unqualified characteristics first, one must assume that no camera currently available has one yet, thus the A9/A7R3 EVF in this context is either not high resolution, not fast, or both.
it is fast and high res. there are specific settings for the EVF on the Alpha. I own one so I know.
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D Mark IV
Mar 2, 2012
2,552
111
it is fast and high res. there are specific settings for the EVF on the Alpha. I own one so I know.
The problem with “fast” and “high res” is that they’re subjective terms, hence my quoted post.

A9 and A7Riii don’t meet the quoted poster’s threshold of high res or fast; it was later stated that ~5 million dots and 240Hz would. The current alphas don’t do that despite settings, which incidentally let you choose between full speed or full resolution. Even if it let you choose full speed and full resolution, both would be below threshold.
 
Last edited:

TAF

EOS M5
Feb 26, 2012
295
4
That would be great. I think it the cameras both the larger M series and the FF cameras should have great egronamics and come in Black, Brown and Khaki bodies with accents in Black, Sliver, and Gold with all three body colors.
Does anyone remember the olive drab F-1 from the 1970's? I always wanted one of those...
 

TAF

EOS M5
Feb 26, 2012
295
4
---

Sorry, but the new camera kind looks and feels rather good sitting on my desk RIGHT NOW! It's kinda hard to argue when I'm seeing and feeling the final result IN MY HANDS AT THIS VERY MOMENT! Oooooohhhhhh! I wish I could upload some photos and video right now...!!!! This IS SWEEEEEEEET! FULL DCI 8K x 6k up to 60 fps and DCI 4k/5k video at up to 120 fps at multiple aspect ratios, MULTIPLE RAW/444/422/420 interframe AND intraframe codecs with NO extra licence fees. 25 fps 50 Megapixel stills burst at 444 RAW and 444/422 JPEG2000 ... 6.8 microns sensor sites...WHAT A LUMA AND LOW NOISE RESPONSE !!! This IS TRULY the Beast Camera from $$$$$$$$ with F1.4 and even F1.2 prime lenses and big zooms RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE! This IS ASBOLUTELY AN UNTOUCHABLE COMBINED video and stills camera! And it's coming a lot sooner than you think at a price point that will jolt the industry like a wild bronco !!!!!!!!

I'm guessing that would be the one I saw at Mystic a few months ago, which looked like an EOS-M on steroids, a viewfinder bump that was 2/3 the width of the camera, and which clearly had an EF mount because it had a 70-200 F4 on it that looked entirely appropriately sized.

Sort of a modern take on the original Canon rangefinder camera, without the rangefinder ports on the front.

Right?
 

justaCanonuser

Grab your camera, go out and shoot!
Feb 12, 2014
246
75
Frankfurt, Germany
Sort of a modern take on the original Canon rangefinder camera, without the rangefinder ports on the front.

Right?
The nice thing about an original Canon 7 or P from early 50s/60s is that their viewfinders provide about infinite dots with infinite FPS with a near to zero lag (only limited by the velocity of light) - without the need of any battery ;-) So they were far ahead of today's ML technology, also because they forced photographers to train their eye and imagination. You had to use your brain, not the chimping button, and with 36 images on a film (or 12 on a roll of 120 film) you shot much more carefully ... that's btw one of the reasons why I started shoot again film in parallel to digital photography (I am no purist, I like both worlds).

That said, I am pretty sure that Canon will not jump on the retro look train for their "R" series - even they could link them to the beautiful rangefinders they used to make. But Canon seems always to strive for modern ergonomics, fortunately. Retro look is fake, because it breaks the classic rule of good industrial design that form follows function. A digital camera is a computer connected with a light sensor, so it should not look like a vintage camera.
 

TAF

EOS M5
Feb 26, 2012
295
4
The nice thing about an original Canon 7 or P from early 50s/60s is that their viewfinders provide about infinite dots with infinite FPS with a near to zero lag (only limited by the velocity of light) - without the need of any battery ;-) So they were far ahead of today's ML technology, also because they forced photographers to train their eye and imagination. You had to use your brain, not the chimping button, and with 36 images on a film (or 12 on a roll of 120 film) you shot much more carefully ... that's btw one of the reasons why I started shoot again film in parallel to digital photography (I am no purist, I like both worlds).

That said, I am pretty sure that Canon will not jump on the retro look train for their "R" series - even they could link them to the beautiful rangefinders they used to make. But Canon seems always to strive for modern ergonomics, fortunately. Retro look is fake, because it breaks the classic rule of good industrial design that form follows function. A digital camera is a computer connected with a light sensor, so it should not look like a vintage camera.

I am not suggesting that Canon's new FF-ML is retro per se; I was trying (unsuccessfully, it appears) to provide a description that would make sense to most folks.

Let me try again.

Take an EOS-M. Enlarge it so that it is about the size (ht, width) of an SL-1 or Rebel. But keep the box like shape. Put a thin finger 'grip' on it like the EOS-M has.

Now, put a flat topped bump on the top of the body that is 2/3 the width of the body. Imagine taking the pentprism and smushing it down so it spreads out wider, but not as tall. But it retains the rounded sloped sides as it transitions into the body. It was centered on the body, unlike most rangefinder cameras.

But I liken it to a 1950's rangefinder camera so you can picture the sort of shape; in the 50's, the rangefinder hump was flat sided where it went into the body, in this case it is smoothly curved. But otherwise, not too far off conceptually.

This is the body I saw with a 70-200 attached to it.

I did not see the back, so I have no idea what the LCD screen or rear controls looked like. And my very brief glance at the top only registered in my mind the Canon text, not the dial or hotshoe, or anything else.

Oh, and maybe the "R" stands for "Rangefinder".
 
The problem with “fast” and “high res” is that they’re subjective terms, hence my quoted post.

A9 and A7Riii don’t meet the quoted poster’s threshold of high res or fast; it was later stated that ~5 million dots and 240Hz would. The current alphas don’t do that despite settings, which incidentally let you choose between full speed or full resolution. Even if it let you choose full speed and full resolution, both would be below threshold.
At first I hated the EVF. Now I can't think of going back to an optical one. It works very well.
 

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,188
163
Canada
Mirrorless has several advantages over mirrored bodies, just like mirrored has advantages over mirrorless.

They are both tools. You use the appropriate tool to do the job. If I am a sport photographer and want to get a shot of the instant the soccer ball is deflected by the netminder, then I want my mirrorless camera with it's 120FPS burst mode..... If I am out there shooting at night, I want my optical viewfinder.... for everything in between those two extremes, it really does not matter.

Right now, we are well past the point where the lens you pick will have way more impact on your shot than the camera you pick......
 

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,188
163
Canada
What's the point of a Rumor Site on a brand which does not create any really new product?
I am also considering switching to ? Suggestions, any body ?
If you want cutting edge, go Panasonic.

All Canon has to offer is reliability, lens and accessory selection, great service, and stability.....
 

neuroanatomist

Spends too much time on this forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,313
360
What's the point of a Rumor Site on a brand which does not create any really new product?
I am also considering switching to ? Suggestions, any body ?
I recommend that you switch to sonyalpharumors.com, although you could also switch to nikonrumors.com. It’s great to be a rumor consumer these days, there are so many websites from which to choose.
 

ken

Engineer, snapper of photos, player of banjos
Aug 8, 2016
74
56
Huntsville, AL
What's the point of a Rumor Site on a brand which does not create any really new product?
I am also considering switching to ? Suggestions, any body ?
What system are you switching from, and what are your reasons for switching? What are your needs? It's impossible to respond in a meaningful way to your question without more information. I'd say you should consider reading reviews and then renting any system you're considering switching to before buying. That's going to answer your question way more than asking on a forum for a manufacturer that you seem to be moving away from.

I have a strong interest in a FF mirrorless camera body myself. But I plan to wait to see what Canon eventually offers, because I have been thoroughly pleased with the products I have purchased from them in the past. If they come up short, I'll have to consider all the tradeoffs with whatever other FF systems are on the market at that time. The entire ecosystem (lenses, speedlites, etc.) has to be considered.

Speaking for myself, the rate of a company's new product lines isn't much of a concern for me as a consumer. It doesn't alter the quality of what I already own in any way. In fact, if the product lines change too rapidly, you might want to consider what that means for long-term support of a camera if the vendor stops making it after only 2 years from launch.
 

justaCanonuser

Grab your camera, go out and shoot!
Feb 12, 2014
246
75
Frankfurt, Germany
Oh, and maybe the "R" stands for "Rangefinder".
A classic rangefinder digitally reloaded would surprise me, because that involves a lot of fine mechanics. Today, the production of such cameras would be quite costly. Leica's rangefinders are expensive, and Nikons remake of the S3 in the 2000s was also. Nikon had a lot of technical trouble with reviving this camera btw, if I remember correctly. Maybe today a part of the assembly of the mechanics could be automized with robots, in the days back it were done by low-paid women with petite fingers.

I am pretty sure that Canon will come up with a modern EVF ML body instead of plunging in such an economical adventure - much easier to assemble. If they stick with in-lens IS the body can be kept as mechanically simple as the first Sony A7 series. With the advancement of electronic shutters such a camera would be even more simple in the future.