Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless

eninja

EOS RP
Dec 17, 2012
277
1
IglooEater said:
Seems that canon is acting very late if they're having to respond to a market that is already beginning to shift. And if their dslr lineup is to be cannibalized it would seem better that it would be so by a Canon product than that of a competitor. It's as if it took until recently to even recognize that mirrorless was going to be a thing.
To give them credit, they seem to have caught on, and I expect to seem a great FullFrame mirrorless sometime :)
I think Canon intentionally playing dumb. They knew this is coming the whole time.
 

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
584
12
tomri said:
kubelik said:
I would be very happy to purchase the M50 except for the dearth of EF-M glass.
Full ACK. For me, the existence of a decent standard zoom is entry criterion into a new camera system. And the lack thereof tells me that Canon is not serious about positioning the M series for the "advanced amateur" market.
They need to make M version of 15-85mm and 17-55mm lens to start with. But these EF-S lens are very expensive at the beginning. Canon seems to be targeting users with limited camera budget and size conscious. Most probably we will get primes with reasonable price to complement slow zooms.
 

KirkD

EOS T7i
Nov 23, 2017
71
52
Canada
kirkdurston.wixsite.com
One of the disadvantages of coming late to the party is that many of the most efficient and cutting edge patents are gone. One must then come up with Rube Goldberg work-arounds that are more complicated and less effective and more expensive. I use Canon for still photography and Sony for videos. Canon might be great for high end videography, but for the average fellow on a tight budget, my little Sony a6500 beats Canon videography in both quality and cost. I wish Canon had something at least as good as the a6500, and they probably will in the future, but I need to shoot videos right now, not next year. The M50 is not even close to being in the same league as the a6500.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,639
2,153
jayphotoworks said:
In 2016, Japan was hit with a major earthquake. None of Canon's fabs were directly hit, but Sony's sensor fabs were directly affected. Olympus, Panasonic and many others utilize Sony sensors so this probably had a direct impact to their numbers both in 2016 and part of 2017. This is probably also reflected in the BCN awards for 2018 (which reports on CY2017 numbers). Canon gained mirrorless market share, but this may or may not be directly attributable to their push into mirrorless. I feel after 2018, we might have a better look into exactly where the trends are headed.
The quake was in April, and Sony indicated that the effects were over by the end of FY2016.

[quote author=Sony]
...we are forecasting a significant improvement in profitability for FY17 due to an increase in unit sales resulting from greater adoption of dual-lens cameras and growth in sales to Chinese manufacturers, as well as the absence of the impact of the Kumamoto Earthquakes.
[/quote]

Therefore, while 2016 was somewhat anamolous, 2017 likely represents a return to normal. Which, for Canon, means further growth in MILC market share.
 

jayphotoworks

EOS 80D
Aug 11, 2016
194
61
neuroanatomist said:
jayphotoworks said:
In 2016, Japan was hit with a major earthquake. None of Canon's fabs were directly hit, but Sony's sensor fabs were directly affected. Olympus, Panasonic and many others utilize Sony sensors so this probably had a direct impact to their numbers both in 2016 and part of 2017. This is probably also reflected in the BCN awards for 2018 (which reports on CY2017 numbers). Canon gained mirrorless market share, but this may or may not be directly attributable to their push into mirrorless. I feel after 2018, we might have a better look into exactly where the trends are headed.
The quake was in April, and Sony indicated that the effects were over by the end of FY2016.

[quote author=Sony]
...we are forecasting a significant improvement in profitability for FY17 due to an increase in unit sales resulting from greater adoption of dual-lens cameras and growth in sales to Chinese manufacturers, as well as the absence of the impact of the Kumamoto Earthquakes.
Therefore, while 2016 was somewhat anamolous, 2017 likely represents a return to normal. Which, for Canon, means further growth in MILC market share.
[/quote]

The effects may have ended by the end of FY2016 to the impact on their revenue, but the real impact on market share can be seen in the numbers. Olympus went from 34.5% to 26.8% and Sony went from 24.8% to 17.9% in FY2016. They realized gains in FY2017, but was not able to make up the ground lost during FY2016. If products are heavily allocated or unavailable in retail, consumers likely went to an alternate choice.

If the earthquake was not a factor, Canon would likely still not be in second place and Olympus would likely still have a sizable advantage in first. Both Canon and Sony made similar gains in FY2017, but Sony dropped significantly the year prior due to the earthquake and put them in third place.

Let's see what happens in FY2018.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,639
2,153
jayphotoworks said:
If the earthquake was not a factor, Canon would likely still not be in second place and Olympus would likely still have a sizable advantage in first. Both Canon and Sony made similar gains in FY2017, but Sony dropped significantly the year prior due to the earthquake and put them in third place.
Keep in mind you're referring to Japan-specific data. Globally, Sony holds the top spot in MILC market share, and they're a significant margin ahead of Canon and Olympus. 2016 was basically flat for them, and they had an increase of ~25% in 2017.
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
jayphotoworks said:
If the earthquake was not a factor, Canon would likely still not be in second place and Olympus would likely still have a sizable advantage in first. Both Canon and Sony made similar gains in FY2017, but Sony dropped significantly the year prior due to the earthquake and put them in third place.

Let's see what happens in FY2018.
or Sony would have remained around the same you have no idea, BCN is sold not shipped.

last year (2017) was not influenced by earthquake showed Olympus with a modest increase and both Canon and Sony with larger increases over the earthquake year of 2016. Last year all production facilities were back to full not not more. The production started up again around September of 2016, of which can be shown by CIPA data as the shipments for the last quarter of 2016 were massive compared to years past. By 2017, the earthquake was no longer a factor for sales.

so your theory falls a little flat, but good try.
 

dak723

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
435
jayphotoworks said:
neuroanatomist said:
jayphotoworks said:
In 2016, Japan was hit with a major earthquake. None of Canon's fabs were directly hit, but Sony's sensor fabs were directly affected. Olympus, Panasonic and many others utilize Sony sensors so this probably had a direct impact to their numbers both in 2016 and part of 2017. This is probably also reflected in the BCN awards for 2018 (which reports on CY2017 numbers). Canon gained mirrorless market share, but this may or may not be directly attributable to their push into mirrorless. I feel after 2018, we might have a better look into exactly where the trends are headed.
The quake was in April, and Sony indicated that the effects were over by the end of FY2016.

[quote author=Sony]
...we are forecasting a significant improvement in profitability for FY17 due to an increase in unit sales resulting from greater adoption of dual-lens cameras and growth in sales to Chinese manufacturers, as well as the absence of the impact of the Kumamoto Earthquakes.
Therefore, while 2016 was somewhat anamolous, 2017 likely represents a return to normal. Which, for Canon, means further growth in MILC market share.
The effects may have ended by the end of FY2016 to the impact on their revenue, but the real impact on market share can be seen in the numbers. Olympus went from 34.5% to 26.8% and Sony went from 24.8% to 17.9% in FY2016. They realized gains in FY2017, but was not able to make up the ground lost during FY2016. If products are heavily allocated or unavailable in retail, consumers likely went to an alternate choice.

If the earthquake was not a factor, Canon would likely still not be in second place and Olympus would likely still have a sizable advantage in first. Both Canon and Sony made similar gains in FY2017, but Sony dropped significantly the year prior due to the earthquake and put them in third place.

Let's see what happens in FY2018.
[/quote]

And why do you care whether Canon is #2 or #3 or even #5??

If you like what they offer, you can buy a Canon. If you like what Sony or Olympus offers, you can buy their cameras. Who cares where they are ranked? Apparently following the Camera sale standings is just another way internet forum users show how they have way too much time on their hands.
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
dak723 said:
jayphotoworks said:
neuroanatomist said:
jayphotoworks said:
In 2016, Japan was hit with a major earthquake. None of Canon's fabs were directly hit, but Sony's sensor fabs were directly affected. Olympus, Panasonic and many others utilize Sony sensors so this probably had a direct impact to their numbers both in 2016 and part of 2017. This is probably also reflected in the BCN awards for 2018 (which reports on CY2017 numbers). Canon gained mirrorless market share, but this may or may not be directly attributable to their push into mirrorless. I feel after 2018, we might have a better look into exactly where the trends are headed.
The quake was in April, and Sony indicated that the effects were over by the end of FY2016.

[quote author=Sony]
...we are forecasting a significant improvement in profitability for FY17 due to an increase in unit sales resulting from greater adoption of dual-lens cameras and growth in sales to Chinese manufacturers, as well as the absence of the impact of the Kumamoto Earthquakes.
Therefore, while 2016 was somewhat anamolous, 2017 likely represents a return to normal. Which, for Canon, means further growth in MILC market share.
The effects may have ended by the end of FY2016 to the impact on their revenue, but the real impact on market share can be seen in the numbers. Olympus went from 34.5% to 26.8% and Sony went from 24.8% to 17.9% in FY2016. They realized gains in FY2017, but was not able to make up the ground lost during FY2016. If products are heavily allocated or unavailable in retail, consumers likely went to an alternate choice.

If the earthquake was not a factor, Canon would likely still not be in second place and Olympus would likely still have a sizable advantage in first. Both Canon and Sony made similar gains in FY2017, but Sony dropped significantly the year prior due to the earthquake and put them in third place.

Let's see what happens in FY2018.
And why do you care whether Canon is #2 or #3 or even #5??

If you like what they offer, you can buy a Canon. If you like what Sony or Olympus offers, you can buy their cameras. Who cares where they are ranked? Apparently following the Camera sale standings is just another way internet forum users show how they have way too much time on their hands.
[/quote]

they are kind of important to counter point the whining that customers are leaving x for y and that x is losing the plot and marketshare, and these people have zero information to back that up in the real world.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,062
341
Vancouver, BC
BillB said:
You are right. The 6DII sensor lacks on chip ADC (but does have dual pixel Liveview), doesn't have a joystick, and its focus point coverage is what it is. On the other hand, Canon has been selling refurb 5DIV's consistently for $2700, and sometimes less than that. The refurb 5DIV costs more than the 6DII of your dreams, and it is heavier, but it is a heck of a lot more camera, at least as far as I am concerned. That was a good enough deal for me.
There is one reason that I did not purchase a full frame model of camera before the 6D2 -- a fully articulating touchscreen (and even worse, Canon's fixed LCD on every FF model prior).

Canon will never be able to sell me a flagship body, no matter how wonderful it is, without this feature, that's been around since t3i :D

I would also point out that for my purposes, a Rebel style full articulating screen is way, way more useful than an M5/D850/Sony style tilting screen. It's more important to me than whatever steps of DR, another 10 megapixels, or even full frame, because it dramatically improves my quality of life for tripod-based stills photography, when the camera is at difficult to access heights and angles.


dak723 said:
If you like what they offer, you can buy a Canon. If you like what Sony or Olympus offers, you can buy their cameras. Who cares where they are ranked? Apparently following the Camera sale standings is just another way internet forum users show how they have way too much time on their hands.
I couldn't agree more that people should buy and use the cameras that they like, and ignore rankings for those decisions.

Their relative performance, however, is a point of debate when the discussion devolves to, "Canon is making terrible decisions and losing customers because of it." The performance tells us whether it actually comes down to, "I'm mad at Canon because they're not making the stuff that I want."
 

jayphotoworks

EOS 80D
Aug 11, 2016
194
61
dak723 said:
jayphotoworks said:
neuroanatomist said:
jayphotoworks said:
In 2016, Japan was hit with a major earthquake. None of Canon's fabs were directly hit, but Sony's sensor fabs were directly affected. Olympus, Panasonic and many others utilize Sony sensors so this probably had a direct impact to their numbers both in 2016 and part of 2017. This is probably also reflected in the BCN awards for 2018 (which reports on CY2017 numbers). Canon gained mirrorless market share, but this may or may not be directly attributable to their push into mirrorless. I feel after 2018, we might have a better look into exactly where the trends are headed.
The quake was in April, and Sony indicated that the effects were over by the end of FY2016.

[quote author=Sony]
...we are forecasting a significant improvement in profitability for FY17 due to an increase in unit sales resulting from greater adoption of dual-lens cameras and growth in sales to Chinese manufacturers, as well as the absence of the impact of the Kumamoto Earthquakes.
Therefore, while 2016 was somewhat anamolous, 2017 likely represents a return to normal. Which, for Canon, means further growth in MILC market share.
The effects may have ended by the end of FY2016 to the impact on their revenue, but the real impact on market share can be seen in the numbers. Olympus went from 34.5% to 26.8% and Sony went from 24.8% to 17.9% in FY2016. They realized gains in FY2017, but was not able to make up the ground lost during FY2016. If products are heavily allocated or unavailable in retail, consumers likely went to an alternate choice.

If the earthquake was not a factor, Canon would likely still not be in second place and Olympus would likely still have a sizable advantage in first. Both Canon and Sony made similar gains in FY2017, but Sony dropped significantly the year prior due to the earthquake and put them in third place.

Let's see what happens in FY2018.
And why do you care whether Canon is #2 or #3 or even #5??

If you like what they offer, you can buy a Canon. If you like what Sony or Olympus offers, you can buy their cameras. Who cares where they are ranked? Apparently following the Camera sale standings is just another way internet forum users show how they have way too much time on their hands.
[/quote]

Maybe we do, or maybe its just a part of us that missed out when there was a chance to sit on the high school debating team. It isn't because we have too much time on our hands, it is because we managed our time effectively from the things that are important in our lives and now we have time to spare...
 

Tugela

EOS 6D MK II
Feb 12, 2014
855
13
Talys said:
alienman said:
Wow canon behind Olympus, I understand this is my opinion but i think sony makes better mirrorless cameras than both the a9 and riii are tough to deny. How soon will it be before we see a Full Frame mirrorless from canon?
The Sony A9 is $4500 and the Sony A7R3 is $3200. That's not where most of the mirrorless sales are. I would say that if they looked at $3,000+ full frame mirrorless bodies... Sony has the market cornered :)

A better argument is that the Sony A6300 is an excellent camera. Why doesn't it do better?

There are so many possibilities; who knows. One possible reason is that Sony lenses are very expensive and their selection of first party and especially third party accessories is only a tiny fraction of Canon's. Another possible reason, as I've mentioned before, is that Canon's success in mirrorless could be in part people who are already sold on Canon and EF, and want a small, secondary body that is compatible with their lens collection in a pinch.

If I ever bought mirrorless, this would be me, right up until the time that EVFs and battery life are as good as DSLRs for wildlife.

Another possibility -- I don't know how common this is, but some camera stores in my area refuse to demo Sony MILCs, especially the high end stuff (A7 and A9 bodies) and some even have a final sale policy on the full frame bodies (exchange for same model on DOA's only).


transpo1 said:
I say moniker because once people realize it has a 2.5x crop, they won’t be using it for 4K much.
Or, it could lead to a lot of EFM 11-22 sales :D And like the EFS 10-18, it's a very nice lens for a great price.
But the a7III is $2000 and it appears to be a VERY impressive camera. We can expect that technology to trickle down into 6000 line pretty soon as well, and that will be priced even lower. Stuff like the M50 is going to be competing against a crop sensor version of the a7III, and there is no question which camera will win that battle. With current specs the M series are going to be king of the bargain bin, but not much else.
 

Tugela

EOS 6D MK II
Feb 12, 2014
855
13
eninja said:
IglooEater said:
Seems that canon is acting very late if they're having to respond to a market that is already beginning to shift. And if their dslr lineup is to be cannibalized it would seem better that it would be so by a Canon product than that of a competitor. It's as if it took until recently to even recognize that mirrorless was going to be a thing.
To give them credit, they seem to have caught on, and I expect to seem a great FullFrame mirrorless sometime :)
I think Canon intentionally playing dumb. They knew this is coming the whole time.
The problem Canon has is that the underlying electronics in the camera is an area where they can't compete against the likes of Sony and Panasonic. That is why they are sticking so avidly to DSLRs, since those are less reliant on advances in electronics than MILCs. It is in Canon's interests to market that DSLRs are inherently superior, but they will only be able to do that for so long before the dam breaks and the market shifts.

I think that dam is very close to breaking now, and we are going to see a seismic shift in the market soon.
 

CanonFanBoy

Really O.K. Boomer
Jan 28, 2015
4,701
2,621
Irving, Texas
Wolfloid said:
It is a pity that they are bleeding sales to Sony.
The real pity is that many times people just make up "facts" because it fits better with their world view. The truth sometimes doesn't matter.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,305
495
Tugela said:
The problem Canon has is that the underlying electronics in the camera is an area where they can't compete against the likes of Sony and Panasonic.
Anything to support that?
Panasonic, Oly and Sony can do what they do by virtue of being mirrorless - Canon have stuch with DSLR so we don't really know what they are capable of.


Tugela said:
I think that dam is very close to breaking now, and we are going to see a seismic shift in the market soon.
I recall people saying that 5 years ago.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,639
2,153
Mikehit said:
Tugela said:
I think that dam is very close to breaking now, and we are going to see a seismic shift in the market soon.
I recall people saying that 5 years ago.
Tugela thought that all Canon cameras with Digic 7 would shoot 4K, until they didn't. You need to take his statements with a grain of salt. Preferably more than a grain.

 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,062
341
Vancouver, BC
Tugela said:
But the a7III is $2000 and it appears to be a VERY impressive camera. We can expect that technology to trickle down into 6000 line pretty soon as well, and that will be priced even lower. Stuff like the M50 is going to be competing against a crop sensor version of the a7III, and there is no question which camera will win that battle. With current specs the M series are going to be king of the bargain bin, but not much else.
The a7III is not a competitor to any Canon mirrorless, much less the M50 -- it's nearly 3 times the price and it's full frame. It's a competitor to the 6D2 on one hand, and more so, to the A7R3 on the other.

In reality, there are few people who want to spend $2,000 on a camera body. The market for $500-$1,000 camera bodies is much larger. And by the way, a $740 camera body is not a "bargain bin camera" in any market.

The competitors to the M50/M5/M6 would be the a6300 and a5100. And neither are those "bargain bin" ILCs. With even a couple of kit lenses, we're talking cameras that surpass $1,000, which isn't exactly pocket change for most hobbyists.

Really, all of them are amazing tools that can produce award-winning photography and a reflection of a mature field of optics and sensor technology. To deride any of them or to view them with contempt is more a reflection of yourself than anything else.
 

eninja

EOS RP
Dec 17, 2012
277
1
Tugela said:
eninja said:
IglooEater said:
Seems that canon is acting very late if they're having to respond to a market that is already beginning to shift. And if their dslr lineup is to be cannibalized it would seem better that it would be so by a Canon product than that of a competitor. It's as if it took until recently to even recognize that mirrorless was going to be a thing.
To give them credit, they seem to have caught on, and I expect to seem a great FullFrame mirrorless sometime :)
I think Canon intentionally playing dumb. They knew this is coming the whole time.
The problem Canon has is that the underlying electronics in the camera is an area where they can't compete against the likes of Sony and Panasonic. That is why they are sticking so avidly to DSLRs, since those are less reliant on advances in electronics than MILCs. It is in Canon's interests to market that DSLRs are inherently superior, but they will only be able to do that for so long before the dam breaks and the market shifts.

I think that dam is very close to breaking now, and we are going to see a seismic shift in the market soon.
Didn't you know that canon designs they own processor? and image sensor? Canon's products are pure image related, their money are all in making imaging devices. What is hard to do electronics are in MILC that are not found in DSLR? Isn't it DSLR >> MILC - DSLR electronics is Superior to MILC.
 

transpo1

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 12, 2011
753
103
rrcphoto said:
transpo1 said:
mistaspeedy said:
"The Japanese market for interchangeable lens cameras recorded a 10.1% drop in sales for SLRs last year while mirrorless varieties soared 29.2%"

That's the only way you can get Canon to move.... they smelled the money and want their share of it... totally understandable.
Yup. They finally realized what we 4Kers have been saying all along- cannibalize yourself or others will do it for you.
sure that's why canon's been #2 for two years in a row in japan and well ahead of panasonic who's the darling of 4k and somewhere 4th or worse.
Hey, I’m not saying they moved only because of 4K but it’s certainly one of the factors if they’re including it in the M50.

In fact, if you read the post, it’s essentially about launching a “strategic” new camera at the risk of cannibalizing themselves. So pretty much spot on.

It’s a strategic move to play defense to MILC competitors (whom they must fear) and an offensive move to snap up money.

Yes, with 4K as a big factor.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,305
495
transpo1 said:
Hey, I’m not saying they moved only because of 4K but it’s certainly one of the factors if they’re including it in the M50.

In fact, if you read the post, it’s essentially about launching a “strategic” new camera at the risk of cannibalizing themselves. So pretty much spot on.

It’s a strategic move to play defense to MILC competitors (whom they must fear) and an offensive move to snap up money.

Yes, with 4K as a big factor.
Maybe I missed it, but I am not sure what they mean by 'strategic'. This can mean one of two things:
- a spoiler to make anyone thinking about moving to Sony think twice about it
- a marker round which future mirrorless will be developed

Canon may in the short term concentrate on DSLR for their high end models (7D/5D/1Dx) and mirrorless a level below that.