Canon said to have scrapped at least one DSLR in development [CR2]

Aug 21, 2018
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Could it be that aren't Canon going "scrap" 5DsR, 7DII, and 80D for two or three Mirrorless Cameras? I think that the two crop sensor cameras will either combine the two models or have one for each of them. The way I would deal with "crop" sensor make it ff but set default as crop in stead of ff and use RF mount.
 
Nov 19, 2018
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. The way I would deal with "crop" sensor make it ff but set default as crop in stead of ff and use RF mount.
would not work in real life to replace crop-sensor DSLRs, because R-mount crop-sensor cameras would be "too large" compared to what is really needed and to competition. even more importantly, they would be too expensive and not sell well. xxD class class buyers are typically people on a limited gear budget, not willing or able to pay for FF-sensor camera body at or near current prices (north of 2k for body only).

furthermore, "firmware nerfing" FF cameras to "crop only mode" would inevitably lead to all sorts of "unlocking" attempts. folks would buy the somewhat less expensive "crop" model and run "Magic Lantern"-style firmware or any other such "hack" on it to unlock FF. not a good scenario for Canon ...

Also, with R mount on camera users could only buy expensive RF lenses (FF glass) as native lenses (in addition to using existing EF-/EF-S glass with adapter).

with EOS M crop-sensor cameras they get
* compact gear
* with very good IQ and very decent performance at least on par with xxD
* at much better prices (eg M50 half price of 80D, 1/4 the cost of EOS R)
* can use all existing EF/EF-S glass with adapter
* get compact, good and relatively inexpensive native EF-M glass

APS-C crop sensor cameras with R mount simply do not make sense. neither technically nor commercially. Not for Canon and not for customers. it ain't going to happen.

All Canon crop-sensor DSLRs will be replaced by EOS M system. i am also convinced they don't need to offer as many models with only slightly different features.

a lineup of only 4 well-defined EOS M bodies can easily cover the entire spectrum from
* xxxxD (lowest cost, entry level, EOS M100 successors, tiny size, last gen sensor and AF, no EVF, simple UI)
* to xxxD/xxD class = M50/M5 and successors,
* to 7D class = slightly bigger grip than M5, top-notch AF and fps, full weathersealing, decent battery (still smaller and far less expensive than any EOS R model).
 
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Likes: Rocky
Nov 19, 2018
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with but some us us still want a crop that will deliver 30 MP, 10 fps, touch/tilt screen, WiFi, NFC...Come on Canon, bring it on!
can easily be done in an "EOS M7" ... new 26MP sensor, top-notch DP-AF [with Eye tracking ofc], high fps, really big RAW buffer, somewhat more grip, LP-E6N battery for more juice, full weathersealing, fully articulated screen, WIFI/NFC/Camera Connect implementation as good as or even better than in M50, USD/€ 1499 = fully competitive match in specs and price with Fuji XT-3. Smaller and less expensive than any EOS R.

Slapping mirror or R mount not needed to replace 7D II.
 
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BillB

EOS Rebel T7i
May 11, 2017
856
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can easily be done in an "EOS M7" ... new 26MP sensor, top-notch DP-AF [with Eye tracking ofc], high fps, really big RAW buffer, somewhat more grip, LP-E6N battery for more juice, full weathersealing, fully articulated screen, WIFI/NFC/Camera Connect implementation as good as or even better than in M50, USD/€ 1499 = fully competitive match in specs and price with Fuji XT-3. Smaller and less expensive than any EOS R.

Slapping mirror or R mount not needed to replace 7D II.
The question seems to be whether there are enough people out there who want to use R lenses on a crop camera to create a viable market niche.
 
Likes: ShermN8r
Nov 19, 2018
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The question seems to be whether there are enough people out there who want to use R lenses on a crop camera to create a viable market niche.
yes. I seriously doubt it.

1. those with "ample budget" will go with 2 EOS R bodies - 1x speed, 1x high rez - plus all of R lenses, using existing EF L glass during transition

2. those with limited budget / "7D class" users, mostly amateurs/semi-pro's into birding/wildlife etc. - will (have to) go with EOS M for crop plus EF teles. Good news is, that one can probably pick up EF L teles at very reasonable second-hand prices only a few short years from now - as soon as the new DO superteles in R-mount become available and "hi-end" tele users switch from EF to RF.
 

Random Orbits

EOS 6D Mark II
Mar 14, 2012
2,131
51
can easily be done in an "EOS M7" ... new 26MP sensor, top-notch DP-AF [with Eye tracking ofc], high fps, really big RAW buffer, somewhat more grip, LP-E6N battery for more juice, full weathersealing, fully articulated screen, WIFI/NFC/Camera Connect implementation as good as or even better than in M50, USD/€ 1499 = fully competitive match in specs and price with Fuji XT-3. Smaller and less expensive than any EOS R.

Slapping mirror or R mount not needed to replace 7D II.
Except that there are users that use large lenses on the 7Ds and the M's don't handle large lenses well.

I'd rather see the R full frame and R crop like the EF/EF-S pairing. That preserves the upgrade path. The M system can stay where it is. It replaces the powershot line with the flexibility of changing lenses.
 

Random Orbits

EOS 6D Mark II
Mar 14, 2012
2,131
51
that's why i expect a mirrorfree "7D III" in form of a slightly chunkier and higher performance EOS M5 successor. :)
The issue is that the EOS M ecosystem can not use RF lenses. I had a 7DII and used the 70-200 and 100-400s on it natively. Switching from crop to FF was easy because it used the same mount. One can use EF 70-200/100-400 on the M with the adapter because there are no RF counterparts. However, as Canon puts more development in RF, EF development will eventually cease. People will want to put their FF RF lenses onto the crop sensor, and they won't be able to because RF and EF-M are incompatible. That is a horrible feeder path to FF for Canon.

It makes more sense to leave EF-M where it is. Small bodies with a few small lenses. If Canon wants an APS-C feeder to FF, the RF mount is the way to do it. A few RF-S zooms and users will be able to migrate easily from crop to FF (easier than the EF-S to EF path now). The cameras can detect the RF-S lenses and save files that are compatible with the reduced image circle.
 

Rocky

EOS Rebel T7i
Jul 30, 2010
873
11
The issue is that the EOS M ecosystem can not use RF lenses.
It makes more sense to leave EF-M where it is. Small bodies with a few small lenses. If Canon wants an APS-C feeder to FF, the RF mount is the way to do it. A few RF-S zooms and users will be able to migrate easily from crop to FF (easier than the EF-S to EF path now). The cameras can detect the RF-S lenses and save files that are compatible with the reduced image circle.
What other company has provided the migrating path to FF? What is the percentage of APS-C user migrate to FF? Do you really think that Canon will spend its resource to develope RF-S lenses and APS-C RF body in anticipating people will migrate from APS-C RF to FF RF?
 

Random Orbits

EOS 6D Mark II
Mar 14, 2012
2,131
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What other company has provided the migrating path to FF? What is the percentage of APS-C user migrate to FF? Do you really think that Canon will spend its resource to develope RF-S lenses and APS-C RF body in anticipating people will migrate from APS-C RF to FF RF?
Nikon and Canon already do for their DSLRs.

I can't tell you what Canon will do, but I think they should and the rumor that they are considering it means that it has crossed their mind. The question isn't what is the percentage of APS-C users migrate to FF because the answer is probably low. The relevant question is what percentage of Canon FF users were Canon APS-C users previously, and I'm guessing that it's a much higher percentage. People stay with systems because of their sunk cost in glass not bodies. People are not excited about Canon bodies, but they are excited about Canon lenses. Where do you think Canon FF users come from? Sony? Fuji? Nikon?

DSLRs got its market share and popularity by developing/marketing/selling APS-C format cameras. I started with the 20D with a kit lens. I preferred Nikons at the time but Canon was cheaper (system cost including lenses). I eventually got the EF-S duo of 10-22 and 17-55, but then bought the 100L and 70-200L. When I decided to switch to FF, I chose Canon because of the 70-200L. If Canon does not maintain that link, then the M users will have lost a big incentive for remaining with Canon and that is a poor business strategy when their video specs/lack of IBIS/etc. are behind its competition.

I get the purpose of the M system. I've had a few of them and I currently have the M5. I choose it for portability. Not usability nor IQ. I also have the EF-M adapter, but the only time I use it is with an EF 24-105 atop a tripod for video.
 

tron

EOS 5DS R
Nov 8, 2011
3,792
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that's why i expect a mirrorfree "7D III" in form of a slightly chunkier and higher performance EOS M5 successor. :)
Are you a pro, amateur, or a couch surfer ? I cannot believe you have no idea of the use of cameras for birding! EVFs cannot do BIF (EOS R cannot!). And they are not even useful for still birds since there is a need for someone to use the viewfinder a lot of time so good bye battery.
 
Nov 19, 2018
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@tron: i am pure amateur, don't make money on images. No birder, like most Canon users. For whatever reasons, they are strongly over-represented on this forum. :)

As I said before, there might still be a (final) DSLR iteration ... "7D III". But I consider a somewhat higher-end mirrorfree M more likely. Transition is in full swing.

Also, there are images of birds captured with mirrorfree cameras. It sure is possible.
https://mirrorlesscomparison.com/best/mirrorless-cameras-for-wildlife-and-bird-photography/
 

tron

EOS 5DS R
Nov 8, 2011
3,792
159
@tron: i am pure amateur, don't make money on images. No birder, like most Canon users. For whatever reasons, they are strongly over-represented on this forum. :)

As I said before, there might still be a (final) DSLR iteration ... "7D III". But I consider a somewhat higher-end mirrorfree M more likely. Transition is in full swing.

Also, there are images of birds captured with mirrorfree cameras. It sure is possible.
https://mirrorlesscomparison.com/best/mirrorless-cameras-for-wildlife-and-bird-photography/
Of course it is possible if they do not fly and in general cooperate with the photographers. Also,
it will be 100% possible if the speed of EVFs increases alot (but trully ... alot). This will leave the battery issues of course :rolleyes: ... which will be solved by either a battery pack .... oh wait that way the camera will weigh like a DSLR or when the nuclear batteries will be introduced :D (OK kidding of course but we never know...)
 
Nov 19, 2018
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Of course it is possible if they do not fly and in general cooperate with the photographers.
from the above link. Captured with Sony A9, 100-400 lens plus 1.4x TC. Birdie appears to be flying.
But ... maybe it was co-operative and stood still for a minute or so on the water surface. Maybe it is even taxidermied. Who knows these days when even major wildlife image contests are won with stuffed anteaters and trained wolves? :p :LOL:


A9, 1/2500, f/8, ISO 3200 – 100-400mm GM + TC 1.4x

Source/Copyrights see -> https://mirrorlesscomparison.com/best/mirrorless-cameras-for-wildlife-and-bird-photography/
 
Likes: Randywayne

tron

EOS 5DS R
Nov 8, 2011
3,792
159
Or maybe the above was a non central crop or the photographer prefocused. Whatever! Still Canon EOS R is not the best for this photography. Add to these the fact that fps drop to 3 in Servo with focusing priority and it makes it an entry level camera for birding, etc...
 
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tron

EOS 5DS R
Nov 8, 2011
3,792
159
There is a compromise (Non slapping mirror, optical viewfinder) for this kind of photography but the companies didn't go for it:

Canon EOS RT, EOS 1Rs Sony A99 and A99 II. I had EOS RT. Nice camera.
 
Nov 19, 2018
127
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There is a compromise (Non slapping mirror, optical viewfinder) for this kind of photography but the companies didn't go for it:

Canon EOS RT, EOS 1Rs Sony A99 and A99 II. I had EOS RT. Nice camera.
fixed mirror ... yes, only a compromise. in all the old concepts (eg Canon EOS RT, Sony SLTs) the semi-transparent pellicle mirror in the lightpath diverts some of the precious light away from the image. and the cameras were neither smaller nor less expensive than regular DSLRs, so all such constructions never really got much traction in the market.

only current solution that combines OVF and EVF (user switchable; plus electronic rangefinder functionality) in digital cameras is Fuji's hybrid viewfinder as implemented in some of their cameras, eg X-Pro 2

unfortunately Fuji X-Pro 2 (launched 2016) only has an APS-C sensor not FF, pedestrian AF and no DSLR-like responsiveness, not good for sports/fast-paced action.

to me it is also unclear, whether Fuji will continue or abandon this hybrid VF approach, since their latest "flagship" cameras X-T3 (and X- H1) have EVFs only and there has been no successor to X-Pro 2 up to now. i think sales were rather low. but then, i have not been following Fuji products closely since i am not interested personally.
 
Nov 26, 2018
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The question seems to be whether there are enough people out there who want to use R lenses on a crop camera to create a viable market niche.
I have a FujiFilm X-T20 mirrorless, I am not interested in any EOS M or R series. I only purchased the Fujifilm to travel lighter and it proved it's value this past weekend in Florida.