Canon Inc. full year 2018 financial results, and thoughts on the industry and future goals

#21
Can you please provide some links to sources to corroborate your statements around Sony potentially spinning off their camera division? My Google searches have failed to find this. Also, when I look into the their financial reports, it appears their camera division is making profit. I'm not Wall Street trader though, so perhaps I'm missing something. Their Operatin Income was positive in FY16, FY17 and projected to be positive for FY18.
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It was announced in 2015, and the spin-off was completed in 2018. It's not a 'potential' it's already completed, that's what IP&S is.

"Semicon" two lines down is Sony Semiconductor Solutions, another spin-off announced in October of 2015 and since completed.

You're looking at the holding company's (Sony's) consolidated financial results. Semiconductor Solutions and Imaging Products and Solutions are separate companies. Sony is the holding corporation.

SIP&S OI is fine, cameras segment isn't. https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/18q1_sonypre.pdf

Cameras segment is looking at, about, 3.8 million units moved in 2019 at no profit (though of course there's debate there). Many believe they will be sold, just as PCs were.
 
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#22
It was announced in 2015, and the spin-off was completed in 2018. It's not a 'potential' it's already completed, that's what IP&S is.

"Semicon" two lines down is Sony Semiconductor Solutions, another spin-off announced in October of 2015 and since completed.

You're looking at the holding company's (Sony's) consolidated financial results. Semiconductor Solutions and Imaging Products and Solutions are separate companies. Sony is the holding corporation.

SIP&S OI is fine, pictures segment isn't. https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/18q1_sonypre.pdf

Pictures segment is looking at, about, 3.8 million units moved in 2018 at no profit (though of course there's debate there). Many believe they will be sold, just as PCs were.
Thanks for the PDF. When it says Pictures, I think that means "Sony Pictures" as in the movie and television production company. Back down in IPSS it says digital cameras have decreased about 20% from 2017 to 2018? Income is still positive, it sounds like because of their higher cost movie cameras.
 

neuroanatomist

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Jul 21, 2010
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#23
Pretty much. Photographers, while generally good people, are honestly really bad as a group when it comes to following the business news.
The implication is here that you are good at following the business news, and then you go and suggest that Sony Pictures is the business unit that produces cameras.

Oh, the irony.
 
#24
I'm pretty sure that the gizmodo article he/she was referring to is this one: https://gizmodo.com/sony-please-dont-give-up-on-gadgets-1826205738

That would be the one. As you can see early on in the article he links right to a Bloomberg article detailing the issue I brought (as I was saying, this has been in the news for years now and I'm not sure why so many reviewers seem to be completely unaware).

https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/irday/2018/presen_E.pdf

That was the 'real' impetus for the post
The implication is clearly that you are good at following the business news, and then you suggest that Sony Pictures is the business unit that produces cameras.

Oh, the irony.

'Quote from other post by poster I just ignored was here and I guess got deleted' - This was to someone else.

Because a typo? I typed 'pictures' instead of 'cameras' genius.

Yeah, me and Bloomberg are clueless.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...tail-shift-away-from-gadgets-in-mid-term-plan

Oh, and Gizmmodo.

https://gizmodo.com/sony-please-dont-give-up-on-gadgets-1826205738

Well, and the CEO of Sony himself, Yoshia.

https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/irday/2018/presen_E.pdf


But you're right, none of this is true, your snarkiness trumps Bloomberg, Nikko, Rakuten, and Nikkei (who's calling for no profit in 2019).

Irony? All of this in a thread around an article detailing how Canon is providing numbers of the decrease (quite drastic at that) for the next two years.
 
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#25
Thanks for the PDF. When it says Pictures, I think that means "Sony Pictures" as in the movie and television production company. Back down in IPSS it says digital cameras have decreased about 20% from 2017 to 2018? Income is still positive, it sounds like because of their higher cost movie cameras.
Yeah sorry, that was a typo made while finishing up at work.

Trying to find the Nikkei projections for 2019 I had. For some reason I didn't bookmark it. They have Sony at 3.8 million units moved in the digital camera market, worldwide, at no profit.

This is Nikkei at the time of the announcement. https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Sony-to-spin-off-camera-biz-completing-detachment-of-all-ops

Of course there's all sorts of debate about this, but part of the reason why is because Yoshia isn't hiding the fact that he's moving away from hardware. It's also pretty much the exact same path they took with PC's.

Sony Rumors really did a good job of summing it up at the time:

"Under this new management style, the camera division can focus on what it does best, creating cameras and camcorders without worrying about a direct need to tie their product roadmap and strategy with that of another division. This means being held accountable for their products and performance – and no more of one division floating another in hopes of them eventually being profitable.
Now Sony Imaging Products & Solutions must act as if it were a separate company and if things go well, Sony Corp. reaps the benefits. If they’re unable to stay competitive and profitable, they’ll ‘simply’ be shuttered or closed down without repercussions to other parts of Sony that are doing well, like PlayStation.
"
This was October 2016. People have been talking about it since, just not reviewers.
 

neuroanatomist

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Jul 21, 2010
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#26
SIP&S OI is fine, pictures segment isn't. https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/18q1_sonypre.pdf

Pictures segment is looking at, about, 3.8 million units moved in 2018 at no profit (though of course there's debate there). Many believe they will be sold, just as PCs were.
Because a typo? I typed 'pictures' instead of 'cameras' genius.
Twice? That’s not a typo, you’re just sloppy.

Incidentally, I never disagreed with your premise. But thanks anyway for the link-laden snark-fest of a response to an argument I didn’t make.
 

M_S

EOS 80D
Jul 31, 2013
144
5
#28
Which is more attractive: a small, handy smartphone with a powerful processor that can make calls or a large camera with a powerful processor that cannot make calls? Regarding battery issues, I propose you compare the number of photos a tiny DSLR like the EOS 77D can take (sized down to ~ 12 MP like most smartphones) against that from a smartphone.

What I am trying to say is this: apart from image quality, there is no way an ILC can beat a smartphone. The Google Pixel 3 probably runs circles round most fixed lens compact cameras.
And that is what I am trying to say: If cameras stay the way they are now, they have a hard time competing, at least in the entry market. More things and computational power have to show up in order to see eye to eye with smartphones. And yes, pricepoint is also one aspect. If you can get a decent smartphone in the 700 Euro reach, which can do so much, as you correctly described, how can a 4000 Euro camera be as relevant as that one for that special area? Smartphones wouldn't have reached their popularity, if the manufactures would have had the attitude that they can't compete with computers, because they already existed, and that they would not use it for music, because walkmans existed as well. I think they clearly got rid of "no way" when bringing this product to the market, time and time again.
 

capital1956

I'm New Here
Sep 19, 2012
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#29
It was announced in 2015, and the spin-off was completed in 2018. It's not a 'potential' it's already completed, that's what IP&S is.

"Semicon" two lines down is Sony Semiconductor Solutions, another spin-off announced in October of 2015 and since completed.

You're looking at the holding company's (Sony's) consolidated financial results. Semiconductor Solutions and Imaging Products and Solutions are separate companies. Sony is the holding corporation.

SIP&S OI is fine, cameras segment isn't. https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/18q1_sonypre.pdf

Cameras segment is looking at, about, 3.8 million units moved in 2019 at no profit (though of course there's debate there). Many believe they will be sold, just as PCs were.
Even the pdf file that you posted here shows that the Imaging Products & Solutions Segment of SONY has a nice Operating Income. Not the No- profit that you stated. Am I missing something here?

https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/18q1_sonypre.pdf
 
#30
It is easy for me to understand the needs of Canon. With advanced business degrees I would advise the same. Nevertheless as a canon owner who has invested close to a hundred thousand in their high end lenses and bodies and is continuously underwhelmed by their new releases I can’t help but feel abandoned. My favorite 5DSR needs an update to come closer to the newer Nikon and Sony models. In many top ten camera lists the Canon products are no longer mentioned. If Canon keeps falling behind because they want to invest elsewhere and it’s cameras have half the advances of the competiton then any new buyer will avoid the Canon line. I will give Canon one more year and then I’ll switch to Sony AR7iii+ or NIKON’s 850. I loved my Canons but can’t be locked into a company who’s priorities are no longer mine.
 

neuroanatomist

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Jul 21, 2010
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#32
Wow, yet another new sign up just to say ‘Canon, I’m off to xyz if you don’t make the camera I want,’ perhaps they expect more sympathy here than if they message Canon directly!
It’s a little sad that some people seem jealous, for lack of a better word, about products from other manufacturers. If someone has thousands or tens of thousands of dollars invested in Canon gear (I have the latter), most likely they can afford to switch or buy into another system, if that system offers something they need. But I suspect most people don’t honestly evaluate their needs, they just see that someone else has a feature they don’t have, and they wants it Precious, they wants it and they must haves it. And if Canon won’t be offer it, they’re going to jump ship. Except we know that they must likely won’t.

Personally, my Canon gear does meet my needs. I saw no need to upgrade to the 1D X II, nor the 600/4 III. I don’t needs them, Precious.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
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#33
After skimming through these posts here is what I perceive.

The long term viability of some companies if they are strictly producing cameras is shaky and there is no guarantee that Sony, for example, will continue to outpace Canon in various specs. After all, R&D is expensive. Leave Canon and invest heavily - I see this as an added risk and I won't since I prefer the complete Canon "package" and as Neuro suggests, I will not be a significantly better photographer if I do so.

Smartphones are limited in sensor size and I can't imagine them ever competing in the serious photographer marketplace particularly relative to telephoto shooting for sports and wildlife or those who want/need the highest quality of photo. They are handy and have encouraged many people who never took photos to do so and some of them will develop an interest in more serious photography. This might actually be a benefit to be milked by the camera companies if they provide the right products that would appeal to these folk.

Canon is not a knee jerk company and I'm personally happy they are not rushing products to market based on having the most impressive tech sheet. To me they seem to be taking care of all the things that count for long term viability while still providing very good products and service. They knew very well where things were headed and have been slowly taking care of putting themselves in the best possible position to not only survive but stay on top.

For those who grumble, there is some truth to your complaints and so you really should jump ship and enjoy the grass on the other side. I will not unless it's for a camera that is small and not interchangeable-lens and even then I'd give a lot of thought to things like how good are they with repairs,etc.

Jack
 
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#34
Even the pdf file that you posted here shows that the Imaging Products & Solutions Segment of SONY has a nice Operating Income. Not the No- profit that you stated. Am I missing something here?

https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/18q1_sonypre.pdf

That seems to be one of the points of debate.

If those internal, rosey, early numbers are spot on, why is the CEO telling investors straight out on investor days the new company isn't part of Sony's future? How are they, the new company, claiming digital camera profits (just one revenue stream in that total) are holding when from Bloomberg to Nikkei analyst are predicting flat on profits? How can the new company believably (they generate those numbers then give them to Sony) show numbers that fly in the face of the very widely reported beliefs that the sector is shrinking? Why is Sony taking, literally, the identical approach now that they did with Vaio when they dumped Vaio?

It's not just Canon who says the market is shrinking after all.

It's Sony's CEO who really has many saying the gadgets (not just cameras) are going to be dumped. It's more than a tad peculiar to say Sony is going to keep the company in the future when the CEO himself lays out a detailed plan regarding the future, and gadgets (including cameras) are dumped.

"Sony's CEO is wrong, Sony's CEO isn't going to dump gadgets!"

That's one, ah, heck of an 'interesting' analysis alright.

Hence my harping on reviewers initially: CEO lays out what Sony will keep going future, and it doesn't include cameras; reviewers seem completely unaware and say opposite because they like the a9's eye tracking software.

Pretty obvious who the better source is here.

It's well past analyst predictions when publications like Gizmodo are pleading for it not to happen and the CEO is providing details about what they're going to keep. Reviewers need to follow the business news if they're going to tell their followers about the business news.

My prediction is they'll be sold to a Chinese company. Probably set up production in/near Shenzhen (NOT Guangzhou) use the proximity of HK as a big advantage and crack into western markets in a sector no Chinese company is remotely doing well in, or even barely trying to be honest.

After all, this general approach has only happened about a gazillion times now. Over 700 similar deals in the past 10 years, just in western Europe alone, with more than half of those deals being complete buy-outs/take-overs. And as any expat who's lived on the mainland (like myself) can tell you, Chinese firms generally drool at the chance to 'show-up' Japan, it's all but the national sport.

We'll see what happens.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

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#36
Looking at the December 31, 2018 report, it does not look like the imaging business is going anywhere. Sony did sell some manufacturing facilities for camera modules, likely ones used in mobile phones. Thats likely because they can buy the modules back for less than it was costing them to make them.

The basic message is that they, like Canon are shifting emphasis to higher end products because thats where sales are still doing well. I expect to see Sony with a low cost FF mirrorless, but for them, low cost is still higher than Canon. If they can't compete with the RP, their sales will take a big hit. Most camera buyers go for price.


Imaging Products & Solutions (IP&S)
Sales increased 22.6 billion yen year-on-year to 516.1 billion yen, mainly due to an improvement in the product mix reflecting a shift to high value-added models, partially offset by a decrease in unit sales. Operating income increased 14.1 billion yen year-on-year to 82.1 billion yen, primarily due to the above-mentioned improvement in product mix as well as reductions in operating costs, partially offset by the decrease in unit sales.
 
#37
Looking at the December 31, 2018 report, it does not look like the imaging business is going anywhere. Sony did sell some manufacturing facilities for camera modules, likely ones used in mobile phones. Thats likely because they can buy the modules back for less than it was costing them to make them.

The basic message is that they, like Canon are shifting emphasis to higher end products because thats where sales are still doing well. I expect to see Sony with a low cost FF mirrorless, but for them, low cost is still higher than Canon. If they can't compete with the RP, their sales will take a big hit. Most camera buyers go for price.


Imaging Products & Solutions (IP&S)
Sales increased 22.6 billion yen year-on-year to 516.1 billion yen, mainly due to an improvement in the product mix reflecting a shift to high value-added models, partially offset by a decrease in unit sales. Operating income increased 14.1 billion yen year-on-year to 82.1 billion yen, primarily due to the above-mentioned improvement in product mix as well as reductions in operating costs, partially offset by the decrease in unit sales.
???

IP&S isn't the one that decides if IP&S is going to be sold by Sony.

" it does not look like the imaging business is going anywhere"

Ah, yeah it does, as detailed by the actions of Sony's CEO and the plan he laid out at investor's day.