Canon's Definition of Gray Market

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RGF

How you relate to the issue, is the issue.
Jul 13, 2012
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rfdesigner said:
And to think, Canon/Nikon etc could shut down the grey market overnight simply by introducing a flat price worldwide.

But they try and charge customers in "rich" countries substantially more.. I don't have lots of sympathy.. but I do have far more for time for Canon as they still provide support for grey market and parts, unlike Nikon.. one more reason to stick with Canon.
actually very hard since currency fluctuates unless everyone bad in a single currency
 

rfdesigner

EOS 6D MK II
Sep 12, 2014
876
0
New Forest, UK
sites.google.com
RGF said:
rfdesigner said:
And to think, Canon/Nikon etc could shut down the grey market overnight simply by introducing a flat price worldwide.

But they try and charge customers in "rich" countries substantially more.. I don't have lots of sympathy.. but I do have far more for time for Canon as they still provide support for grey market and parts, unlike Nikon.. one more reason to stick with Canon.
actually very hard since currency fluctuates unless everyone bad in a single currency
bad.. paid?

actually no it's not hard at all.. it just means revisiting prices fairly frequently. Canon et al could just say RRP is X-yen or equivelent in your currency.

This is exactly what's happening on the grey market, and that functions.
 

RGF

How you relate to the issue, is the issue.
Jul 13, 2012
2,816
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rfdesigner said:
RGF said:
rfdesigner said:
And to think, Canon/Nikon etc could shut down the grey market overnight simply by introducing a flat price worldwide.

But they try and charge customers in "rich" countries substantially more.. I don't have lots of sympathy.. but I do have far more for time for Canon as they still provide support for grey market and parts, unlike Nikon.. one more reason to stick with Canon.
actually very hard since currency fluctuates unless everyone bad in a single currency
bad.. paid?

actually no it's not hard at all.. it just means revisiting prices fairly frequently. Canon et al could just say RRP is X-yen or equivelent in your currency.

This is exactly what's happening on the grey market, and that functions.
sorry typo - bad should be had.

agree gray market functions to a point. Except that home market support needs to be paid by someone Either local buyers since they get the benefit (in which gray market items don't support local market support) or from the parent company. But how should the parent company allocate $. If by sales, gray market items cause a miss allocation.

In the end gray market sales in small quantity don't matter but in large quantity can cause problems.

best way be to allow buyers of gray market products to transfer warrant to their home market (either free or for a small fee).
 

rfdesigner

EOS 6D MK II
Sep 12, 2014
876
0
New Forest, UK
sites.google.com
RGF said:
rfdesigner said:
RGF said:
rfdesigner said:
And to think, Canon/Nikon etc could shut down the grey market overnight simply by introducing a flat price worldwide.

But they try and charge customers in "rich" countries substantially more.. I don't have lots of sympathy.. but I do have far more for time for Canon as they still provide support for grey market and parts, unlike Nikon.. one more reason to stick with Canon.
actually very hard since currency fluctuates unless everyone bad in a single currency
bad.. paid?

actually no it's not hard at all.. it just means revisiting prices fairly frequently. Canon et al could just say RRP is X-yen or equivelent in your currency.

This is exactly what's happening on the grey market, and that functions.
sorry typo - bad should be had.

agree gray market functions to a point. Except that home market support needs to be paid by someone Either local buyers since they get the benefit (in which gray market items don't support local market support) or from the parent company. But how should the parent company allocate $. If by sales, gray market items cause a miss allocation.

In the end gray market sales in small quantity don't matter but in large quantity can cause problems.

best way be to allow buyers of gray market products to transfer warrant to their home market (either free or for a small fee).
I don't mind accounting for the increased cost of operating a repairs service in the UK vs china etc. in the purchase price, but if that's equal to 1/3rd the value of of a camera body pro rata then Canon are producing some pretty lousy stuff, and I just don't see that. (that would equate to 50% of cameras being written off and having to be replaced due to total loss)

The cost of selling in country has fallen significantly since online selling really took off, online reviews often tell us more than we can ascertain from even half an hour in a shop, so the need to handle the product before purchase is so much less (how many here pre-order?), so the need to pay high levels of business rates and lots of employees is vastly reduced as much of the business has been reduced to box shifting.

Yes prices in the west do need to be slightly higher to account for the increased cost of doing business here, but a 50% markup is just way too much, and that is the gaping canyon that the grey market sellers occupy.

i.e.

"official canon supplier"
http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/95327/Show.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLA&utm_term=EOS%205DS%20Digital%20SLR%20Body&gclid=CK-Q29_ry8gCFQgXwwodkMMMpg

"grey market"
http://www.hdewcameras.co.uk/canon-eos-5ds-digital-slr-body-3374-p.asp
 

zim

EOR R
Oct 18, 2011
1,863
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rfdesigner said:
Yes prices in the west do need to be slightly higher to account for the increased cost of doing business here, but a 50% markup is just way too much, and that is the gaping canyon that the grey market sellers occupy.

i.e.

"official canon supplier"
http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/95327/Show.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLA&utm_term=EOS%205DS%20Digital%20SLR%20Body&gclid=CK-Q29_ry8gCFQgXwwodkMMMpg

"grey market"
http://www.hdewcameras.co.uk/canon-eos-5ds-digital-slr-body-3374-p.asp
This is absolutely true ( and I'll hold my hands up here and say am an HDEW fanboy, I've had great service from them, easily as good as official outlets ) but it's worth pointing out they operate with reduced choice and the difference in price after rebates which seem to be almost constant now can narrow the gap significantly on grey suppliers. As an example I got a 24 pancake a while back from Jessops which after rebate was exactly the same price as from DRev, small item, small price but still, every pound's a prisoner!
 

martti

EOS 7D MK II
May 11, 2014
692
11
21.1144° S, 55.5325° E
Just a stupid 'Babe Pig' -type question: These grey market cameras are made by Canon or Nikon or whatever. How do the get to the 'grey' market? Are they stolen goods? Or refurbished warranty returns? If not, what is the story, Did Canon not guess what the guy who bought 100 5Ds bodies might do with them? If they are not OK with having grey market products around, why do they supply their middlemen?

The short answer might be 'money'.
Their right hand is all for customer service and warranty and everything with a big network of sales- and repairpeople and their administration. For this network they sell their products at a given price and tha Manufacturer's Resell Price allows for a little overhead so that the organisation is maintained and the shareholders get their percentage.

They want to sell more...the best way to sell more is to make a nice discount.
So you cut the customer service network out and with your left hand you sell directly to your overseas customers.
Here, the price does not include the repair and the salespersonnel so no repairs, sorry, sir.

This situation offers a business opportunity to 'liberal' repair shops who can be good or bad but that's your headache. Another solution is to have all the repairs mailed in and either supply the customer with a brand new item or fix the broken one, whichever is cheaper. I imagine having a professional spending three hours on a repair would amount to 1000± 15% dollars which would make the new item cheaper than the repair.

The market will change, that's for sure.

My own experience with the Tamron 24-70 lens thus far is that it ceased to autofocus. Tamron Europe in Germany, local Tamron in Mauritius and South Africa and Tamron Global, nobody wanted to have anything to do with the item that was bought from the 42nd Street Camera in NY. So now I sent it to New York. The guy said that they will take a look at it and probably send me another item if the repair is complicated.
They'd charge me a 'warranty' of about 400 dollars. Plus freight.

Which brings the price of the lens to the same as it would have been 'legally'.
Whatever, there is no repair service here on this island, everything has to be sent out. Deal with it.

BUT and this is a big BUT: A Canon lens would have survived the little knock that rendered the Tamron useless.
You get what you pay for. Unless, of course, you steal or rob without getting caught.
Like a banker.
 

Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
Nov 7, 2013
2,755
636
Germany
martti said:
Just a stupid 'Babe Pig' -type question: These grey market cameras are made by Canon or Nikon or whatever.
Not stupid and therefore entitled:
Those products normally are OEM products, legally produced and distributed by the namend companies.
But...
They are distributed for different countries/markets with different prices for the middlemen and the retailers. The reason therefore is to milk the regional markets most effective and to handle different
consumer rights laws and warranty regulations in different ways and therefore fund different service structures ind different ways.

How do the get to the 'grey' market? Are they stolen goods? Or refurbished warranty returns?
"No!" to all questions.
If not, what is the story
The story is that in some markets where the prices are lower the goods are purchased, transferred to countries where the normal price is higer and then sold for a lower price than normal in these local markets.
They become "grey" because they are sold in markets the OEMs didn't plan them to.

==> So a fine product, almost 100% identical to your non-grey-market product, but cheaper. And maybe with a manual in Chinese and the wrong battery charger (often replaced by OEM or counterfeit).

Except for counterfeit parts the only problem for you as a customer might be that if you have warranty or repair issue the local service center refuses to handle your product (or could do so).

You can now whine or shout about this kind of distribution strategy, but I don't believe it to change that fast.
Only way would be that countries built up trade agreements like the EU so there is a common market.

Further "stupid" ;) questions?
 

LDS

EOR R
Sep 14, 2012
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177
Hector1970 said:
12 Months warranty only means it's worth the risk of buying on the grey market.
If you're in EU - and you're not a "professional" customer - you have a mandatory 24 months warranty.
 

Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
Nov 7, 2013
2,755
636
Germany
LDS said:
Hector1970 said:
12 Months warranty only means it's worth the risk of buying on the grey market.
If you're in EU - and you're not a "professional" customer - you have a mandatory 24 months warranty.
And in addition if you have a service case after warranty time and are willing to pay for repair, the local service center could tell you to send the item to the repair center of the country where it had to be located - depending on the local regulations of the service center. I've heard about such cases, but not concerning photo equipment.

And that makes the whole thing a little bit more complicated for the customer.

Disclaimer, again: You can now whine or shout about this kind of distribution strategy, but I don't believe it to change that fast.
 

martti

EOS 7D MK II
May 11, 2014
692
11
21.1144° S, 55.5325° E
Like I said, official Tamron dealers did not want to hear about the lens that was bought from the U.S.
Once upon a time I had a grey market Olympus Tough that leaked. Olympus International sent me a newer version of the camera...which also leaked but only after I had sold it. I have repaired my grey market Canon things –outside warranty, crashes and salt water– in Sweden and in Finland and nobody ever asked any questions.

It is obvious that whichever way you get your gear, you have to pay the price sooner or later.
 

RGF

How you relate to the issue, is the issue.
Jul 13, 2012
2,816
35
martti said:
Like I said, official Tamron dealers did not want to hear about the lens that was bought from the U.S.
Once upon a time I had a grey market Olympus Tough that leaked. Olympus International sent me a newer version of the camera...which also leaked but only after I had sold it. I have repaired my grey market Canon things –outside warranty, crashes and salt water– in Sweden and in Finland and nobody ever asked any questions.

It is obvious that whichever way you get your gear, you have to pay the price sooner or later.
If Canon wanted to stop gray markets they could very simply. Warrant work needs to be performed in the country of original sale.

Except would be granted to retail buyers (1) who were traveling and had equipment failure and (2) travelers who personally purchased an item while traveling.
 

StudentOfLight

I'm on a life-long journey of self-discovery
Nov 2, 2013
1,444
1
37
Cape Town
In an ideal world I would expect Canon YY to invoice Canon XX for warranty repairs conducted in region YY on equipment which is bought from region XX. That way Canon XX pays for aftersales service on Canon XX equipment regardless of where the equipment is used. The customer's investment is protected and Canon YY can sustainably operate their CPS YY services. And Canon XX would need to up their prices in order to meet their aftersales service costs. Balance restored.
 

Maiaibing

EOS 6D MK II
Mar 7, 2014
1,054
2
Kabul
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tomscott said:
I buy all my gear "grey market" because here in the UK the import tax and electronics tax is ridiculous meaning the product is often 1/3 or more expensive then the US equivalent.
(...)

As you only get a 1 year warranty which is disgusting seen as tho the price is so high it doesn't matter anyway you will be paying for repairs. If it came with a 3 or 5 year warranty which seems normal to me… then the extra price hike would be worth it. But most retailers in the UK will charge £350+ for gear worth up to £2500 seen as tho most of my gear is over £1500 that price is just ridiculous.

Even as a working pro the likelihood of a product having a problem is so slim. Infact I've never had a problem under the 1 year mark. Canons products are so well built you should be getting a 3 year warranty with it as standard just like pretty much any other product.
The EU standard is a 2 year's warranty. Cannot imagine this is not the case for the UK.

This is a real reason for Canon to charge European customers more than US customers (apart from VAT/sales tax often being higher in the EU). Not that Canon and others are not over-charging European customers anyway. They are. Its just by less than people sometimes imagine.
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
rfdesigner said:
And to think, Canon/Nikon etc could shut down the grey market overnight simply by introducing a flat price worldwide.

But they try and charge customers in "rich" countries substantially more.. I don't have lots of sympathy.. but I do have far more for time for Canon as they still provide support for grey market and parts, unlike Nikon.. one more reason to stick with Canon.
of course that ignores the fact corp taxes regionally are different for the canon subsidiaries, so is distribution costs, employee costs and benefits,etc.

that means the cost for warranty service,etc is different for each region, making it impossible to do what you are wanting.
 

Orangutan

EOR R
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
rrcphoto said:
rfdesigner said:
And to think, Canon/Nikon etc could shut down the grey market overnight simply by introducing a flat price worldwide.

But they try and charge customers in "rich" countries substantially more.. I don't have lots of sympathy.. but I do have far more for time for Canon as they still provide support for grey market and parts, unlike Nikon.. one more reason to stick with Canon.
of course that ignores the fact corp taxes regionally are different for the canon subsidiaries, so is distribution costs, employee costs and benefits,etc.

that means the cost for warranty service,etc is different for each region, making it impossible to do what you are wanting.
+10
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,710
880
The importing and reselling gray market products for a profit (Cameras are just one example) is a form of Arbitrage. Its been done forever, lawsuits have and still are launched, virtually all lose, but a few have won.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_market

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrage

Costco, in its early years was unable to purchase many high end products from US distributors. The distributors did not want discounted prices. This caused Costco to import products like electronics, cameras, and watches. Costco offered a 1 year return if a product failed. They were sued, but won.

As Costco grew, so did their clout in the marketplace such that US distributors were forced to deal with them or risk losing market share to companies that did sell to Costco. Now, Costco and other big box stores account for a big portion of sales. But they started by selling gray market, and occasionally still do. Costco always warned the buyer when a product was gray market.

Sellers of high end products generally package extra optional items such as lenses, memory cards, and carry cases that are not available thru normal retail channels. They then sell them for the regular retail price, which amounts to free optional equipment. That's how they deal with discounted sales by big box sellers.
 

jeffa4444

EOS 6D MK II
Feb 28, 2013
1,476
116
66
I get fully the support costs that Canon locally (in my case UK) have to build into the selling price. Were told sales taxes make a difference which is true.

However even grey market items bought through a company in the UK have to pay sales tax so how come EVERY DEALER of Canon in the UK are selling the 5D MKIV at £ 3,599 (price fixing?) yet the grey importer who have to also pay shipping, duty & sales tax can currently sell the same body for £ 2,540. This difference does not represent an overhead charge for Canon UK & Warranty cost so it can only be profiteering off of the back of Brexit fears & hiding behind the ££ fall to the yen.

It would be interesting to see the sales figures in the UK which are one of Canon largest markets in Europe and whether the sales are holding up once past the early adopter phase.

I for one will not pay £ 3599 (around $ 4426 at $1.23) for the body its grossly over-priced at that figure.
 
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