Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless

transpo1

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 12, 2011
753
103
Mikehit said:
transpo1 said:
Hey, I’m not saying they moved only because of 4K but it’s certainly one of the factors if they’re including it in the M50.

In fact, if you read the post, it’s essentially about launching a “strategic” new camera at the risk of cannibalizing themselves. So pretty much spot on.

It’s a strategic move to play defense to MILC competitors (whom they must fear) and an offensive move to snap up money.

Yes, with 4K as a big factor.
Maybe I missed it, but I am not sure what they mean by 'strategic'. This can mean one of two things:
- a spoiler to make anyone thinking about moving to Sony think twice about it
- a marker round which future mirrorless will be developed

Canon may in the short term concentrate on DSLR for their high end models (7D/5D/1Dx) and mirrorless a level below that.
Yup. If you read between the lines, they are saying, “we are releasing a strategic new camera at the risk of cannibalizing ourselves so that others do not cannibalize us instead.”

Even though they are #2 (by some accounts) in MILC- and some people make lots of noise about that- it’s clear this is what’s happening- they are scared of not being #2 and want to cash in on the mirrorless wave.
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,301
539
transpo1 said:
Mikehit said:
transpo1 said:
Hey, I’m not saying they moved only because of 4K but it’s certainly one of the factors if they’re including it in the M50.

In fact, if you read the post, it’s essentially about launching a “strategic” new camera at the risk of cannibalizing themselves. So pretty much spot on.

It’s a strategic move to play defense to MILC competitors (whom they must fear) and an offensive move to snap up money.

Yes, with 4K as a big factor.
Maybe I missed it, but I am not sure what they mean by 'strategic'. This can mean one of two things:
- a spoiler to make anyone thinking about moving to Sony think twice about it
- a marker round which future mirrorless will be developed

Canon may in the short term concentrate on DSLR for their high end models (7D/5D/1Dx) and mirrorless a level below that.
Yup. If you read between the lines, they are saying, “we are releasing a strategic new camera at the risk of cannibalizing ourselves so that others do not cannibalize us instead.”

Even though they are #2 (by some accounts) in MILC- and some people make lots of noise about that- it’s clear this is what’s happening- they are scared of not being #2 and want to cash in on the mirrorless wave.
Well, they released the M50 because they thought it was a good idea. I don't know that means "they" are scared of anything. Being scared and wanting to cash in are two different things.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,308
498
transpo1 said:
Yup. If you read between the lines, they are saying, “we are releasing a strategic new camera at the risk of cannibalizing ourselves so that others do not cannibalize us instead.”

Even though they are #2 (by some accounts) in MILC- and some people make lots of noise about that- it’s clear this is what’s happening- they are scared of not being #2 and want to cash in on the mirrorless wave.
You know what they say about making assumptions...
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,062
341
Vancouver, BC
transpo1 said:
Even though they are #2 (by some accounts) in MILC- and some people make lots of noise about that- it’s clear this is what’s happening- they are scared of not being #2 and want to cash in on the mirrorless wave.
Since they were #3 just a couple of years and #4 or lower not long before that... perhaps they want to cash in on the mirrorless wave to be #1.
 

transpo1

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 12, 2011
753
103
BillB said:
transpo1 said:
Mikehit said:
transpo1 said:
Hey, I’m not saying they moved only because of 4K but it’s certainly one of the factors if they’re including it in the M50.

In fact, if you read the post, it’s essentially about launching a “strategic” new camera at the risk of cannibalizing themselves. So pretty much spot on.

It’s a strategic move to play defense to MILC competitors (whom they must fear) and an offensive move to snap up money.

Yes, with 4K as a big factor.
Maybe I missed it, but I am not sure what they mean by 'strategic'. This can mean one of two things:
- a spoiler to make anyone thinking about moving to Sony think twice about it
- a marker round which future mirrorless will be developed

Canon may in the short term concentrate on DSLR for their high end models (7D/5D/1Dx) and mirrorless a level below that.
Yup. If you read between the lines, they are saying, “we are releasing a strategic new camera at the risk of cannibalizing ourselves so that others do not cannibalize us instead.”

Even though they are #2 (by some accounts) in MILC- and some people make lots of noise about that- it’s clear this is what’s happening- they are scared of not being #2 and want to cash in on the mirrorless wave.
Well, they released the M50 because they thought it was a good idea. I don't know that means "they" are scared of anything. Being scared and wanting to cash in are two different things.
I think the statement is pretty clear. We all know Canon- they have historically NOT cannibalized their DSLRs and now they’re willing to risk it. Why? Because someone else might do it. If there’s money on the table, they want to grab it, and that means it’s up for grabs which means they realize the possibility is there for someone else to grab it- hence, fear of not getting the money ;)
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,062
341
Vancouver, BC
transpo1 said:
I think the statement is pretty clear. We all know Canon- they have historically NOT cannibalized their DSLRs and now they’re willing to risk it. Why? Because someone else might do it. If there’s money on the table, they want to grab it, and that means it’s up for grabs which means they realize the possibility is there for someone else to grab it- hence, fear of not getting the money ;)
What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?

Which APSC video-centric DSLRs are there? Which 4k FF DSLRs would someone not buy, and purchase the M50 instead?
 

transpo1

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 12, 2011
753
103
Talys said:
transpo1 said:
I think the statement is pretty clear. We all know Canon- they have historically NOT cannibalized their DSLRs and now they’re willing to risk it. Why? Because someone else might do it. If there’s money on the table, they want to grab it, and that means it’s up for grabs which means they realize the possibility is there for someone else to grab it- hence, fear of not getting the money ;)
What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?

Which APSC video-centric DSLRs are there? Which 4k FF DSLRs would someone not buy, and purchase the M50 instead?
Again, read the statement. They used the term cannibalization.
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,301
539
transpo1 said:
BillB said:
transpo1 said:
Mikehit said:
transpo1 said:
Hey, I’m not saying they moved only because of 4K but it’s certainly one of the factors if they’re including it in the M50.

In fact, if you read the post, it’s essentially about launching a “strategic” new camera at the risk of cannibalizing themselves. So pretty much spot on.

It’s a strategic move to play defense to MILC competitors (whom they must fear) and an offensive move to snap up money.

Yes, with 4K as a big factor.
Maybe I missed it, but I am not sure what they mean by 'strategic'. This can mean one of two things:
- a spoiler to make anyone thinking about moving to Sony think twice about it
- a marker round which future mirrorless will be developed

Canon may in the short term concentrate on DSLR for their high end models (7D/5D/1Dx) and mirrorless a level below that.
Yup. If you read between the lines, they are saying, “we are releasing a strategic new camera at the risk of cannibalizing ourselves so that others do not cannibalize us instead.”

Even though they are #2 (by some accounts) in MILC- and some people make lots of noise about that- it’s clear this is what’s happening- they are scared of not being #2 and want to cash in on the mirrorless wave.
Well, they released the M50 because they thought it was a good idea. I don't know that means "they" are scared of anything. Being scared and wanting to cash in are two different things.
I think the statement is pretty clear. We all know Canon- they have historically NOT cannibalized their DSLRs and now they’re willing to risk it. Why? Because someone else might do it. If there’s money on the table, they want to grab it, and that means it’s up for grabs which means they realize the possibility is there for someone else to grab it- hence, fear of not getting the money ;)
A key piece of the M50 technology seems to be the Digic 8, and the design of the Digic 8 would have begun several years ago. So, the M50 is the result a technology development strategy that has been underway for a while. It doesn't seem to me that Canon is running scared. It is just putting out new products, like it always has.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,308
498
BillB said:
A key piece of the M50 technology seems to be the Digic 8, and the design of the Digic 8 would have begun several years ago. So, the M50 is the result a technology development strategy that has been underway for a while. It doesn't seem to me that Canon is running scared. It is just putting out new products, like it always has.
But that does not fit the meme that Canon does not innovate any more and only responds. It is therefore incorrect.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,062
341
Vancouver, BC
transpo1 said:
Talys said:
transpo1 said:
I think the statement is pretty clear. We all know Canon- they have historically NOT cannibalized their DSLRs and now they’re willing to risk it. Why? Because someone else might do it. If there’s money on the table, they want to grab it, and that means it’s up for grabs which means they realize the possibility is there for someone else to grab it- hence, fear of not getting the money ;)
What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?

Which APSC video-centric DSLRs are there? Which 4k FF DSLRs would someone not buy, and purchase the M50 instead?
Again, read the statement. They used the term cannibalization.
Except "they" isn't Canon, and it isnt' a statement. It's the Nikkei Asian Review, and the opinion of a writer there. I'm pretty sure that Canon would express their viewpoint differently :)

I would be shocked if Canon actually thought, "we'd rather sell $500 entry level DSLR kits instead of $900 entry level mirrorless kits".
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,441
1,266
Talys said:
What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?

Which APSC video-centric DSLRs are there?

Which 4k FF DSLRs would someone not buy, and purchase the M50 instead?
I hear you, but I think you are reading the 'Canon is prepared to cannibalize SLRs' too specifically around the M50 and 4k. (In the near term, the 80D --> 90D would surely answer your 2nd and 3rd questions above.)

I think Canon was talking bigger than this present moment. I could be wrong, but I believe the press release / interview (whatever it was) was more about Canon scaling up and expanding its mirrorless ambitions beyond EOS M -- flagged by some folks here as more of a PowerShot-based platform -- into the meat and potatoes elements of their SLR portfolio.

Mirrorless products with similar footprint/controls/interface to SLRs are coming, and they'll be sold side by side against their SLR counterparts. That's the cannibalization (I think) they were referring to.

A mirrorless Rebel is not EOS M (and forget EF-S vs. EF-M for a minute, I am talking about the name and the company's backing of that name). Once a mirrorless product gets the Rebel moniker and is pushed with the might of the fully operational battlestation that is Canon, it will mark the beginning of the end of mirrors for Canon's volume/dollars workhorse.

- A
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,062
341
Vancouver, BC
ahsanford said:
Talys said:
What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?

Which APSC video-centric DSLRs are there?

Which 4k FF DSLRs would someone not buy, and purchase the M50 instead?
I hear you, but I think you are reading the 'Canon is prepared to cannibalize SLRs' too specifically around the M50 and 4k. (In the near term, the 80D --> 90D would surely answer your 2nd and 3rd questions above.)

I think Canon was talking bigger than this present moment. I could be wrong, but I believe the press release / interview (whatever it was) was more about Canon scaling up and expanding its mirrorless ambitions beyond EOS M -- flagged by some folks here as more of a PowerShot-based platform -- into the meat and potatoes elements of their SLR portfolio.

Mirrorless products with similar footprint/controls/interface to SLRs are coming, and they'll be sold side by side against their SLR counterparts. That's the cannibalization (I think) they were referring to.

A mirrorless Rebel is not EOS M (and forget EF-S vs. EF-M for a minute, I am talking about the name and the company's backing of that name). Once a mirrorless product gets the Rebel moniker and is pushed with the might of the fully operational battlestation that is Canon, it will mark the beginning of the end of mirrors for Canon's volume/dollars workhorse.

- A
Oh, I didn't really read it that way, but sure, I'll buy into some of that (minus the part that it wasn't actually Canon using the phrase cannibalize). I'll definitely buy into the last conclusion, whether or not it's called a Rebel, that in the end, mirrorless will dominate volume/dollars workhorse, simply because they are long-term cheaper to make, have a gentler learning curve, and allow for a smaller body.

Cannibalization usually refers to a cheaper unit stealing sales from a more expensive one, because it can do all the important stuff for less money. In Canon's case, I suspect it will be the opposite. Alhough there will certainly be MILCs that are cheap, for a long time, th price point will be higher for Canon MILCs than equivalent in class Canon DSLRs.

So, though they'd unlikely use either term publically, I think the internal term is upselling :)

I don't think Canon 'fears cannibalzation' as it does 'lower profits'.
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,301
539
ahsanford said:
Talys said:
What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?

Which APSC video-centric DSLRs are there?

Which 4k FF DSLRs would someone not buy, and purchase the M50 instead?
I hear you, but I think you are reading the 'Canon is prepared to cannibalize SLRs' too specifically around the M50 and 4k. (In the near term, the 80D --> 90D would surely answer your 2nd and 3rd questions above.)

I think Canon was talking bigger than this present moment. I could be wrong, but I believe the press release / interview (whatever it was) was more about Canon scaling up and expanding its mirrorless ambitions beyond EOS M -- flagged by some folks here as more of a PowerShot-based platform -- into the meat and potatoes elements of their SLR portfolio.

Mirrorless products with similar footprint/controls/interface to SLRs are coming, and they'll be sold side by side against their SLR counterparts. That's the cannibalization (I think) they were referring to.

A mirrorless Rebel is not EOS M (and forget EF-S vs. EF-M for a minute, I am talking about the name and the company's backing of that name). Once a mirrorless product gets the Rebel moniker and is pushed with the might of the fully operational battlestation that is Canon, it will mark the beginning of the end of mirrors for Canon's volume/dollars workhorse.

- A
Canon bet on dual pixel sensor technology quite a while ago, and the big payoffs from dual pixel technology are in Liveview/mirrorless cameras, especially for video. I have no idea how Canon sees the future mix of DSLR and mirrorless, but it seems clear that Canon has been laying the foundation for a serious mirrorless presence for several years. One of the wild cards in the future mix between DSLR and mirrorless may be how important video is to people buying cameras, especially in the aps-c market. If video is a big deal for a lot of people, then I think that the switchover to mirrorless will be pretty fast.

At the FF level, I am not so sure. Video doesn't seem to be part of Nikon's gameplan, and the FF Canon DSLR's are ok for video. So maybe the big action will be at the aps-c level.
 

ewg963

EOS RP
Mar 2, 2012
355
0
Meriden CT USA
alienman said:
Wow canon behind Olympus, I understand this is my opinion but i think sony makes better mirrorless cameras than both the a9 and riii are tough to deny. How soon will it be before we see a Full Frame mirrorless from canon?
I hope sooner than later because I've been waiting for a FF mirrorless from Canon for a while
 

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
584
12
Video seems to be good until they start moving camera. I think 1 to 1 pixel crop for 4k produces good quality for the targeted users. But no dpaf is a downer. I wish, they will solve one of this problem (crop or dpaf) at least instead of punishing users twice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he6McUd6W1c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OskvGAj9p1Q
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,062
341
Vancouver, BC
ritholtz said:
Video seems to be good until they start moving camera. I think 1 to 1 pixel crop for 4k produces good quality for the targeted users. But no dpaf is a downer. I wish, they will solve one of this problem (crop or dpaf) at least instead of punishing users twice.
I agree that no DPAF is a downer. But this is a $740 camera. I think it's fine in that context, because you must expect to bump into some limitations at that price.

I would say the two downers are no Eye AF in AI Servo mode (I think) and no DPAF in 4k video mode.

But both would be good incentives to buy the next version up. Also, something to let Sony come in with a competitor at that price point -- as a6300/a6500 are much more expensive. And well, Nikon needs to get their act together for live view AF before they're part of that discussion.
 

C-A430

Powershot C-A430
Apr 16, 2016
42
0
Europe
Wolfloid said:
I would be very happy to purchase the M50 except for the dearth of EF-M glass. everything starting at f/4 or f/3.5 and being variable aperture really doesn't cut it. yes, I know there's a single "fast" prime ... which is really a 35 f/2.8 equivalent so not that fast either.
Yes, very poor lens selection, poor battery life, poor buffer seem to be holding Canon back in the mid-range, and of course, nothing in full frame. I am a Canon user, like the DSLR that I have, from a period when Canon was innovating (5D II), have a full complement of lenses, and yet I am seriously thinking of going with the Sony A7rIII or the new A7III. Even the Fuji XT2, with its excellent lens range is much more tempting than anything from Canon now. It is a pity that they are bleeding sales to Sony.
Fuji X has wide selections of lenses, but not excellent lenses. Fuji X lenses are overpriced and often have serious optical flaws. Sorry for replaying to a 4 day old post, but this is a statement that I had to comment on.

Fujifilm XF 50-140mm f2.8 OIS costs $1,600 and I HATE its "look". It is not a bad lens, but its waaay overpriced and its not a portraiture lens. Sigma 50-100 f/1.8 is still the only portraiture zoom for crop cameras. It is much cheaper, faster and has more pleasant "look", especially for portraits. Same goes for other Fuji lenses. If you buy Canon 80D+FF lenses and FUJI T20+its native lenses with comparable price, Canon will produce better images although it uses half-native lenses (same mount but only 40% of the image circle).

Also X-trans sensors give weird output. Fujis great marketing motto of no moire, no color distortion, no AA-filter and film-like image is a huge lie. They have sharpness like AA-filtered bayer sensors and suffer moire (almost?) as much as AA-less bayer sensors. Also, film-like comes from JPEG processing, there is nothing about x-trans raw files that is more film like than same CMOS tech in Nikon APS-C.

How can I trust you anything if your motto is a lie? What if it turned out that GH5 does line skipping? Or that 1DX misses focus 20% and dies from light rain?

I have a hard-on for a SEVERAL Fuji ideas - CMOS pattern bigger than bayer-2x2, 16-50mm kit, another, better f/2.8-4 kit, APS-C + mirrorless, company that has only ONE interchangeable-lens line-up (no FF). Everyone (on CR) wants Canon to do FF MILC. Thats the last thing I want them to do. I am even grateful that they decided to push one APS-C ahead of the other (ef-M gets more lenses than ef-S)
 

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
584
12
Talys said:
ritholtz said:
Video seems to be good until they start moving camera. I think 1 to 1 pixel crop for 4k produces good quality for the targeted users. But no dpaf is a downer. I wish, they will solve one of this problem (crop or dpaf) at least instead of punishing users twice.
I agree that no DPAF is a downer. But this is a $740 camera. I think it's fine in that context, because you must expect to bump into some limitations at that price.

I would say the two downers are no Eye AF in AI Servo mode (I think) and no DPAF in 4k video mode.

But both would be good incentives to buy the next version up. Also, something to let Sony come in with a competitor at that price point -- as a6300/a6500 are much more expensive. And well, Nikon needs to get their act together for live view AF before they're part of that discussion.
For me only thing missing is DPAF. I can live with the 4k crop. I have used crop (digital zoom) feature with my SL2. It gave me reach to shoot some stage play. Unfortunately there is no dpaf when this functionality used with SL2 as well.
 

C-A430

Powershot C-A430
Apr 16, 2016
42
0
Europe
transpo1 said:
Talys said:
transpo1 said:
I think the statement is pretty clear. We all know Canon- they have historically NOT cannibalized their DSLRs and now they’re willing to risk it. Why? Because someone else might do it. If there’s money on the table, they want to grab it, and that means it’s up for grabs which means they realize the possibility is there for someone else to grab it- hence, fear of not getting the money ;)
What DSLR does the M50 cannibalize sales of?

Which APSC video-centric DSLRs are there? Which 4k FF DSLRs would someone not buy, and purchase the M50 instead?
Again, read the statement. They used the term cannibalization.
That is a catch isn't it? Article says it as if they are quoting Canon, but they haven't actually quoted them. Regardless weather you believe Canon is nerfing their products you know that they would never say it. No marketing executive would use the word cannibalize. Headline is "Canon the king of DSLR", but between the lines they introduced the false confirmation that Canon under-equips their products for marketing reasons.

BTW, Sony is known for shady marketing practices (in and outside photography world), and it is Canon that is known for ease-of-use, reliability, durability and customer support. Sony is known for good things too, but when a Sony fanboy calls out Canon for shady marketing practices...
 

C-A430

Powershot C-A430
Apr 16, 2016
42
0
Europe
ritholtz said:
Talys said:
ritholtz said:
Video seems to be good until they start moving camera. I think 1 to 1 pixel crop for 4k produces good quality for the targeted users. But no dpaf is a downer. I wish, they will solve one of this problem (crop or dpaf) at least instead of punishing users twice.
I agree that no DPAF is a downer. But this is a $740 camera. I think it's fine in that context, because you must expect to bump into some limitations at that price.

I would say the two downers are no Eye AF in AI Servo mode (I think) and no DPAF in 4k video mode.

But both would be good incentives to buy the next version up. Also, something to let Sony come in with a competitor at that price point -- as a6300/a6500 are much more expensive. And well, Nikon needs to get their act together for live view AF before they're part of that discussion.
For me only thing missing is DPAF. I can live with the 4k crop. I have used crop (digital zoom) feature with my SL2. It gave me reach to shoot some stage play. Unfortunately there is no dpaf when this functionality used with SL2 as well.
Why is no DPAF an issue? M50 is using phase detection AF in 4K, just as α6500. In 1080p it has DPAF, something no one has matched yet.

Sony and Panasonic NEVER use DPAF. Am I missing something?