Canon to use a Sony image sensor in an upcoming APS-C ILC body? [CR1]

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
2,846
263
Everyone has said it will lack dpaf. I'm saying Sony could make a sensor for Canon with DPAF if Canon asked them to.
Also, it's a CR1. What do you think the likelihood is that the exact sensor information is known about an otherwise completely unknown camera? Seriously. Think about that.
Nobody said a canon camera will lack DPAF. People asked if canon could add DPAF to a Sony sensor.

I think the likelihood anyone outside canon knows anything is approximately 0%, unless there is supply chain information suggesting canon purchased a large quantity of the aforementioned sensor.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,167
476
Everyone has said it will lack dpaf. I'm saying Sony could make a sensor for Canon with DPAF if Canon asked them to.
Also, it's a CR1. What do you think the likelihood is that the exact sensor information is known about an otherwise completely unknown camera? Seriously. Think about that.
Thats because the sensor mentioned lacks Dual Pixels. Sure, Sony could make a Dual Pixel Sensor, but thats not part of the rumor.
 
Reactions: Isaacheus

Adelino

EOS RP
Jan 21, 2015
256
97
Yeah I also believe they will use this sensor in a powershot like the G7X III but very unlikely they gonna use it in any DPAF camera. Why would Canon ditch their major advantage DPAF which is not even exhausted to its full potential yet?
Even the G7XIII there are strong rumors that it will have Dual Pixel, so again Sony sensor seems unlikely there.
 
Reactions: applecider
Sep 25, 2013
3
0
Sony (and even Samsung) makes smartphone sensors with DPAF, so they definitely know how to add it. How much it differs from Canon's, who knows? Also, X-Trans is only a CFA layer, added on top of the base sensor instead of a Bayer filter. Has no affect on the build of the sensor itself.
 

tiggy@mac.com

Pentax K-1000
Jan 20, 2014
468
142
Thetford, VT
www.ForestMetrix.com
I've taken more than 500k shots on a 7d2. Not only would I prefer 16fps over dual pixel AF, I'd pay 50 percent more for it.

I think dpaf is great, but it is not typically a bread and butter feature for a 7 series shooter.

If one were to guess the fastest way for Canon to release a 7d3 with improved fps, this would be it. My impression is that Canon needs some significant time to catch up on sensor readout, so this could be a rational move, if it is true.

I don't think Canon would bemoan the embarrassement of using a Sony sensor, as Sony's new sensors are already out there for everyone to see, and they're pretty great. That ship has sailed.

Having one in a Canon-made body, with the ergonomics and interfaces we love would make lots of us pretty happy, as most of us aren't keeping “brand score.” I mean if the alternative is an rf7d with 8 fps during af servo focusing, who wouldn't be?

Of course, i too would hope the rumor is off because Canon may have a crop answer to the A9 in the wings. But of the three options:
1) Launching a Canon with a Sony sensor
2) Canon's crop A9 imminent
3) Canon will sit around for another 18 months and not do much of anything
... guess which is most probable.
 

addola

Sold my soul for a flippy screen
Nov 16, 2015
43
13
An image sensor has all these little pins and connectors coming in and out of it. These connectors are for various things like voltage in, data-in/out, etc, etc. These pins also would connect to the image processor (DIGIC whatever). If we assume that Canon-made sensor follow certain designs and certain outputs coming out of the sensor, then using a Sony sensor (potentially with a different signal format, and pins at different positions) might require them make major redesigns for their boards and image processors.

According to Canon, a DPAF-capable sensor would have two photodiodes (that's a fancy word for light sensors), a design that might not be similar to what Sony has. Also, I thought Canon had some patents going around for "Quad Pixel AF". So I personally don't think they'll go this route, but who knows!

Exciting to see what they're up to.
 
Reactions: Antono Refa

traveller

EOS 6D MK II
Jul 22, 2010
895
58
We’ve heard this rumour before, just before Canon launched the 5DS(R) there was a rumour that it would have a Sony sensor. I remember that everyone got very excited and then the 5DS(R) came out with a Canon sensor and a lower DR figure than people had expected. Cue much hand-wringing and “that’s it, I’m switching to (Sony/Nikon)”...

So please excuse me if I pop to my local merchant and order a ton-bag of road-gritting salt, with which to consume this particular CR1 rumour.
 
Reactions: criscokkat

memoriaphoto

EOS 80D
Oct 14, 2013
120
33
I see this as plausible. It is in the midrange that the market is whining about DR, 4K video and IBIS. Not that Pros wouldn´t need it but we are not chasing specs like that. If Sony has a great sensor on the shelves and Canon can guarantee a certain volume, I am sure they´ll get a good offer and can price the camera accordingly. Having that said, I still think Sony saves the very best and latest for their own cameras to make sure they are always one step ahead in the sensor department.
 

mirage

EOS RP
Jul 31, 2018
297
111
Sony could possibly manufacture a DP-AF sensor according to Canon's detailed specs. But i don't think Canon is willing to share those. Even when Sony sensor business is sonewhat separated from Sony imaging division ...

Canon can make APS-C sensors in-house, it does not need Sony. Even if some Sony sensor might be 2/3 EV ahead in DR and/or a few cents lower cost per unit - in practice that has never kept Canon from selling more cameras with their sensors than Sony and Nikon/Sony combined.

in short: don't believe this rumour.

oO ... now i sound like a CanonFanBoy. But rest assured I am not. :)
 

mb66energy

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 18, 2011
1,137
108
Germany
www.MichaelBockhorst.de
the 7d iii wouldnt need dpaf if its only focus is photography and not video
Until now I am 99.99% photographer and I am glad that DPAF is there because it just works nearly without flaws for ... PHOTOGRAPHY.
If you like to compose your image first and set the focus point according to your composition you need a very precise on sensor AF and that is there Canon designed DPAF. And I need nearly the whole sensor surface as potential AF point depending of what I do.
 
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criscokkat

EOS 80D
Sep 26, 2017
151
110
Madison, WI
The only way I could see this as true is a aps-c point and shoot, or if this is the start of switching to Sony for all image sensors using Canon specs.

If Canon has decided to throw in the towel at higher read speed chips and are going to use Sony as a custom fabricator for their chips, they could cross license some of their enormous amount of patents in return for sony’s Expertise and fabs. They could even sell Sony the equipment needed in the fabs. There is no reason why canons dpaf could not be fabricated by Sony, if canon worked with them on the design.

This would explain canons recent push for using their sensors wholesale in machine applications. When a production line is too slow in the chip world for the newest computers it’s repurposed many times to make other chips that don’t need to be quite as fast. I could see that in the imaging sensor world as well.

However I had read previously that one of Canons foundaries was setting up a new processing line to make smaller chips - maybe they think it’s better outsourced? In today’s chip market, that might make sense. A whole string of successful patent lawsuits around the world have enforced the idea that companies get paid. Even AMD doesn’t make their own chips, their spun off company Global manufacturers does, along with TSMC.
 

JonSnow

EOS 80D
Sep 10, 2018
146
87
I'm not sure why people think that Sony couldn't create a dpaf sensor for Canon. They make sensors to spec all the time. Additionally, Sony's sensor manufacturing is a separate business from their cameras and must remain that way.
that´s not the question. the rumor says canon will use an existing sony sensor....
 
Reactions: mirage
Aug 1, 2017
241
138
The Sony IMX571 is the sensor that FujiFilm uses in the X-T3 which is an extremely capable video camera. Far better than anything Canon is offering outside of their cinema line of cameras. Not sure why posters are saying this camera wouldn't be able to offer video. DPAF does nice cinematic focus pulls but it's just one of many ways to manage video focus and for the time being it seems to be a challenge for DPAF to read out fast enough for DSLR level frame rates. Canon is now competing directly with the best MILC's out there and they may need to look outside of their own R&D to find solutions. Sony doesn't appear interested in developing their own APS-C line so they may be open to letting Canon have their most advanced APS-C sensor. Probably won't happen but nobody should rule it out IMO.
 
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Otara

EOS RP
Jul 16, 2012
230
22
It wasnt so much that it wouldnt offer it as the usual 'video doesnt matter' argument for why DPAF wasnt needed - it has to offer good quality video and video focus, anyone asking for otherwise is ignoring where the market is at these days and simply asking for what they want personally. To do this for one camera with the extra development etc needed also seems awfully unlikely to me.

I also see this as a marketting disaster, to say that DPAF 'doesnt matter' when its a major point of differentiation for them.
 

bhf3737

---
Sep 9, 2015
361
209
Calgary, Canada
www.flickr.com
I'm not sure why people think that Sony couldn't create a dpaf sensor for Canon. They make sensors to spec all the time. Additionally, Sony's sensor manufacturing is a separate business from their cameras and must remain that way.
My understanding is that Sony provides the CMOS sensor and the buyer can put color filter array (e.g. Beyer, X-Trans) on it for producing pictures. But the AF technology is different. The sensor MUST be tailored to the AF technology (phase or contrast detect or DPAF). This cannot be added to an existing sensor afterwards.
Perhaps Canon has set its sensor line to produce DPAF sensors all the way from 1-inch or smaller to full frame in its new plant. And for Canon, perhaps it is more economical to buy a sensor without DPAF elsewhere rather than setting a new production line for it.
DPAF is computationally expensive because it computes phase shift for every pixel and not for the AF points only. With phase detect or hybrid AF technology on a Sony sensor, Canon can possibly achieve very high FPS, I guess, as Fujifilm has reached 16-30 FPS on their XT3. This may suit well the 7Dx line.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,167
476
My understanding is that Sony provides the CMOS sensor and the buyer can put color filter array (e.g. Beyer, X-Trans) on it for producing pictures. But the AF technology is different. The sensor MUST be tailored to the AF technology (phase or contrast detect or DPAF). This cannot be added to an existing sensor afterwards.
Perhaps Canon has set its sensor line to produce DPAF sensors all the way from 1-inch or smaller to full frame in its new plant. And for Canon, perhaps it is more economical to buy a sensor without DPAF elsewhere rather than setting a new production line for it.
DPAF is computationally expensive because it computes phase shift for every pixel and not for the AF points only. With phase detect or hybrid AF technology on a Sony sensor, Canon can possibly achieve very high FPS, I guess, as Fujifilm has reached 16-30 FPS on their XT3. This may suit well the 7Dx line.
I agree, but would like to add...

Canon digic processors being developed are optimized for DPAF as is the firmware. I can imagine that maintaining two types of firmware, including service tools and training is expensive, so if they were to use this sensor, they would likely abandon DPAF for all APS sensors.
 

applecider

EOS 7D MK II
May 20, 2012
486
42
Portland Oregon, Cape Cod
Anyone know the ratio of APS C to full frame cameras for canon?

I’d bet it’s 5-10 to one. That said I can’t see canon outsourcing its most common sensor, and if they do it seems only a matter of time before full frame follows the same course, as R and D and even manufacture has got to be cheaper in volume.