Canon to use a Sony image sensor in an upcoming APS-C ILC body? [CR1]

YuengLinger

EOS 6D Mark II
Dec 20, 2012
2,073
108
Southeastern USA
#81
This is an embarrassing post from CR guy. I guess not enough people are leaking stories so we have to fill with this nonsense.

Canon is on record as talking proudly as being an "end to end" imaging company, who make everything from their sensors through to printers. They've just had an event in Europe showcasing their sensors, that they're trying to sell to other companies as the best. Further, they're aggressively going after Sony in the mirrorless space.

So yeah, I don't see that happening, ever.
This is a harsh post from you.
Let us think this through together. Imagine you run a popular rumors website. You hear from a "source" that Canon is considering using a specific Sony sensor in an upcoming APS-C body. So, you think to yourself, "Visitors and members won't find this interesting, and it won't spark any discussion. Don't post." Would that have been your choice?

From this member's point of view, the decision to post was correct.
 
Likes: Del Paso

3kramd5

EOS 5D Mark IV
Mar 2, 2012
2,655
165
#82
Agreed. It could be a few things but the one thing that you can see clearly is the Analog Devices logo. The PN may be a problem anyway since the parts may have a special PN just for Canon. Semiconductor companies often times play games with part numbering. For example they may have a catalog part at a given price, they may offer that same part (possibly with a different pinout and some features killed or not tested) to someone like Canon (in large volume, at a significantly lower price) but mark it differently. That "different" PN may not appear in any catalog. FWIW: I come from the semiconductor business (now retired). That part bears a resemblance to a 10 channel part that AD makes.
Yes I can definately make out their logo and have familiarity with custom semicon parts (I’m currently struggling with finding alternate sources for some RF PA dies; and everyone has their own PN mapping to my spec).

If I squint real hard it looks like there are 14 pins coming off that blue flex. It would kinda sorta make sense if it were carrying digital values (14-bit registers) into a logic device (Analog makes gate arrays, etc). Additionally, I’d expect differential pairs for the analog signal (probably LVDS), and those traces don’t look length-matched.

It’s impossible to tell, but I’m guessing those discrete components adjacent to it are little 0201 resistors to bias the chip.

If it’s an ACD, how do you think it works? How do they buffer the sensor output such that they can write it in blocks of 14 over the cable and into Analog’s part? Clock signal generated on the main board which synchronizes some analog buffers on the sensor board to the ADC?

Note: whatever they are doing seems to work fine, this is just personal curiosity.

@David Hull and @3kram5d ...guys with your line of expertise (semi conductors/electronics) should team up with Roger Cicala at lensrentals.com .. it would give us even better tear-downs! (seriously).
I can speak fairly intelligently to the electronics packaging design, i.e. the chassis, how the boards are configured, cables, mechanisms, thermal management, etc.

When it comes to circuit level stuff (schematic, like we’re discussing here) I probably know more than many purely due to professional interactions, but I’m not an electrical engineer. Of course, when I look at other people’s designs I usually come away with more questions than conclusions :D
 

Antono Refa

EOS Rebel SL2
Mar 26, 2014
665
30
#83
Its possible, APS-C sensors are becoming more of a commodity, FF sensors may become a focus for Canon in the future. Canon will take the lowest cost method for similar performance. With sales falling everywhere, there is more attention being paid to the high end products.
I'd agree that APS-C might be coming a commodity product. Canon will probably want to produce their mid-range cameras as cheaply as possible. I'd say a buyer who only has limited knowledge of cameras and video will just be looking at how many MP's what FPS and does it have 4K video. It will meet those criteria.
I don't think they won't use Sony sensors as point of principle. I'd say they'd go for the cheapest source.
I disagree, as

1. There's higher volume, and therefore profits, in lower end models.

2. Going with a Sony sensor would force Canon to share profits with Sony.

3. All the more so as Canon squeezes the last cents out of every part in the xxxxD series.
 
Likes: Del Paso

Antono Refa

EOS Rebel SL2
Mar 26, 2014
665
30
#84
This is my general thought too. I am trying to think of some specialty niche where Canon might be ok not including DPAF and that would really benefit from a Sony sensor. Maybe an astro version of the 90D?
Previous astro versions of xxD simply had a filter removed.

Having two 90D models with completely different sensors would be weird, e.g. the two cameras would have different firmware, and Canon would need to add support a Sony sensor in it's freeware DPP.

Maybe Canon would use a Sony sensor in a PowerShot G, or a cinema camera.
 
Jul 31, 2018
297
110
#85
Maybe Canon would use a Sony sensor in a PowerShot G, or a cinema camera.
yes. They do. But so far only up to 1" sensors - not APS-C.
Canon Powershot G1X Mk. III is the first Powershot model with APS-C sensor [24 MP, DP-AF - same or very similar as the one in 77D, M5/M6] - presumably made in-house by Canon.
 
Dec 8, 2014
84
3
#86
I am sorry, I didn´t read all off the topic answers...but I found this on youtube today and then i read this post! Well.....i guess i am connecting dots here, but it is a tremendous curiosity that suposed linked specs of a possible 7DmkIII, are similar to this sensor specs.... :D
 
Jul 31, 2018
297
110
#87
hehe ... for Sony you have the very same rumor today for their "expected next" APS-C ILCs A6700, A7000 ... with this very sensor [Sony IMX571].
https://www.sonyrumors.co/new-rumored-specs-of-sony-a6700-a7000/
:ROFLMAO:

Personally I find the exciting rumor "next Sony cameras will use Sony imaging sensor" a tiny bit more credible than "next Canon ILC will have a Sony APS-C sensor inside". :)

btw: here is Sony Semi Conductor Solutions' current line-up of relevant imaging sensors if more material is needed for new rumors. :)
https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor2/products/index.html
 
Likes: Go Wild

Hector1970

EOS Rebel T7i
Mar 22, 2012
889
26
#92
I disagree, as

1. There's higher volume, and therefore profits, in lower end models.

2. Going with a Sony sensor would force Canon to share profits with Sony.

3. All the more so as Canon squeezes the last cents out of every part in the xxxxD series.
1. There is profit in the lower end model but Canon would be trying very hard to reduce the cost of making the model to maximise profits. It's a cost competitive area
2. Canon won't care about Sony's profits. They will only care about their own. Those sensors are probably low margin high volume items for Sony
3. Canon probably have calculated its cheaper to buy rather than make high volume APS-C Sensors

It's all about profit margin and volume in the end. Canon will look to try and get the best outcome and nothing is sacred.
 
Jul 31, 2018
297
110
#93
3. Canon probably have calculated its cheaper to buy rather than make high volume APS-C Sensors
Don't think so. I think the "sony APS-C in Canon camera/s" rumor is a totally unfounded, if not consciously propagated "fake-news". I fully expect Canon to continue using their own sensors in all of their upcoming APS-C ILCs, primarily mirrorfree EOS M models [M5 II, M6 II ?, M100 II ...] plus maybe 1 or 2 last crop DSLRs ... possibly a "90D", less likely also a 7D Mk. III.

Crop-sensor mirrorslappers in the "xxD/xxxD/xxxxD" categories have lost their reason ever since Canon launched the EOS M50. Better specs in a smaller package at a very affordable price. That's why the bottom is falling out of "entry level" [DSLR] sales ... and M5, M6, M100 are not attractive any longer either, update urgently needed. :)

see Canon Q3 financial report
Within this, sales of mirrorless cameras increased mainly supported by sales of such new products as the EOS Kiss M. However, unit sales decreased overall compared with the same period of the previous year due to a temporary slowdown in demand, mainly for entry-level models.
I am sure that despite this statement Canon is well aware that "slowdown in demand for [crop] mirrorslappers" is not temporarily, but rather permanent ... and "terminal". :p
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D Mark IV
Mar 2, 2012
2,655
165
#94
I am sure that despite this statement Canon is well aware that "slowdown in demand for [crop] mirrorslappers" is not temporarily, but rather permanent ... and "terminal".
I suspect they’re feeling the brunt of market saturation and increasing ability in smart devices. I wouldn’t be surprised if the slowdown is persistent, regardless of whether a mirror is part of the box, and if canon etc. turns more focus towards the high end.
 
Jul 31, 2018
297
110
#95
ofc there has been an ongoing onslaught of mobile devices with cameras. Canon and all other "traditional" imaging gear makers have stubbornly ignored the market for the longest time and simply continued to churn out ever-same boring iterations of their big, heavy, clunky, noisy, non-modular, non-communicating, un-intuitive and expensive mirrorslappers. I quite like to see that they now are finally "feeling the brunt of their disgruntled former customers".

looking forward to new players taking rhe stage with computational imaging gear free of any moving mechanical parts and devoid of heavy polished glass blocks up front. from time to time paradigms need to shift, tilt, rise and fall. :)
 

Antono Refa

EOS Rebel SL2
Mar 26, 2014
665
30
#96
Crop-sensor mirrorslappers in the "xxD/xxxD/xxxxD" categories have lost their reason ever since Canon launched the EOS M50.
According to Wikipedia, the M5 got "the same sensor is used in the Canon EOS 80D", which goes back to my original point - Canon recycles sensors to make the most sales, and profit, on the initial investment.

The xxxxD series just squeezes the last cents out of existing parts. As the 2000D & 4000D were launched in February, it seems to me Canon thinks there's still some profit to be made even in that category.
 
Jul 31, 2018
297
110
#97
According to Wikipedia, the M5 got "the same sensor is used in the Canon EOS 80D", which goes back to my original point - Canon recycles sensors to make the most sales, and profit, on the initial investment.

The xxxxD series just squeezes the last cents out of existing parts. As the 2000D & 4000D were launched in February, it seems to me Canon thinks there's still some profit to be made even in that category.
I really doubt Canon is making much profit on several different models of their low-end crop-mirrorslappers [4000D, 2000D, 1200D, 1300D] at retail prices between € 289 and € 369 in my country / Central Europe ... often including some version of EF-S 18-55 kit lens ... and always including 20% VAT (sales tax).
 
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Hector1970

EOS Rebel T7i
Mar 22, 2012
889
26
#98
I really doubt Canon is making much profit on several different models of their low-end crop-mirrorslappers [4000D, 2000D, 1200D, 1300D] at retail prices between € 289 and € 369 in my country / Central Europe ... often including some version of EF-S 18-55 kit lens ... and always including 20% VAT (sales tax).
You'd be surprised how Canon can squeeze a decent profit out of these.
Canon is a very business focussed company. They for sure would use Sony Sensors if it were cheaper for them. As volumes drop is less economical for them to make their own APS-C sensors. You have to focus your resources on future products and make the existing me too products as cheaply as possible.
 

Antono Refa

EOS Rebel SL2
Mar 26, 2014
665
30
#99
I really doubt Canon is making much profit on several different models of their low-end crop-mirrorslappers [4000D, 2000D, 1200D, 1300D] at retail prices between € 289 and € 369 in my country / Central Europe ... often including some version of EF-S 18-55 kit lens ... and always including 20% VAT (sales tax).
Not having sales / profit numbers, my bet is...

Those cameras make some profit, or else Canon would have killed it years ago. My guess is the low price comes from the cameras being made from hand me down (sensor, AF sensor, DIGIC) and common (EF-S mount, etc) parts from / with higher models. The R&D & manufacturing facilities setup costs were probably covered, and Canon makes just makes a small profit on keeping the manufacturing lines running.

A cheap kit gets customers into the system. I started with a 450D w/ EF-S 18-55mm (just before the 1000D hit the shelves), and stuck with the system. Now I have a 5Dmk3, four L zooms, a couple of primes, and an EX flash. My cousin bought an xxxxD camera w/ 2 lenses kit. Her sister liked it enough to buy an xxxD & 3 lenses.