Canon will reclaim their full-frame megapixel crown [CR1]

[AlanF]

Right, my first post here. Been checking and reading a few months, kept my opinions to myself. But by now I'm getting really tired of all of the focus on the RF equipment. I've tested it, worked with it, and it feels like a kids toy. I can't work with it, I won't work with it, I'm not going to switch or invest in any way in RF equipment.

It would be nice if there would be some sign of acknowledgement that EF is not dead, and that there are still people who want developments in that area. My wish list of EF-related equipment is growing every month, but I've completely stopped investing in it as I'm not going to throw money down the drain.

The second person who joined CR and immediately panned the R. What a coincidence!

 

[privatebydesign]

I don’t really understand the gripes, the EF system is a mature system, there isn’t a lot more to add to it and anybody that thinks they can’t take basically any image out there (short of crazy specialization) with the EF system is delusional.

Stop bitching about the most complete and versatile 135 format camera system ever made, you are kidding yourself if you think you need more.

On the other hand the RF system is new, everybody likes a new thing even if it is just so they can say they dont like the new thing! But it is new and its going to take time to fill the system out, but Canon will fill it out.

This reminds me of the late 1980’s where many of us were using FD gear and looking suspiciously at EF gear with the pathetic 1 focus point, horrible manual focus throw on the AF lenses, no backwards compatibility etc etc, worrying about how much further that FD gear would take us, boy the situation is so much better this time. We have backwards compatibility! We have so many options, seriously anybody moaning about what is available today is just doing it to hear themselves moan and get a reaction.

 

[melgross]

I don’t really understand the gripes, the EF system is a mature system, there isn’t a lot more to add to it and anybody that thinks they can’t take basically any image out there (short of crazy specialization) with the EF system is delusional.

Stop bitching about the most complete and versatile 135 format camera system ever made, you are kidding yourself if you think you need more.

On the other hand the RF system is new, everybody likes a new thing even if it is just so they can say they dont like the new thing! But it is new and its going to take time to fill the system out, but Canon will fill it out.

This reminds me of the late 1980’s where many of us were using FD gear and looking suspiciously at EF gear with the pathetic 1 focus point, horrible manual focus throw on the AF lenses, no backwards compatibility etc etc, worrying about how much further that FD gear would take us, boy the situation is so much better this time. We have backwards compatibility! We have so many options, seriously anybody moaning about what is available today is just doing it to hear themselves moan and get a reaction.

That’s pretty much true.

people also look at Sony and think they actually had a mirrorless plan because.., well, they didn’t. Sony went heavily into mirrorless because theY had no more than 5% of the dslr market, and no matter what they did there over the years, they couldn’t break from that. So they looked where no one else was, and decided to try that. With really no competition there, they began to gain momentum.
but now, with Canon and Nikon entering, they’re going to have a much harder time of it.

i See all this criticism of Canon, here and elsewhere. But we really don’t know their plans. We can suspect, but not know. I think Canon will be just fine, or at least, as fine as they can be in an overall market decline, which will likely continue. We just have to hope, that at some point soon, that decline will end, and a decent market will stabilize. if not, then several companies will go belly up as Samsung did several years ago when they left the photo market. Eventually, we could see Nikon leave too, as their sales and marketshare are in serious decl8ne.

 

[Dantana]

No, I'm referring to the fact that they won't give quality p24 on their cameras. For example, the R can't shoot 1080p24. The new G series Powershots can't shoot 1080p24 or 2160p24. Canon will only give you p24 as long as the footage has some obvious visual problem with it to keep a serious critical user from using it. So, if the camera has a crazy crop in 4K and bad rolling shutter that makes everything look like jello, sure they'll give you 4Kp24 because the footage is substandard. But if the camera uses the whole sensor (no crop) and doesn't have bad rolling shutter or some other pretty obvious visual flaw (in that resolution) you're not getting p24 So, in the case of the R that means no 1080p24. In other models that means to 1080p24 or 2160p24. After all, Canon has Cx00 cameras to protect. Apparently even from their P&S lineup.


Wait, you mean they'll sell you the options you want in the body style you want? Crazy... They should be like Canon and make all their models with only one trim level and no options. Take it or leave it. I'm glad you decided to go with this analogy to back your argument.


The new F150s have 4 cameras, not just a reversing camera.

I think you are mistaken with the R. Canon lists these two options for 1080p, both with 24 fps:

Full HD 1920 x 1080: 29.97fps/24.00fps/23.98fps/HDR Video, ALL-I: 90Mbps, 654 MB/min.
SD Card: UHS-I, UHS Speed Class 3 or higher

Full HD 1920 x 1080: 29.97fps/24.00fps/23.98fps/HDR Video, IPB: 30Mbps, 216 MB/min.
SD Card: SD Speed Class 4 or higher

Perhaps you are thinking of the RP. I would agree that it seems a strange thing to omit from that body, but it does exist in the R.

 

[sdz]

That’s pretty much true.

people also look at Sony and think they actually had a mirrorless plan because.., well, they didn’t. Sony went heavily into mirrorless because theY had no more than 5% of the dslr market, and no matter what they did there over the years, they couldn’t break from that. So they looked where no one else was, and decided to try that. With really no competition there, they began to gain momentum.
but now, with Canon and Nikon entering, they’re going to have a much harder time of it.

i See all this criticism of Canon, here and elsewhere. But we really don’t know their plans. We can suspect, but not know. I think Canon will be just fine, or at least, as fine as they can be in an overall market decline, which will likely continue. We just have to hope, that at some point soon, that decline will end, and a decent market will stabilize. if not, then several companies will go belly up as Samsung did several years ago when they left the photo market. Eventually, we could see Nikon leave too, as their sales and marketshare are in serious decl8ne.

Sony also benefits from having Sony Semiconductor developing its sensor technology for the cell phone market. This currently is lucrative and provides Sony Semiconductor with a proving ground for its innovative products. Canon lacks this advantage.

I wonder if Canon could and would partner with Samsung.....

 

[ashmadux]

It's not hard to grasp. It's how they do it that draws ire. Did Ford remove the back seat from the Mustang to protect sedan sales? How about keeping the power down on the F150 so that people would have to buy a Mustang if they want to go fast?

I swear some of you would support Canon even if they made it so their L lenses wouldn't work on their non-pro cameras models saying it's simply a product differentiation thing and the people complaining about such a limitation don't get it.


None of which for example explains why p24 video has vanished from the new cameras. They clearly removed it for a non-technical reason.

It sure seems like Canon tries to remove as much as they think they can get away with from every model to create artificial market segmentation at each price point. Whereas it seems like Nikon and Sony try to put as much as possible into each models for their price point regardless if one of their lower end models might at least temporarily surpass the capability of an older higher end model.


Edit:
For example, Canon would never put the sort of AF features the new RX100 VII has (whether it needs them or not). They would never put features or tech borrowed directly from their top end cameras in a P&S. Heck Canon won't even put their top end metering or AF in a 2nd tier camera.

This, this this. They actually hobbled the sensor of the RP/6d2 as to not compete with the 5 series. BOTH cameras was on my radar, but I bought neither.

I find that the arguments about 'who needs what' is utter nonsense. They should be added the full amount of features possible into their bodies. The AF capabilities that are now available in modest sony cameras is because they have the tech and it makes their cameras better and easy to use. Period.

But canon cant seem to think that way. Then again, maybe with hobbled video features, one day never, I'll go and 'upgrade' to their video cameras.......lololololololololololoololollooloooloool

I'm a canon customer, and they deserve every piece of criticism they get. They can keep their three thousand dollar lenses- I see catalogs being shot with the 24-105 all the time.

 

[Cochese]

This might mean, that the "next generation" Canon sensor may catch up with the somy sensors from 2011, which by the way should have been in the 5d Mark iii.
It can easily be, that they mean the pixel count only, payed by a slower readout and even less dynamic range for the benefit of relatively more dead space between the pixels.

the R-lenses may be fantastic but system efficency is a product of lens and sensor efficency, which means that the weaker Canon sensors easily waste the advantage which would be possible with the better Sony sensors

Fantastic times are ahead of us

The sensor in the 5DMIV caught up to Sony at the time of its release. It's a solid sensor with great dynamic range, it's since lost it's luster in comparison to the newer Sony sensors.
That being said, most of the working professionals I meet are still using cameras as old as the 5DMII and the 5DMIII. When I photographed an auto show down in Detroit for GM, three of the people I was shooting alongside were using those older 5D cameras. None of them seemed to care a bit about the newer cameras. The other three shooters were me (5DMIV), other guy (Nikon D800), other other guy (Canon 1DX).

There were other photographers present who were paid for by the dozens of other companies that were there, I didn't even see a single mirrorless amongst them (though, I likely didn't meet all of the photographers, but a few individuals brought their own cameras and at least one of them looked like a Sony as represented by the orange metallic band around the lens).

In other words, Canon doesn't need to catch up much, they just have to keep up. Pros will use the gear that fits them.

 

[3kramd5]

And they still let you pick which of those options you want. They generally don't arbitrarily restrict things. Like if you want a red vehicle from Ford you're not forced to buy a F-150 because you can't get red on any other model.

Yes, they let you pick from the options they the arbitrarily allow on each model.

 

[Don Haines]

Who, car makers? No. They offer certain options in certain models.

Car analogies do not translate well into cameras because some people on the forum want something capable of towing a fifth wheel trailer, the size of a compact, handling of a Ferrari, mileage of a hybrid, and the price of an economy car.... and because Ford does not offer them a vehicle that does all this, FORD IS DOOMED!

 

[canonmike]

Continue reading...

Bring it on, Canon.

 

[caffetin]

canon is coocking something. to sony

 

[dtaylor]

An 80 Mpixel camera would a DLA less than f/5.6. EOS 80D has a DLA of f/6.0 and this is equivalent to a 60Mpixel FF camera!

OK not a problem for fast primes or zooms up to f/5.6. I guess after that it would just gradually (and not always obviously) degrade...

DLA is a misnomer because diffraction is not a hard limit. It is in fact a gradual degradation. The higher resolution sensor will still have the advantage well passed its DLA.

 

[dtaylor]

People are voting with their wallets. Canon's camera sales look to be in the start of a death spiral. Their camera sales are down 24.9% in Q2 of 2019 in terms of dollars

Nice sleight of hand there. Unit sales can be up yet revenue down on something as simple as the exchange rate. But if you can get someone to only look at revenue "it's a death spiral."

In terms of number of units it's 22% in ILC's and 17% for other digital cameras Q2/2019 to Q2/2018.

And now we're going to ignore that unit shipments for the industry are down 28.6% in ILCs and 19.2% for non-ILC cameras so far for 2019. Everyone is seeing a unit sales drop, but Canon dropped less than the others thereby increasing their total marketshare. I would agree with you that people are voting with their wallets. They're just not casting their votes according to your narrative.

They're projecting a loss of 17% and 18% for the year 2019 vs. 2018 for ILC's and other digital cameras respectively. They even admit as much.

So they're planning on beating the industry trend and gaining even more marketshare for the whole year. And this is a DEATH SPIRAL

As always: CANON. IS. DOOMED!

 

[dtaylor]

The second person who joined CR and immediately panned the R. What a coincidence!

Just an FYI to everyone here: paid influencers and bots are real things in the ad industry. In fact, they are much larger than you realize. Not going to accuse a specific account of that without hard evidence, but..."just joined this morning to tell you how much your camera sucks" isn't a good indicator

 

[melgross]

Sony also benefits from having Sony Semiconductor developing its sensor technology for the cell phone market. This currently is lucrative and provides Sony Semiconductor with a proving ground for its innovative products. Canon lacks this advantage.

I wonder if Canon could and would partner with Samsung.....

Canon could do it, if they wanted to. They are a semiconductor company and produce their own higher end sensors. I suppose they don’t think it’s worthwhile.

 

[tron]

DLA is a misnomer because diffraction is not a hard limit. It is in fact a gradual degradation. The higher resolution sensor will still have the advantage well passed its DLA.

Yes that's why I used the word gradually. And anyway it will have big advantage at or below DLA. Now where is my 5DsR II?

 

[Canon1966]

This is why I don’t just jump ship between brands. The industry is constantly evolving. The other reason for me is I like Canon ergonomics, colors and my workflow is down pretty well.

I think Canon has the best ergonomics in the industry, Nikon second... I also think Canon has best articulating screens.

 

[dtaylor]

Yes that's why I used the word gradually. And anyway it will have big advantage at or below DLA. Now where is my 5DsR II?

You and me both. When the day comes that I move to Canon's higher resolution sensor, I wouldn't mind having it in an R body AND in a DSLR.

 

[st jack photography]

Yep go ahead and reclaim that crown, Canon, but the highest mp means nothing when the sensor is 10 years old, not a BSI, has terrible DR, terrrible AF, crippled despite being capable, a burst speed from 1940s, probably shoot 3 RAW at 2fps before the buffer hangs up, requires an adapter to mount any of my tilt-shift lenses..... Pathetic. RF mount = worst mistake ever. R and Rp = worst full frame bodies on the market
I'll check it out, but as it stands I have never pulled my 5dsr out of the closet for personal art work since I bought a SONY Rx1rm2.

Pretty sure I am done with Canon anyway. All my glass works on Sony just fine, I get all the features I want, and my frustration level is at an all-time low. Guess what, even wifi works with just a button press! With Canon, you have to be a web engineer. Tethering for fast speeds or automated focus stacks with Canon? Um, forget about it. I had to send my 5dsr in 2 x to get the funky USB port changed out. TWICE! Just for regular product tethering. 5DSr is a joke.

Thanks for nothing, Canon. So what, these new M cameras will have an adapter too? An adapter for a aps-c mirrorless? You have got to be kidding! F$*@ Canon.

 

[tron]

Oh no, yet another one!