Canon will reclaim their full-frame megapixel crown [CR1]

Aug 1, 2017
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Tell me again about when Sony passed Canon in terms of total ILC sales and ILC market share. I seem to have missed that announcement.
If total market share is important to you that's fine. I don't see how that's any more relevant to meeting my equipment needs than knowing which mega-corp sells the most cheeseburgers or shampoo. But, if going along with the crowd makes you feel warm and fuzzy then that's what you should do.

Canon's market share is inflated by sales of consumer camera's that don't really interest me. Canon can put t7's in crackerjack boxes and McDonald's Happy Meals for all I care. I judge camera's on their technical merits and ability to meet my needs, not their popularity.

edit: The relevant point I was trying to make is that everything Canon has done in the last five years has been in response to pressure from Sony's Alpha's. Despite being the market leader in sales, when it comes to tech they are following, not leading.

Does anybody believe Canon would have released the R bodies and RF lenses were it not for Sony's Alpha series hogging all the positive press for the last five years.
 
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3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
3,080
399
that everything Canon has done in the last five years has been in response to pressure from Sony's Alpha's.
Certainly untrue. Reduce your scope significantly from everything, and then you’ll achieve a maybe.

Does anybody believe Canon would have released the R bodies and RF lenses were it not for Sony's Alpha series hogging all the positive press for the last five years.
I expect they react more to their own market research than competitor press.
 
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BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
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edit: The relevant point I was trying to make is that everything Canon has done in the last five years has been in response to pressure from Sony's Alpha's. Despite being the market leader in sales, when it comes to tech they are following, not leading.

Does anybody believe Canon would have released the R bodies and RF lenses were it not for Sony's Alpha series hogging all the positive press for the last five years.
People believe lots of things that are not true. We will never know what Canon might have done or might not have done if Sony had not produced the Alpha series.
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,151
564
Canon's market share is inflated by sales of consumer camera's that don't really interest me.
It's not "inflated". In the era of smartphones, Canon still manages to sell cameras that interest people, and does it better than any other manufacturer.

Canon can put t7's in crackerjack boxes and McDonald's Happy Meals for all I care.
That would be quite expensive boxes.

I judge camera's on their technical merits and ability to meet my needs, not their popularity.
That's how tools earn their popularity. If you are in minority there, you can as well be in minority here.

edit: The relevant point I was trying to make is that everything Canon has done in the last five years has been in response to pressure from Sony's Alpha's.
Isn't that a kind of... well, overstatement?

Did Canon, for instance, develop and publish CCAPI in response to pressure from Sony's Alphas? If so, which kind of pressure in particular, given that Sony is still not shipping a camera that supports WiFi tethering (in a legitimate way, I mean)?
 
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neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
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If total market share is important to you that's fine. I don't see how that's any more relevant to meeting my equipment needs than knowing which mega-corp sells the most cheeseburgers or shampoo. But, if going along with the crowd makes you feel warm and fuzzy then that's what you should do.

Canon's market share is inflated by sales of consumer camera's that don't really interest me. Canon can put t7's in crackerjack boxes and McDonald's Happy Meals for all I care. I judge camera's on their technical merits and ability to meet my needs, not their popularity.
It’s too bad for you that Canon doesn’t really care about your personal needs. Out of curiosity, are you enjoying your Sony camera(s) and lenses?
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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If total market share is important to you that's fine. I don't see how that's any more relevant to meeting my equipment needs than knowing which mega-corp sells the most cheeseburgers or shampoo. But, if going along with the crowd makes you feel warm and fuzzy then that's what you should do.

Canon's market share is inflated by sales of consumer camera's that don't really interest me. Canon can put t7's in crackerjack boxes and McDonald's Happy Meals for all I care. I judge camera's on their technical merits and ability to meet my needs, not their popularity.

edit: The relevant point I was trying to make is that everything Canon has done in the last five years has been in response to pressure from Sony's Alpha's. Despite being the market leader in sales, when it comes to tech they are following, not leading.

Does anybody believe Canon would have released the R bodies and RF lenses were it not for Sony's Alpha series hogging all the positive press for the last five years.
I guess that's why Canon introduced Dual Pixel AF for video recording. Because Sony already had it, right?

Plenty to like about Canon and plenty to dislike about Sony but if you can't appreciate the extent to which Sony is driving camera tech forward I don't know what to tell you. Canon is the world's largest camera company with decades of experience and for the most part they have been chasing Sony's tail for the last several years. It's a little sad.

Canon's cameras, like pretty much every camera made in the last decade or so, still produce fine images but the tech gap is widening every day. I understand why that gets on some peoples nerves but it's not Sony's fault that Canon isn't keeping up.
Both Canon and Sony exist as entities because they wish to sell products in order to generate a profit. If that goal includes meeting your individual desires in a camera, I'm sure they are fine with that. But pleasing you is not the sole reason for their existence.

When someone says "Company A has been chasing Company B's tail for the last several years" then it must be assumed one is talking about making money and market share. That's why Company A and Company B do what they do: to make money.

But beyond that...


Sony has driven things forward in some respects. But a lot of the 'forward drive' in Sony's products has actually been spent chasing Canon's tail along with the tail of every mature DSLR manufacturer. It's easy to look at the A7 series and see four generations of improvement while forgetting that it was the third generation before the AF could compete with SLR AF, as but one example. It's also easy to forget all the sensor imaging problems Sony has had over these generations. Off sensor flare, compressed RAW artifacts, star eaters, striping. And do I dare mention ergonomics and weather sealing?

These things are fresh in my memory because I carefully researched and considered buying every single A7R released. And every time there was a 'show stopper' issue that would have killed it for me even if I otherwise would have gone Sony. In a twist of irony, I finally gave up waiting for Sony to catch up and moved to the 5Ds.

Sony is a competitive force which is ultimately good for everyone. But it's grating to hear over and over again how far ahead they are based on a selected subset of considerations which happen to play to their strengths.
 
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neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
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edit: The relevant point I was trying to make is that everything Canon has done in the last five years has been in response to pressure from Sony's Alpha's. Despite being the market leader in sales, when it comes to tech they are following, not leading.

Does anybody believe Canon would have released the R bodies and RF lenses were it not for Sony's Alpha series hogging all the positive press for the last five years.
So in your mind, the tail wags the dog. Nice.

Sony’s ILC market share was stagnant from 2009 to 2017 (they gained a whole 3% in 2018, but not from Canon), and EOS R development cycle started before 2017. Positive press that doesn’t affect sales is irrelevant.
 

unfocused

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Jul 20, 2010
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...Does anybody believe Canon would have released the R bodies and RF lenses were it not for Sony's Alpha series hogging all the positive press for the last five years.
I absolutely do. It was only a matter of time and technological development before camera manufacturers began incorporating video into camera viewfinders. (Which, after all, is the main feature of mirrorless cameras.) Anyone could have seen that was the trajectory camera manufacturers were on once digital cameras were introduced. The introduction of Live View was key precursor. Indeed, I remember having discussions to that effect way more than five years ago on this very forum. At the time, the consensus was that the technology was not sufficiently mature enough to satisfy the needs of professionals and enthusiasts.

I bought my wife a Nikon superzoom point and shoot more than 10 years ago that had a workable but mediocre electronic viewfinder. Those early point and shoots were the testing ground for mirrorless cameras and all the brands have been refining the technology ever since.

Yes, Sony was the most aggressive and first to the market with enthusiast level mirrorless cameras, but it was inevitable that Nikon and Canon would get into the market. Remember that Sony went all-in on mirrorless out of necessity, since they couldn't compete against Nikon and Canon on the DSLR front. It was a smart move on Sony's part and it enabled them to capture a large share of the market in the early years. It remains to be seen if they can sustain that.

An alternative view would be that Nikon and Canon let Sony take the initial risk and become the beta tester, while they sat back and perfected their systems.

Main point is: crediting Sony with driving the market is a bit of a stretch since none of us has access to either Canon's or Nikon's corporate strategy.
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
3,080
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Well, I guess if you are the first, you are by definition the most aggressive since it's easy to be more aggressive than nothing. But, I get your point.
In fairness I don’t really know who built the first mirrorless digital ILC.
 

Bennymiata

EOS 6D MK II
Leica was probably the first ILC mirrorless camera, but they used film and not sensors.

There's nothing much that's new, just new combinations of existing tech.

I have an M5, but I still like looking through the OVF of my 5d3 much more, but I do understand why some prefer an EVF.
However, if you have skill and experience, an EVF just doesn't cut it like an OVF.
Just my 2c.
 
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Phil Indeblanc

EOS M50
Apr 8, 2014
42
1
Using both the A7RII and the 5DMarkIII....
If Canon cannot provide a fast focus system as 5Dm3 or better, and improve sensor performance with a hybrid like EVF/OVF with at least the option to shoot in 30mp, or 50mp or so, then they should not bother releasing anything. The megapixels is just for people who think that number is the end all, and we all know it is far from that, and least important. But, there are so many newbie shooters, and all the X pro shooters who used to make money shooting, are now "influencers", so the marketing has changed, and so have the bulk of users.

I don't hear many others gripe about the issues I have had with the Sony A7RII, the in camera previews are horrible long lag(zoom 1:1 and change pictures is bad.), the electronics often can use a ON/OFF to reset and recognize the lens, and the same for flash triggers. Menus suck, but have great customization that helps. I dont have any of these issues with the 5DM3. Yet there is no talk about if these problems are present. There are very FEW Pros on YT that discuss the issues with Sony, and they are lost under all the positives, which the sensor is.

After getting an LGrip that extends, I have no ergo issues with the A7RI and ditched the battery grip. The lens release location is thoughtless, as its you index or middle finger support to hold up the camera with 1 hand...at least for my ergo.
Also, the fact is, I dont want to get a new 180macroL, or a 100mm macro, or a 70-200 ISL, or a super wide, Or the other adpaters I seldom used but paid stupid Novoflex prices for. Its been some time that I have even pulled out my Phase One back, as the Sony is doing fine in the studio and is almost equal in pixels, but faster, and more options. With so much less "big" jobs for us freelancers, there is no time or budget for a MF like the PhaseOnes. But maybe Fuji 50 MF maybe or when the price of the 100 MF is around $6 to 7? WHo knows...it STILL doesn't help me make more income...As photography is rarely ever about the system used. But tools that are more TRANSPARENT so we have less fiddling with to capture our vision or clients projects.

It would be amazing if Canon made a head mount camera with a monocle style viewfind over the eye, and the rest of the unit would be behind the head and tethered to a waist belt. Its shocking we dont have this yet! Not really Google glasses, but a real camer system that has a hand remote, or gesture trigger. We are in 2020 in a few months, and the system is holding soooo much tech back, and only bleeding it out as we bleed out the money for tiny changes.

I have no idea why Canon made the R series. Waste of time really, and people say how the autofocus is no good for quick response. What?? How does technology back pedal unless its a horrible idea?

We need a 5D MarkV
With:
True optional AA filter
50mpixels+ with options for less
Multi pixel shift shooting for larger files that can be previewed, and layered in post
Maybe better display of seeing our settings with OLED or phosphor ink or something.
Touch screen focus, and all the features the 5Dm4 has and MORE
(I honestly think 4K video is great, but DON'T CARE! I use a differnt system for it, and it should be fine this way. I agree you shouldn't need a $5-10K camera for it.)
NO NEW LENS MOUNT, UNLESS it was going to be hybrid with a LARGER format, like medium format body? Otherwise, WHY?
More compact is not a bad direction, but has to be no cost of battery or feature sets
I wish we could alos have an optional IR filter with the sensor being sensitive to IR light.

Why I LOVE the Sony A7RII
I can see when it focuses with the little green dots
I can focus with EVF by zooming in, and can do WYSIWYG in the VF
Macro shooting in studio is so easy and nice with the zoom and manual focus or auto
I like it being compact
Screen articulation, although a full flip would help so much better with Real estate, so I use a rig with external monitor.
I like the number of buttons I can custom map

A few other things I didn't mention above that I dont like...
I already sent it in for repair sometime ago for the SD card slot, the USB connection, the mount being sloppy, and general electronics glitches. Even now it still is picky on the cards I use, as it just doesnt like Transcend or PNY high speed cards. This is unacceptable.
 

bwud

EOS RP
Sep 3, 2014
305
10
Using both the A7RII and the 5DMarkIII....
I used an A7R ii for two years, and currently use an A7R iii and a 5D iii.

Why I LOVE the Sony A7RII

I can see when it focuses with the little green dots
Yes, unfortunately, like traditional PDAF, it often doesn’t focus where it says it will (especially when the subject is moving towards the camera).

I ... can do WYSIWYG in the VF
I disagree. You can see your composition and depth of field, but you don’t even get default JPG color space (take a photo of a vibrant scene and then immediately replay it while looking in the VF; without fail the replay looks different - typically better), and you have a very limited contrast ratio + a screen which is adjusting brightness for ambient conditions at the camera (as opposed to where the camera is pointing), which in my experience often leads to underexposure if not using the histogram or meter to adjust exposure settings.
 
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Phil Indeblanc

EOS M50
Apr 8, 2014
42
1
Well, I know its not so accurate, but at least being able to focus in low light is surely a plus.
So, maybe you can help....Is the 1 to 1 zoom on the R3 the same or significantly faster and close to the 5Dm3 or even better?
 

bwud

EOS RP
Sep 3, 2014
305
10
Well, I know its not so accurate, but at least being able to focus in low light is surely a plus.
So, maybe you can help....Is the 1 to 1 zoom on the R3 the same or significantly faster and close to the 5Dm3 or even better?
I don’t rightly know; it has been a long time since I’ve used live view on my 5D. To me the VF experience is significantly better than the rear screen experience, though, so I imagine I’d prefer doing it with my a7r iii.

I very much like zoom in the EVF on the Sony body. My only complaint is the requirement to switch to manual focus first. I have a button mapped to switch to MF just so that I can press my button mapped to zoom. Seems intuitive that if I am zooming I want to focus manually. That’s one thing I’ve never quite understood about Sony - it seems senseless.
 
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Phil Indeblanc

EOS M50
Apr 8, 2014
42
1
Listening to a review, I think it was 3 Elephants or something on Youtube, his verbage of the feature for the A7RIV is that it can zoom in during Auto. So they might have finally "fixed" that limitation.

What I descrive in the EVF is more so for the fact you are not looking at a black VF(not screen). So when dark with flash, you can compose.

Lets just hope Canon is going to be serious and do something meaningful. Not like this R series stuff they pulled recently.