Canon Q2 2019 financial results released

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,153
390
If Canon has been ‘pushing customers towards the competition for years’, how is it that Canon gained market share over those years? It’s a pity when people make claims that contradict facts and reality, they just end up sounding foolish.

Equally foolish is being a ‘loyal client’ of any large company. Canon does not reciprocate — they don’t give a damn about you, personally. You’re just a number to them, if that. If the reason you continue to use Canon is brand loyalty, you should switch. Now.

Of course, maybe you would rather complain but not take action. That seems to be pretty common around here.
So Canon can't even push customers towards the completion very well.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: stevelee

PGSanta

EOS 80D
Sep 5, 2018
140
105
San Diego, CA
If Canon has been ‘pushing customers towards the competition for years’, how is it that Canon gained market share over those years? It’s a pity when people make claims that contradict facts and reality, they just end up sounding foolish.

Equally foolish is being a ‘loyal client’ of any large company. Canon does not reciprocate — they don’t give a damn about you, personally. You’re just a number to them, if that. If the reason you continue to use Canon is brand loyalty, you should switch. Now.

Of course, maybe you would rather complain but not take action. That seems to be pretty common around here.
Canon is gaining market share by one metric, and one alone: total unit sales.

In a declining, mature market like the ILC market, there’s a lot of room to argue that unit sales are of secondary importance relative to the share a company enjoys of revenue and profit. In both of those later metrics, Canon’s market share has declined, not gained ground.

Just because Canon sells a bunch of hot garbage at Costco and Walmart doesn’t mean it’s getting a leg up on the competition.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RayL

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,396
775
Canon is gaining market share by one metric, and one alone: total unit sales.

In a declining, mature market like the ILC market, there’s a lot of room to argue that unit sales are of secondary importance relative to the share a company enjoys of revenue and profit.
So, you didn't notice that Canon's camera unit sales are dropping much faster than Canon's camera revenues?

In both of those later metrics, Canon’s market share has declined, not gained ground.
There is no such thing as "market share in profits". As to market share in revenues, [citation needed]

Just because Canon sells a bunch of hot garbage at Costco and Walmart
Why do you call it "garbage"?

doesn’t mean it’s getting a leg up on the competition.
Your definition of "getting a leg up" is likely different from what Costco and Walmart use.
 

PGSanta

EOS 80D
Sep 5, 2018
140
105
San Diego, CA
So, you didn't notice that Canon's camera unit sales are dropping much faster than Canon's camera revenues?
How does this relate to what I stated?

There is no such thing as "market share in profits". As to market share in revenues, [citation needed]
Read as market share of revenues and profit margin.

Why do you call it "garbage"?
Because enthusiasts would never bother with it; it's not targeted to us.


Your definition of "getting a leg up" is likely different from what Costco and Walmart use.
I would hope so.
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,396
775

transpo1

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 12, 2011
748
96
In other words, among other things- they are seeing very steep competition in FF MILC sales.
 

David - Sydney

EOS T7i
Dec 7, 2014
55
20
www.flickr.com
This would imply a 2 year refresh rate on the R and RP. Personally, I am hoping for a 5DV, but I could see this being overall correct, but suspect the 5D replacement would be numbered, move up market (ie. more expensive) and Canon continues to sell the R at ~$2k. So, 2 up market R bodies, the high MP and the 5D series replacement in 2020. For differentiating, how about 75 MP with something like 5 fps for $3,200 settle in price at $3k, 45 MP with 8 fps for $3,000 settle in price around $2700, and then the R at 30 MP for sub(not a fan of MP wars, but easy differentiation).

I'd still like to see a 5DV. Give me ~30 MP, 10-12 fps, BSI sensor (just to keep up, really isn't needed), wider spread of AF points (most appealing aspect of mirrorless to me), a few other "20% improvements that add up" and take my money.
+1 for a 5Dv.... weather sealing, weight balance / ergonomics, dual card, battery life general purpose workhorse. I wonder what it would take for Canon to bring out a replacement? I would imagine that there is a ongoing demand for a replacement for the 5Div with a new sensor/AF/MP bump/ fps bump/dynamic range bump. Could a R version provide a 5D size/ergnomics with a RF mount? It seems that the consensus is a high res and a sports model that I can see.
 
Last edited:

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,544
768
I read that price competition is increasing for DSLR's. Basically, to me that says that everyone is lowering prices because they aren't selling well. Lower prices means less or no profit, so they are hoping on selling profitable lenses and accessories.

If DSLR's are not selling at profitable prices, they will go away. Certainly not soon, but fade away and we won't see big $ investments in new models, but will see slightly improved features or addition of bundled accessories with a new model number.

Right now, consumers are showing a strong interest in mirrorless, and they probably cost less to make and support since they should be more reliable over time. There is a bigger profit in mirrorless cameras, and even bigger in the lenses, so expect Canon to push them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: docsmith and pj1974

Woody

EOS 6D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
1,139
41
In a declining, mature market like the ILC market, there’s a lot of room to argue that unit sales are of secondary importance relative to the share a company enjoys of revenue and profit. In both of those later metrics, Canon’s market share has declined, not gained ground.
Spoken like a true Sony fanboy.

Canon just launched their FF MILC line. Wait for the line to gain traction, then watch Sony decline... This is not new. Canon has done this many many times in the past.

"Canon — Initially a follower in film SLR, eventually a leader in autofocus SLR; then a follower in DSLR that again flipped to leader; then a follower in mirrorless which may be flipping to leader. Sense a pattern there? Canon isn't generally the first mover, but when they move they move. I think that anyone who underestimates the EOS M and whatever full frame mirrorless Canon decides to produce needs to rethink their position. I'd call Canon opportunistic and well managed. I wouldn't call them the innovator that's going to trigger the next changeover in camera designs by leading the way, but they are quick to understand when that changeover is occurring. Follower that becomes a Winner."
- http://dslrbodies.com/newsviews/who-leads-who-follows-who.html
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ah-Keong

MartinF.

EOS 6D, 5D and some good EF lenses. DPP4 user
Feb 2, 2016
65
40
Denmark
This is my own quick guess as to what may happen to the Canon camera timeline over the next year or two

I am not sure about no 5D mkV. (at least I do not hope you are right).

With the launch of EF lenses in 2018 - same year as the RF mount launch - I would guess that Canon it not quite over with DSLR's yet.
Well Mirrorless are probably cheaper to produce, but the 1DX series, and 5D series are probably cashcows in each segment. Same reason we now see a 90D - the XX series is also a Cashcow in that segment.

But after 5DmkV in 2020 og 2021 - then it is probably also the end of the DSLR era.....
 

jayphotoworks

EOS 80D
Aug 11, 2016
189
57
Spoken like a true Sony fanboy.

Canon just launched their FF MILC line. Wait for the line to gain traction, then watch Sony decline... This is not new. Canon has done this many many times in the past.

"Canon — Initially a follower in film SLR, eventually a leader in autofocus SLR; then a follower in DSLR that again flipped to leader; then a follower in mirrorless which may be flipping to leader. Sense a pattern there? Canon isn't generally the first mover, but when they move they move. I think that anyone who underestimates the EOS M and whatever full frame mirrorless Canon decides to produce needs to rethink their position. I'd call Canon opportunistic and well managed. I wouldn't call them the innovator that's going to trigger the next changeover in camera designs by leading the way, but they are quick to understand when that changeover is occurring. Follower that becomes a Winner."
- http://dslrbodies.com/newsviews/who-leads-who-follows-who.html
If you look at the data, Canon has increased market share, but actually lost quite a bit of camera sales value. They are moving a ton of low cost entry level bodies and those mainstream entry-level consumers that don't care about the removal of 24p, IBIS, 4K, DR, etc. also don't care about carrying a camera at all. Sony OTOH has lost market share, but significantly increased their camera sales value which reflects on them moving a higher quantity of premium priced products. In addition, in May, the A7III's marketshare was more than 40%+ which was more than both the R/RP combined by a large margin. Further in July, Sony is now shown to be at 30% overall MILC marketshare in Japan compared to Canon's 31%. The A7III was still in the top 10 BCN list which is more than 3x the cost of its entry level peers. For a product that gets repeated here for having bad support, bad ergonomics, bad color science, and bad weather sealing, it still manages to place in a top 10 list almost always dominated with entry level systems. Where are the equivalent Canon systems in this list? If you look at all of the data in aggregate, just how well is Canon doing? How sustainable is selling more entry level systems in a dying entry level market?

I think when someone posts here saying, "Canon should offer feature X..." and it gets quickly discounted because it doesn't represent the market as a whole.. they should really think about that. Perhaps Canon could have gotten away with it in the past, but as that entry level market shrinks.. , who the heck else would they cater to? I think if Canon eventually wipes the floor with Sony, it will most certainly be on the merits of them upping their game, matching their spec sheets and performance rather than play this endless cycle of disappointment interspersed with "well.. we gained market share!" game.
 

12Broncos

EOS M50
Jul 20, 2019
28
32
If Canon has been ‘pushing customers towards the competition for years’, how is it that Canon gained market share over those years? It’s a pity when people make claims that contradict facts and reality, they just end up sounding foolish.

Equally foolish is being a ‘loyal client’ of any large company. Canon does not reciprocate — they don’t give a damn about you, personally. You’re just a number to them, if that. If the reason you continue to use Canon is brand loyalty, you should switch. Now.

Of course, maybe you would rather complain but not take action. That seems to be pretty common around here.
Competition is good for the customer. Right now, Sony is the only system I could to go with, they have the 'Mirrorless Cameras right now, with 'Pro features'. There is no competition, it's one and done. Frankly, I hate that reality. All it would take to erase that is an announcement from Canon, preferably within the next two months.
 

Tugela

EOS 6D MK II
Feb 12, 2014
855
13
Yes, Canon by all means should totally and immediately abandon over half of the global ILC market.

Let me guess, you found an MBA in a box of Cracker Jacks.
You do realize that DSLR shipments this year are 65% of what they were compared to the previous year right? And that is only going to get worse in following years.

Canon sure as hell knows that, even if you don't.
 

sfeinsmith

EOS M50
Aug 23, 2016
25
17
I am not surprised about Canon's second report with a 22% loss. In the article as follows, we successively launched strategic full-frame models into the mirrorless camera market from the second half of last year. Unfortunately, this is not true because Canon has a lot of issues with R series cameras along with a problem with RF lenses. It was a tremendous mistake to abandoned 5D series included high resolution, 5DS R for mirrorless. The incident in 1987, Canon made incident caused customers into a very angry to learn that they rid very reliable lenses, R/FL/FD and FDn unexpectedly. They changed the flange focal distance for FD and EF increased by 2mm to seek incompatible each other. I was right as Canon is going to rid off EF lenses and force everyone to use RF lenses with an enormous cost. We are NOT interested in mirrorless with RF lenses at all. Nikon also loses during the 2nd financial report because of their Z series with problems as much as like Canon.

My friend did not take my advice not to buy a mirrorless camera and lenses. A week later, he was unhappy and returned to the dealer for a refund. He realized the mirrorless camera has no match with his EOS 5D Mark II. His pictures were ruined by flaw hardware in the memory card situation. Two days later, his RF lens stopped working then he used his EF lenses with an adapter to finish his job.

Canon and Nikon are in trouble in selling. I will not surprise they will join Minolta, Konica, and several others by next year. Sony is the winner will be a total mess up because of professional photographers have to use more expensive such as Lecia, Hasselblad, Fujifilm, and others for their business as much as like myself.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Viggo

Tugela

EOS 6D MK II
Feb 12, 2014
855
13
So, you didn't notice that Canon's camera unit sales are dropping much faster than Canon's camera revenues?


There is no such thing as "market share in profits". As to market share in revenues, [citation needed]


Why do you call it "garbage"?


Your definition of "getting a leg up" is likely different from what Costco and Walmart use.
Actually, their unit sales are staying more or less constant, unlike most other camera companies. It is their revenue that is dropping like a rock. Most other companies are losing revenue as well, the only company with a big increase in revenue is Sony (even though they sold fewer units over 2018).
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,615
2,084
You do realize that DSLR shipments this year are 65% of what they were compared to the previous year right? And that is only going to get worse in following years.

Canon sure as hell knows that, even if you don't.
MILC shipments are 87% of last year at this time. Double-digit drop. Canon should stop selling all ILCs, right?

Then again, even though the ILC market is contracting, there were still nearly 11,000,000 sold last year...and half of them were sold by Canon.

 
  • Like
Reactions: stevelee

PGSanta

EOS 80D
Sep 5, 2018
140
105
San Diego, CA
Spoken like a true Sony fanboy.

Canon just launched their FF MILC line. Wait for the line to gain traction, then watch Sony decline... This is not new. Canon has done this many many times in the past.

"Canon — Initially a follower in film SLR, eventually a leader in autofocus SLR; then a follower in DSLR that again flipped to leader; then a follower in mirrorless which may be flipping to leader. Sense a pattern there? Canon isn't generally the first mover, but when they move they move. I think that anyone who underestimates the EOS M and whatever full frame mirrorless Canon decides to produce needs to rethink their position. I'd call Canon opportunistic and well managed. I wouldn't call them the innovator that's going to trigger the next changeover in camera designs by leading the way, but they are quick to understand when that changeover is occurring. Follower that becomes a Winner."
- http://dslrbodies.com/newsviews/who-leads-who-follows-who.html
Um... what?

If anything I'm a Canon fanboy, but hey, who cares about facts or anything, right?